No LED savings?

[PhredH]

I am considering re-lamping our T8 fluorescent tubes with LEDs. we have about 50 4ft fixtures with two tubes/fixture, every two fixtures (four tubes) are powered by one electronic ballast. The T8 tubes are Phillips F32T8/ADV850 High Performance 32 watts.

Measuring with a Kill a Watt meter by P3, (4) T8 tubes and the (1) ballast consume 97.5 watts or 0.8 amps.

http://www.p3international.com/products/p4400.html

I purchased two Zilorek ballast bypass LED tubes 18 watts, 5000K, 1800 lumens, wired them direct to 120v and the two bulbs consumed 41.6 watts and .37 amps. I am assuming that powering 4 of these tubes will consume twice the power or 83 watts/.74 amps.

if that is the case, there is only a 15% reduction in wattage consumed. I was expecting a much more dramatic savings. I ran this test three times with the same results.

Is my testing method correct, or are T8 with electronic ballasts actually quite efficient and most of the dramatic savings are when converting from magnetic ballast and T12 tubes?

Thanks in advance for any insights.

 

[kwschumm]

Florescents are quite efficient. The efficiency gap between florescent and LEDs is not huge.

 

[Hawk]

However over a longer term the LED should be more efficient longer term.

 

[cybrdyke]

Those lamps are ****. I honestly dont know where Menards digs up these 4th tier manufacturers and puts this junk on their shelves. It's pretty common for these types of manufacturers to inflate their numbers. There should be a "Lighting Facts" box on the packaging. It verifies that the claims by the manufacturer are valid. Same as a nutritional chart on food packaging. Without this information, it's buyer beware. I didn't see it shown on the website and normally it is.
Even still, the claim is that these 18w tubes only deliver 1800 lumens. That's pathetic. Comparatively, You can get a 15w tube that easily delivers 1900 lumens.
At 15 watts per 4 lamps you'd be at 60w total. That's just under 40% savings. Probably more like you expected.
You can also get a 12w tube that deliver about 1650 lumens. This is the most common tube used in office and school retrofits because it most closely delivers the same amount of light that the fluorescent T8's do. With these you'd be at 48 watts....the 50% savings that most folks are looking for.
Good luck,
CD

 

[ddawg16]

T-8's are pretty good bulbs when used with an electronic ballast.

The only way I"d replace is when the T-8's start failing. The LED will have the advantage of a much longer life.

 

[Bert_]

The LED will have the advantage of a much longer life.

That's not wrong if you get decent led's. Beware though, I have seen some led tubes with as little as a 30 or 35,000 hour life. Even if your using the cheapest fluorescent lamps they should last 20,000 hours. Most of the T8's I put in are better lamps with a 40,000 hour life.

Not all led's are equal, just because it says LED on the box doesn't mean it's better than anything else.

 

[pepi]

T-8's are pretty good bulbs when used with an electronic ballast.

The only way I"d replace is when the T-8's start failing. The LED will have the advantage of a much longer life.

Pretty much the way I see it, the replace frequency is extended using LEDs. Les not forget the elimination of the ballast another plus.

Greg

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I replaced all my T12's with LED, and I'm very happy. If I'd had T8's, I probably wouldn't have bothered to upgrade for a while.

 

[PhysicsDude]

The upper tier florescent T8s and T5s are pretty close to the lower tier LEDs as far as efficiency goes.

The LEDs might be producing a little more light, bringing their real efficiency up a little bit, but %15-%20 difference in efficiency doesn't surprise me.

 

[Bert_]

The upper tier florescent T8s and T5s are pretty close to the lower tier LEDs as far as efficiency goes.

The LEDs might be producing a little more light, bringing their real efficiency up a little bit, but %15-%20 difference in efficiency doesn't surprise me.

Some of the cheap led's are LESS efficient than a standard T8

 

[cybrdyke]

The upper tier florescent T8s and T5s are pretty close to the lower tier LEDs as far as efficiency goes.

To me, 20% is a pretty good gap, considering you're comparing the worst LED to the best fluorescent.

Some of the cheap led's are LESS efficient than a standard T8

Both comments understate LED and exaggerate fluorescent.
There's no match between the two.

