No more snap-on for me

[Mr_B]

^
If I had spent purely on tool trucks many years back I wouldn't of been able start my own auto repair business and have success and lifestyle I happy with .
The reality is you got cherry pick who does what best and on what tools you really benefit with snapon style warranty .
If you don't mix it up you missing out on some great/better tools and your finances are missing some digits .
Snapons biggest issue is they not transitioned well with the modern era and in last decade alone not really been that innovative at basic hand tool level . air and battery line is technically average and price/warranty appalling deal on anything electrical and air bar 1or 1 or 2 acceptations .
If you look outside of USA then snapon gets even worse as prices higher, warranty less honoured and lot of the lineup not US made .

 

[putergod]

It covered more Stanley companies than what you listed and it is a dirty practice.

https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cases/1999/06/stanleyworkscmp.htm

There is a big difference of being made in the USA or just having the chrome polished in the States and calling it "made in USA" which is a big part of what they were doing. Not to mention being caught twice.......

A. the 1999 ruling consisted of several companies.
B. I said "Stanley". I said nothing about what brands, because the ruling doesn't specifically list what brands and products.
C. You post a complaint, not the ruling. I posted the ruling.
D. We get it, you like to ride Snap-On's jock. Go ride it. No one here cares!
E. Nearly EVERY company has failed to meet the FTC standard, most don't get busted for it. Not to mention the standard is semi subjective since the FTC refused to name a percentage.
F. I still stand behind every word I said. Be a troll, don't be a troll, I don't care.

 

[jimindm]

These SO threads really are fun to read.

Anyone should buy tools that make them happy, are useful to them, and get the job done. What ever that brand is, good for you.

Personally I buy mostly SO off the truck. I get some at auctions and other sales. I have many business relationships, and the tool guy is just one of them. You guys can argue about tools, oil, parts and whatever else you desire. I buy what is convenient to me to use and sell.

If I need parts I call the parts store and they walk in the door later in the day. If I need tires, I call the tire guy and he walks in the door later in the day. When I need tools, I buy them from the guy that walks in the door, once a week.

Call me silly all you want, but tools to me are an investment. I have make a living using them. I am no different than anyone else wanting to get the job done easier or with less body stress. This relates to a lot of other jobs also, that really never get mentioned. Thinking the outdoor guys that buy lawn equipment every year. Not because it is wore out, but because it rides better, is lighter than last years model, cuts better, and the list goes on.

Something that has not been mentioned is the resale of said brands of tools. Go to auctions or flea markets much. There will be a whole box of your NAPA , Blackhawk, thorsen, craftsman, and everything else. Marked a dollar a tool. But the SO stuff will be up on the shelf with a lot bigger price on it. I have been in the business long enough now, that I am offered trade value of tools that is way more than I paid for them new.

As far as SO as a company, one would have no idea how diversified they are, and not just the automotive field, but to any field that uses tools. Had a dealer for almost twenty years that moved up to the corporate side and done the industrial side. I asked him a few years later what the biggest differences were. He said he seldom prices anything. Because when he sells now, it is not one of anything but 10, 100, or a 1000 of one thing.

Of coarse he sells some to the maintenance guys and such, but the manufacturers tool crib may only have seven drill bits, or six wrenches, or eleven impacts. It is all stuff that the company wants an abundance of, that will not shut the line down.

He also showed my what he had available to them. Even he thought it was incredible what SO owned and could provide, that was never listed in a franchises catalog.

Didn't read the whole report, but the sales numbers that were listed for SO as a company is a lot higher than what was listed above. This second quarter of 2021 report list net sales as $1,081.4 million.

 

[M635_Guy]

Some clueless people in this thread still spreading the myth that most of the purchasing price goes into the tool truck guys pocket because "it's an expensive business to run". I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. Roughly 25% of catalog sales (no-show/promo packs) is actual profit and that's BEFORE their overhead. Most of that $160 ratchet price tag goes into Snap-ons bank account. Not the dealers, not to mention whatever they're fleecing the dealer for in interest on loans because most can't afford their inventory in cash. Meanwhile it probably cost Snap-on about $25 to make, package, and ship that $160 ratchet.