Bad LED tubes, like the ones the OP posted, are in the 100 DLPW range. Good ones are well over 130.
Top Shelf T8's can barely make 80 DLPW without using special equipment. T5HO can barely make 85.

And life ratings aren't even close. Fluorescent life rating is a 50% death rating, so even with the good lamps at 40,000 hours, HALF of the fluorescents are DEAD. At 40,000 hours, ALL of LED's are still burning. This is a huge advantage for LED.

CD

 

[cybrdyke]

I'll offer this example, using the OP's 50 fixtures, comparing using standard T8 lamps and typical LED bypass tubes. For discussion, lets use 3000 annual burn hours and 10c/KwHr.
Energy use:
T8's: 2950 watts. That's $885 in energy costs.
LED: 1800 watts. $540 in energy costs
Initial cost of materials and energy will be equal around 9000 hours.
Lumen Output
Standard T8 delivers around 1800 lumens.
Typical LED bypass tubes are 1800 to 2000 lumens. Call it a draw.
Total Lumens after 24,000 hours of use.
Standard T8: 81,000 lumens. 50 of the 100 lamps are burned out, the other 50 have diminshed by over 10%.
LED: 153,000 lumens. All the lamps are working. They have diminished about 15%.
Maintenance
T8: User will have to change 50 lamps before 24,000 hours and 50 more soon after. In a commercial setting, these lamps are required to be treated as hazardous waste and must be disposed of properly at a cost of around $2.50 per lamp.
LED: User wont have to change any lamps until he feels the space has become too dark. Expired lamps contain no hazardous materials.

The figures are practically the same for LED ballast-ready tubes as they are for ballast bypass tubes, so the OP could go either way.

CD

 

[coljar]

I don't know how efficient the LED Hyperikon brand tubes I got from Amazon are, but I like the fact that they are brighter than the T-8 were and they are bright the second I hit the switch.

 

[jonshonda]

Florescents are quite efficient. The efficiency gap between florescent and LEDs is not huge.

Not even close to being a true statement. Regardless of the fact good quality Led's with quality optics will be much more efficient with regards to lm/w, the simple fact fluorescent tubes emit light in a 360* radius, and have to bounce roughly 50% of their output off a reflector (which greatly reduces output) means they will never be as efficient as a directional LED.

There is a reason everything is moving towards LED and it isn't a marketing gimmick. The future of lighting is LED. But if you only run lights a few hours a day and don't have to deal with cold conditions, fluorescent is still a great option.

 

[yeldogt]

Not even close to being a true statement. Regardless of the fact good quality Led's with quality optics will be much more efficient with regards to lm/w, the simple fact fluorescent tubes emit light in a 360* radius, and have to bounce roughly 50% of their output off a reflector (which greatly reduces output) means they will never be as efficient as a directional LED.

There is a reason everything is moving towards LED and it isn't a marketing gimmick. The future of lighting is LED. But if you only run lights a few hours a day and don't have to deal with cold conditions, fluorescent is still a great option.

In many situations you can't build with anything but LED fixtures ... it's the future. That said there is a lot of LED junk around

 

[kwschumm]

In many situations you can't build with anything but LED fixtures ... it's the future. That said there is a lot of LED junk around

My opinion of LEDs is pretty low due to so many bad experiences. Brand name LED bulbs with 20,000 hour ratings dying after a week or two and LED flickering have me pretty much disgusted with them. These problems are not the fault of the LEDs themselves, but with crappy power electronics and race to the bottom cheaposity.

 

[kwschumm]

There is a reason everything is moving towards LED and it isn't a marketing gimmick. The future of lighting is LED. But if you only run lights a few hours a day and don't have to deal with cold conditions, fluorescent is still a great option.

Here are some other reasons everything is moving to LED. Energy efficiency laws, environmental laws, commodity diodes, and cheap manufacturing costs.

Anyone dolt can make an LED light up, and it seems that many do. Harbor Freight could make a killing.

 

[ForceFed70]

Did the math when I considered lighting options. With 6hrs/day of anticipated use LED lighting was going to take 15-20 years before the energy savings would pay off the higher purchase price.

As mentioned, T8 is already reasonably efficient and many people assume that the efficiency difference between T8 and LED is greater than what it actually is.