It is a very hard business model to make a good living from and the truck brands arent helping the matter with their massively jacked up prices because it makes them far more niche than they could be. When they keep raising prices for dealers make more? Sure, a bit. But they've priced themselves so high it's causing far more damage as more and more people balk at the price and buy something else.

I looked a while back, and it seems like SO's net profit margin was somewhere around 20%. My guess is the running margin for the trucks is somewhere in that neighborhood. Neither of those are crazy profit margins (though I'm going to guess there are other revenue/profit streams that can add to that for the truck guys, but whatever).

That would indicate the fully-burdened cost of that ratchet as it goes out the door from Snap On is pretty high. There's no value-judgement in that statement. They work hard to put things in/around the product that their customers value to command the price. Whether I agree with what you get for that money is worth it doesn't really matter - I'm not the guy they're targeting. And I doubt many tool-truck guys live in mansions - the good/smart ones probably make really good money though.

I’ve made a couple warranty claims at HF. It was really easy, walk in the door with my broken tool and tell a cashier I’m needing to do a warranty exchange. Walk over get new tool and go through checkout line, they scan it and keep broken tool and I go out the door. Easy.

I wasn't trying to say it wasn't easy, just that it's potentially less-convenient/fast than the NAPA experience (breaking up a kit to replace the one tool, fewer stores, what happens if they've discontinued the set or replaced the part #, etc.).

I definitely agree that HF is likely to be relatively easy.

It really isn't about speed IMO. Most items have a nearly ridiculous forever warranty, even against wear. Many companies won't consider a defects/workmanship warranty on pliers with worn away teeth or a hammer that finally got a loose head. Now, this only works if you stick around in the industry and can "beat" the warranty cost. I gambled on the rebranded Malco vice-grips - if I warranty 1 worn out pair I will have actually saved money vs. buying Malco twice. I'm down to $25/per for their $125+ hammer. I picked up a brass one through them for approx. 50% more than a comparable weight USA brass hammer. But when I warranty the mushroomed and chipped away head I'm now ahead. A lube tech that buys that hammer and quits after 9 months obviously loses in that equation.

Warranty cost is built into the tool, do you gamble you can beat the warranty? Do you buy cheaper things and self-warranty? IMO the most valuable thing the trucks have to offer to most consumers is payment structures built into the price. That, and specialty tools on exclusivity agreements prior to mainstream release, and special tools they make themselves.

I think a lot of what HF does to keep their prices low is essentially take warranty risk out of their pricing model. The products that have a "Lifetime" warranty are generally stuff that doesn't break a lot and is cost-captured in their pricing model to cover what does.

Stuff that has a 90-day warranty isn't engineered to fail on day 91. Most electric products are going to fail in half that time if they have a defect (or poor design), especially if used regularly. After that 3-month-or-so window, the failure rate drops and you then see the failure rate from use-driven, cyclical things. The better your design/materials, the better the long-term reliability can be. (All of that is from being in the industry for 30 years, the rest of this is an educated guess) HF is just taking that second phase cost out of the price and offering it as an extended warranty. They have incentive to make sure their products don't have a high (relative) failure rate for both cost reasons and customer relations, but they don't have to accrue a lot of warranty money on their books, which makes them pretty lean. That doesn't mean the $20 grinder is a generational tool for sure - use it hard and it probably won't last long, but most of the stories I've heard here and elsewhere are along the lines of "I'm shocked this thing is as good as it is for twenty bucks". I just looked and saw the warranty on the US General carts are also 90 days. I didn't really think about that when I bought my USG chest and cart, but it falls under the same paradigm - most of what is going to go wrong with that is going to happen right away or after years of using it. I wouldn't have paid extra to add a longer warranty there if I'd thought about it - there's nothing in the reviews to say they're flimsy and if I really wanted "lifetime" coverage I could have bought Icon or another non-HF brand.