 

[DEXTERBBQ]

Something to also consider is the beam spread of some of the replacement LED tubes. A fluorescent lamp has a 360 degree beam spread and most cases relies on a reflector to bounce the light where it needs to go. A good LED replacement might have a 280 degree or even more focused beam spread and does not have to rely on the reflector to get its lumens to where they need to go. So a 1800 lumen T8 Fluorescent in many cases is not as bright as a 1800 lumen LED replacement that has the narrow beam spread. You many not need as many LED replacements because the light is focused, for example downward towards the work surface. Usable lumens so to speak.

Satco, Keystone, Sylvania, Philips are all companies that make great replacement LED tubes and all offer some type of "focus" beam spread that makes their LED tube more efficient in usable light. If you buy a "focused" LED replacement tube just make sure you install it so that its focusing its light where it should be.

In some cases you might want 360 degree spread. A good example would be a shop fixture with up lighting (slots cut into the top of the reflector).

There's more than one variable to take into consideration when doing an energy audit when considering re-lamping with LED.

Hopefully I'm not confusing the issue. Just trying to point out some of the not so obvious savings/benefits of LED.

 

[kwschumm]

Effective lighting is a mix of direct and reflected light. Isn't it possible that a T8 flourescent with reflector might have a more pleasing dispersion of light? Think of the shadows your body creates when it blocks direct light.

 

[Falcon67]

I'm changing to LEDs because they work better, real instant on/bright when in use, no flicker or "swimming" while the tubes get right with the world. The brand name T8s I have are not that nice, especially in colder weather even with zero start ballasts. Energy savings is a by product. There isn't going to be a payback unless they really last their 50,000 hr life. Which is iffy.

 

[ddawg16]

Each has it's advantages.

I have all cans (with LED's) in the 1st floor of my garage....and 4' tubes on the second floor. As time permits, the tubes are coming out and LED strip lighting going in. The T8's take up too much space.

Consider this....The fluorescent bulb is pretty much at it's limit on technology. The LED still has a lot of wiggle room.

LED's also have the advantage of more options on color and being dimmable.

Right now there is not that much of a difference....but another year from now, all bets are off.

In the case of needing to replace a ballast....LED is a good replacement option.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

With that many fixtures, I wouldn't worry about upgrading to LED unless you start to having issues with the T8 bulbs or ballasts failing. The performance and savings differences are not great enough to justify the cost, in my opinion.

If you had all T12 fixtures, I would definitely consider the LED upgrade. The lighting output and performance is worth the upgrade alone, regardless of savings.

 

[Jim Dawson]

I'm soon going to have to replace my 9 cheap Menard's 4" LED fixtures. They are 2 years old and are getting so dim that I turn on the overheard garage door opener light to brighten things up. I don't know what to get to avoid this in the future as I'd like to get more than 3 years out of them.

 

[Showkey]

This comparison was done In 2015 when LED Drop in bulbs were at a much higher price. It was FEIT drop in LED compared to Slyvania T8.

“Clarification and more info...
The T8 are about 6 months old.
They were on for 5 minutes when the LUX reading was taken.
The LED draw .34 amps at 124.2 volts.
T8 draw .60 amps at 124.2 volts
The LUX values are exactly the same as measure prior. The meter is 77" from the bulbs and 16" left of the center of the mixture. Moving the meter centered below the LED increased LUx to 672, T8 not measured in the center.”

44% less power and 30 % more LUX output ..........when the price drops this might be a no brainier ....IF ......the life span is what they say ???????

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302649&highlight=Comparison


The FEIT LED are still service in 3 different locations with with no issues.
Short time later Sylvania Drop in LED were tried purchased from Menards ( better price) but there was a compatibly issue with a few of the fixtures......the bulbs were returned.

 

[CJ7VFR]

.... this might be a no brainier ....IF ......the life span is what they say ???????....

That is currently the issue I have with the LED bulbs.

A claim of 10 or more years of service from any of the LED bulbs we can buy for our homes or garages, at this time, is just that, a claim.

The LED bulbs that we can buy have not been around long enough to accurately make that claim yet. The manufactures can do testing, and try to simulate "time" by running the bulbs thru different environments, different heating/cooling cycles, wet/dry conditions, on/off cycles and everything else, to simulate 10 or more years of use. But in the end it is just that, a simulation.