So all of that to say: Yes - as long as I'm paying less, sometimes I gamble on warranty. Not for a tool I want to count on or use regularly, but for something that is "need for a single task now and maybe another sometime in the future", "so cheap I don't mind replacing it at that price" or "unlikely to fail if it can get past the first 90 days", I can deal with it if the math is right for me.

 

[Finance Guy]

Snap On is a public company which means those numbers are provided to shareholders.....try google. Took me 15 seconds to get those numbers of their financial updates.

Yes, Snap On is a public company ... so I went and looked at the 2020 10-K filed with the SEC. I reiterate that Snap-On does not disclose the composition of sales for subsidiary companies, only for the reportable segments.

Snap On's two auto-related segments (Snap-On Tools Group and Repair Systems and Information Group) generated sales of $2.6 billion in 2020, while the Commercial and Industrial segment - which does include Williams - generated sales of less than $1 billion.

Maybe 15 seconds really isn't enough...

 

[M635_Guy]

These SO threads really are fun to read.

Anyone should buy tools that make them happy, are useful to them, and get the job done. What ever that brand is, good for you.

Personally I buy mostly SO off the truck. I get some at auctions and other sales. I have many business relationships, and the tool guy is just one of them. You guys can argue about tools, oil, parts and whatever else you desire. I buy what is convenient to me to use and sell.

If I need parts I call the parts store and they walk in the door later in the day. If I need tires, I call the tire guy and he walks in the door later in the day. When I need tools, I buy them from the guy that walks in the door, once a week.

Call me silly all you want, but tools to me are an investment. I have make a living using them. I am no different than anyone else wanting to get the job done easier or with less body stress. This relates to a lot of other jobs also, that really never get mentioned. Thinking the outdoor guys that buy lawn equipment every year. Not because it is wore out, but because it rides better, is lighter than last years model, cuts better, and the list goes on.

Something that has not been mentioned is the resale of said brands of tools. Go to auctions or flea markets much. There will be a whole box of your NAPA , Blackhawk, thorsen, craftsman, and everything else. Marked a dollar a tool. But the SO stuff will be up on the shelf with a lot bigger price on it. I have been in the business long enough now, that I am offered trade value of tools that is way more than I paid for them new.

As far as SO as a company, one would have no idea how diversified they are, and not just the automotive field, but to any field that uses tools. Had a dealer for almost twenty years that moved up to the corporate side and done the industrial side. I asked him a few years later what the biggest differences were. He said he seldom prices anything. Because when he sells now, it is not one of anything but 10, 100, or a 1000 of one thing.

Of coarse he sells some to the maintenance guys and such, but the manufacturers tool crib may only have seven drill bits, or six wrenches, or eleven impacts. It is all stuff that the company wants an abundance of, that will not shut the line down.

He also showed my what he had available to them. Even he thought it was incredible what SO owned and could provide, that was never listed in a franchises catalog.

Didn't read the whole report, but the sales numbers that were listed for SO as a company is a lot higher than what was listed above. This second quarter of 2021 report list net sales as $1,081.4 million.

Great post. I'd only quibble a bit to say that the degree to which SO tools retain their value (or even increase over many years) is not really the argument in my mind - put the difference in $$$ in your IRA/401K and that money is working harder for you when you're ready to cash out and walk away.

But overall you're describing the business value, which is where the tool-truck model works by making problems/complexity disappear. I totally get that. My issues come with the burden their pricing model puts on a new tech and whether that guy is making an informed/smart decision, but I don't live in that world. For an established tech I completely get the value of the relationship and not having to worry about the tools.

That's really the dividing line - pros who are valuing something beyond the tool itself (or consciously making a decision to not buy into that value-model) and non-pros who don't really need or value those benefits and are just looking at a $162 ratchet vs. what they can walk into a store and buy.

 

[jimindm]

I think you are partially correct. But at which point does the guy starting out decide he has the aptitude to become a higher level guy and start buying better tools?

The one thing that has not been mentioned is much of what you are buying off the truck is payment availability. Earn while you use it. The other thing that was mentioned is that dealers come to you. I can take care of 90% of my tool buying needs in 15 minutes a week. There was a thread not that long ago about what is your time worth. I can take care of buying , warranty, and everything else in just minutes.

I would guess dealers get way better deals than just 20% of list. To be honest, 20% mark up is not a very good business model any more. I have been to several dealer close out, due to retirement and such, and much of it is 40% of list price. Cash out the door.

I would say that SO likely does incentivize the dealers with programs. Many are likely tool deals, but I would guess more from writing contracts selling big ticket items. Boxes, scan tools and shop equipment. To many times I have seen a scan tool marked down if financing it, and get a 10% certificate in tools to purchase off the truck. There is usually programs that are sort of cash back if financing.

One thing I would say about their scanners and such, is they do nor really change to much in them, as far as how you do the testing or how it sort of works. If you had a modis way back when, the new zues is pretty much has the same type of navigation properties. Another thing is they have many component testing features set up and ready to go. Not saying others do not.

 

[qqzj]

Only hist

I'm down to $25/per for their $125+ hammer. I picked up a brass one through them for approx. 50% more than a comparable weight USA brass hammer. But when I warranty the mushroomed and chipped away head I'm now ahead.

This is exactly the reason most people should not buy SO. They will never be able to get even or ahead. The people who pay $125 for each hammer financed your $25 hammers.

 

[FMB4]

OT, but the MC trade school I attended in '80/81 had a fair number of graduates that entered the trade with a large SK tool debt on their shoulders. Sure, the trade school repeatedly stated that we'd all be making something like $40 an hour (which, of course, turned out to be untrue 99.9% of the time). That said, if I was starting out from 'scratch' today I'd consider the HD Husky line of tools (which are now touted to be chrome vanadium rather than just high carbon steel). I say this because Craftsman is either dead, or dying. Above that I'd go with modern Proto USA. But that's just me.

Note: I'm fan of made in the USA Proto, SO, Mac, and SK tools. I'd throw Williams in with the rest, but I have no experience with the brand.

 

[putergod]

OT, but the MC trade school I attended in '80/81 had a fair number of graduates that entered the trade with a large SK tool debt on their shoulders. Sure, the trade school repeatedly stated that we'd all be making something like $40 an hour (which, of course, turned out to be untrue 99.9% of the time). That said, if I was starting out from 'scratch' today I'd consider the HD Husky line of tools (which are now touted to be chrome vanadium rather than just high carbon steel). I say this because Craftsman is either dead, or dying. Above that I'd go with modern Proto USA. But that's just me.

Note: I'm fan of made in the USA Proto, SO, Mac, and SK tools. I'd throw Williams in with the rest, but I have no experience with the brand.

I've got several Williams tools, and they are certainly serviceable. About 2/3's are Taiwanese Williams, and 1/3 USA Williams. I will say that when I compare them, the US Williams does look and feel better, but all are serviceable.

 

[wreckdiver1321]

But overall you're describing the business value, which is where the tool-truck model works by making problems/complexity disappear. I totally get that. My issues come with the burden their pricing model puts on a new tech and whether that guy is making an informed/smart decision, but I don't live in that world. For an established tech I completely get the value of the relationship and not having to worry about the tools.

That's really the dividing line - pros who are valuing something beyond the tool itself (or consciously making a decision to not buy into that value-model) and non-pros who don't really need or value those benefits and are just looking at a $162 ratchet vs. what they can walk into a store and buy.

Remember though, the onus there is on the tech to make that decision. Snap-On is a tool retailer/manufacturer, not a financial management service. They're just trying to sell tools, so they don't really have an obligation to ensure their buyers are making smart financial decisions.