Once the bulbs have been available and put into actual use for 10 or more years, in real world situations, can you make a real world comparison of LED bulbs to other types like fluorescent bulbs, that have been around for decades.

I have 4 foot T8 fluorescent bulbs in shop lights in my garage that have been there, and working, since I moved into my house 8 years ago. I have not had to change a single bulb yet due to failure. My garage lights are on about 3 hours a day, 3 times a week on average.

Now, are they putting out less lumens now that they are old? Probably. Would LED replacements loose lumens over that same time? Maybe. No one actually knows for sure, because none of the replacement bulbs have been around for 8 years yet. At least not ones that I could have purchased back in 2010.

When we moved in here in 2010, I also replaced all the incandescent bulbs in all of the light fixtures in the house with compact fluorescent bulbs to help save some money on our electric bill. And it has. The downside is that the colder it is in the house, the longer it takes for the lights to come on full bright. Especially in the kitchen.

Now, 8 years later, I am starting to replace those compact fluorescent bulbs with new LED bulbs when the LED's go on sale a big box stores. I can now get Edison A19 LED bulbs, in different wattages, for less than a dollar a piece. Just as a reference, in those 8 years, only one BR30 style compact fluorescent bulb burned out in my entire house. If the new LED bulbs last that long, I will be happy.

But as you said, I won't know if the new LED bulbs that I am putting in will last 8 years until 8 actual years from now. So I don't take any LED manufactures claims at longevity seriously at this point. Not the high end bulb makers or the cheap bulb makers.

Jim

 

[kwschumm]

That is currently the issue I have with the LED bulbs.

A claim of 10 or more years of service from any of the LED bulbs we can buy for our homes or garages, at this time, is just that, a claim.

The LED bulbs that we can buy have not been around long enough to accurately make that claim yet. The manufactures can do testing, and try to simulate "time" by running the bulbs thru different environments, different heating/cooling cycles, wet/dry conditions, on/off cycles and everything else, to simulate 10 or more years of use. But in the end it is just that, a simulation.

Once the bulbs have been available and put into actual use for 10 or more years, in real world situations, can you make a real world comparison of LED bulbs to other types like fluorescent bulbs, that have been around for decades.

I have 4 foot T8 fluorescent bulbs in shop lights in my garage that have been there, and working, since I moved into my house 8 years ago. I have not had to change a single bulb yet due to failure. My garage lights are on about 3 hours a day, 3 times a week on average.

Now, are they putting out less lumens now that they are old? Probably. Would LED replacements loose lumens over that same time? Maybe. No one actually knows for sure, because none of the replacement bulbs have been around for 8 years yet. At least not ones that I could have purchased back in 2010.

When we moved in here in 2010, I also replaced all the incandescent bulbs in all of the light fixtures in the house with compact fluorescent bulbs to help save some money on our electric bill. And it has. The downside is that the colder it is in the house, the longer it takes for the lights to come on full bright. Especially in the kitchen.

Now, 8 years later, I am starting to replace those compact fluorescent bulbs with new LED bulbs when the LED's go on sale a big box stores. I can now get Edison A19 LED bulbs, in different wattages, for less than a dollar a piece. Just as a reference, in those 8 years, only one BR30 style compact fluorescent bulb burned out in my entire house. If the new LED bulbs last that long, I will be happy.

But as you said, I won't know if the new LED bulbs that I am putting in will last 8 years until 8 actual years from now. So I don't take any LED manufactures claims at longevity seriously at this point. Not the high end bulb makers or the cheap bulb makers.

Jim

It seems like they rate them by the lifespan of the most reliable component, the LED. They don't do actual MTBF calculations of the fixture as a whole. The units are only as reliable as the weakest link, which includes connectors, bad solder joints, and poor thermal and environmental engineering.

 

[nh_yota]

You may want to check with your local utility and see what energy efficiency rebates/programs/subsidies they offer.

 

[CJ7VFR]

You may want to check with your local utility and see what energy efficiency rebates/programs/subsidies they offer.

This is good advice. In my town, every year they send us a township calendar. In the calendar are coupons for things you can buy locally.

One of the coupons I use every year is from my local hardware store when they have LED light bulbs on sale. With the coupon we can buy them at just a few pennies more than at the local big box stores.

I like to support our local businesses, and this gives people an incentive to do so.

Jim