I think the big thing there is a lot of new techs make poor financial decisions and go into massive debt to fund tool kits. They need the tools, Snap-On shows up with their truck full of shiny stuff, and the new tech gets financed because it's situationally easy. He's there, he needs tools, the tool truck is there, the dealer is offering financing, deal closed. It's smarter (in my opinion) for the tech to go to the hardware store and get decent stuff that isn't going to bankrupt him, drop it in a US General toolbox, and use that kit for a few years. Once he earns the money and sticks with it long enough to start needing more/higher quality tools, he should replace/upgrade/buy as necessary.

People can rag on Snap-On all they want for being too expensive or whatever, but in the end it's the obligation of the purchaser to make the value decision. It's not on Snap-On. You can't force people to buy your products, you can only convince them to. If someone is not a fan of they way they do business, they shouldn't do business with them.

*Important Disclaimer: I do not own any Snap-On tools, or even any Mac, Proto, Matco, etc. I'm just a guy with a beer and an opinion.

 

[magicrat]

I have 2 snap on KRL boxes and I’m fully stocked with snap on ratchets and sockets. Other than about two screwdrivers none of it was bought off the truck. Ebay, Craigslist and offer up. I would say gearwrench is the way to go. Hazet Facom, Williams, Channellock, knipex, malco and others make fantastic tools. I do think that flex head ratchets and flex wrenches From snap on and Matco have a place because of ease of warranty. Nobody likes a floppy tool

 

[putergod]

Remember though, the onus there is on the tech to make that decision. Snap-On is a tool retailer/manufacturer, not a financial management service. They're just trying to sell tools, so they don't really have an obligation to ensure their buyers are making smart financial decisions.

I think the big thing there is a lot of new techs make poor financial decisions and go into massive debt to fund tool kits. They need the tools, Snap-On shows up with their truck full of shiny stuff, and the new tech gets financed because it's situationally easy. He's there, he needs tools, the tool truck is there, the dealer is offering financing, deal closed. It's smarter (in my opinion) for the tech to go to the hardware store and get decent stuff that isn't going to bankrupt him, drop it in a US General toolbox, and use that kit for a few years. Once he earns the money and sticks with it long enough to start needing more/higher quality tools, he should replace/upgrade/buy as necessary.

People can rag on Snap-On all they want for being too expensive or whatever, but in the end it's the obligation of the purchaser to make the value decision. It's not on Snap-On. You can't force people to buy your products, you can only convince them to. If someone is not a fan of they way they do business, they shouldn't do business with them.

*Important Disclaimer: I do not own any Snap-On tools, or even any Mac, Proto, Matco, etc. I'm just a guy with a beer and an opinion.

You're not wrong.

However, in the old days, a tech with a US General tool box would be heavily ridiculed by his peers - prompting the new mechanic to go into debt with the Snap-On guy. I don't know how the new generation of mechanics are, and if it's still just as bad, but it certainly used to be.

 

[wreckdiver1321]

You're not wrong.

However, in the old days, a tech with a US General tool box would be heavily ridiculed by his peers - prompting the new mechanic to go into debt with the Snap-On guy. I don't know how the new generation of mechanics are, and if it's still just as bad, but it certainly used to be.

Having spent a lot of time working with mechanics and other skilled tradesmen, I can say with authority that the **** talk would be there regardless of tool box brand.

 

[Hiball]

The idea that a Snap on dealer is going to extend large amounts of truck credit to a fresh hire is a GJ fallacy based off my discussions with various dealers. Obviously like most retailers they do offer alternate avenues of financing and I suspect they do push them as much as possible as it protects there bottom line.

I also think a lot of members discount today’s new techs. The cost of solely doing business with any of the mobile avenues while trying to fill a toolbox to cover most jobs would be too much to swallow for a initial investment.

It’s a great time to acquire quality tools, Like most consumers today, we all have smart phones and love to read reviews and Brand X isn’t the only one winning in the search department.