Noco LifeP04 battery

[tearapin]

I have a Noco battery in my motorcycle. I have a charger for my RC helicopter hobby and am wanting to use it to charge the NOCO. I assume the NOCO is 4 LIFEp04 cells based on the voltage. Note that in the motorcycle there is no balancing circuitry so I assume the battery is being fed straight volts.

NOCO is very tight lipped about questions so I figured I would ask here.

1) The battery does have an onboard management system. I am not sure if Noco brand chargers interface with it or if it just acts as a stand alone processor to regulate straight voltage and the battery management system does the balancing? There is no balance port on the NOCO battery. That said I really do not know if NOCO chargers balance or like I said if the battery management system handles that.
2) I can control voltage via my RCC charger. I know the battery tops out at charge to 1.6 it rests at 12.8 to 13. What should I set my cutoff voltage to?
3) Any other tips?

 

[5ubtle]

Is your NOCO battery in a motorcycle that originally came with a lead-acid battery? If so, the NOCO should do fine with just a lead-acid charger.

 

[tearapin]

Is your NOCO battery in a motorcycle that originally came with a lead-acid battery? If so, the NOCO should do fine with just a lead-acid charger.

Yes it is...but I think the voltage cut offs are different between the battery chemistries.

 

[dcg9381]

It looks like several models of these for MCs are LiFePO4. LiFePO4 charges to a higher peak voltage than lead acid. If you've got an RC lithium charger, you'd just set it for LiFePO4 mode... If you have to choose a cell voltage and NOCO won't tell you, I'd say 3.65-3.7V per cell (x 4 cells). They will definitely need a higher peak charge voltage than lead acid... And when you use them with a lead-acid tuned alternator/regulator, you're not really getting them fully charged... A LiFePO4 charger will charge them to a higher peak, I'd choose 13.8V probably to be conservative if I had to pick.

I have no idea if they have internal BMS or not... But as you can't access the cells, I'd assume what you've got is what you work with.

 

[tearapin]

It looks like several models of these for MCs are LiFePO4. LiFePO4 charges to a higher peak voltage than lead acid. If you've got an RC lithium charger, you'd just set it for LiFePO4 mode... If you have to choose a cell voltage and NOCO won't tell you, I'd say 3.65-3.7V per cell (x 4 cells). They will definitely need a higher peak charge voltage than lead acid... And when you use them with a lead-acid tuned alternator/regulator, you're not really getting them fully charged... A LiFePO4 charger will charge them to a higher peak, I'd choose 13.8V probably to be conservative if I had to pick.

I have no idea if they have internal BMS or not... But as you can't access the cells, I'd assume what you've got is what you work with.

I know for a fact they have an internal BMS as they advertise that on the site. Since their own charger hooks only to positive and negative terminals I am 99% sure the BMS is doing the balancing.

I only calculated four cells based on the math to get to 13 volts. I suppose there could be 8 in there.

 

[dcg9381]

I only calculated four cells based on the math to get to 13 volts. I suppose there could be 8 in there.

As far as I know the cell structure of these is usually the same at 3.6-3.7V. Maybe 4 x 2 in parallel.. I dunno how they build 'em, I try not to take them apart.

Just charge it for the battery chemistry. This type of conversion is common in RV systems, when we get serious about it we put an in-line converter from "truck" wet-acid voltage to higher LiFe04 voltage, but it's not necessary if you can live with 75% charge from the tow vehicle... If you charge them like lead acid, they're not fully charged... But that's usually OK. Works fine on my 4wheeler!

The RV "charger" (converter) gets set to the right battery chemistry if you have that option.. If you're lazy like me and don't want to replace the converter/charger charge it externally with the correct charger type.

 

[5ubtle]

Lets say you charge it with a LiFe04 charger in the garage. What benefit do you achieve? Five minutes into your motorcycle ride, the voltage is down to the LA voltage. Does storing at 100% charge make the battery last longer?

 

[dcg9381]

Lets say you charge it with a LiFe04 charger in the garage. What benefit do you achieve? Five minutes into your motorcycle ride, the voltage is down to the LA voltage. Does storing at 100% charge make the battery last longer?

There is no benefit in this scenario. The only benefit is that you've got a lighter battery (substantially) and performance output is much higher than lead acid at the same charge state. But you're "partially" charging it with OEM electronics.... The other advantage is perhaps charge cycles over lead acid.

No, charging to 100% won't make it last longer, perhaps the opposite.

 

[cgrutt]

I think you'll be fine what voltage is alternator reading while charging? Anything less than about 14.4 won't bring LIFEPO4 up to full charge though which could throw off balancing over time (the BMS will generally bleed off highest charged cells through resistive load to bring cell down to other cells so it only balances at higher voltages). LIFEPO4 batteries are less resistive than lead acid so has potential to draw more current and could damage your alternator if it exceeds rating. They sell alternator isolators for RVs/Boats/etc as well as DC-DC chargers but probably don't have room or even needed on motorcycle. I wouldn't be that concerned about it personally but if you want to extend life out of battery just charge it fully with your RC charger from time to time. Also I think you don't want to store lithium at full charge if motorcycle will be laid up over winter etc you'll want to bring it down to a storage charge, which is something like 13.2V (? Check that) or 50% capacity. Keeping lithium at full charge for extended periods with shorten life of battery.

 

[bwringer]

Is your NOCO battery in a motorcycle that originally came with a lead-acid battery? If so, the NOCO should do fine with just a lead-acid charger.

Lets say you charge it with a LiFe04 charger in the garage. What benefit do you achieve? Five minutes into your motorcycle ride, the voltage is down to the LA voltage. Does storing at 100% charge make the battery last longer?

Right -- for the third time, the battery is MADE for this exact application, a direct replacement for a lead-acid battery (an AGM in any reasonably recent bike) and the onboard BMS is set up to correctly maintain the battery's state of charge and longevity using normal (lead-acid based) charging system inputs.

...but if you want to extend life out of battery just charge it fully with your RC charger from time to time....

No, don't do this. Again, the battery is made to expect and accept the output of a normal motorcycle charging system. The mojo is in the battery, and adding outside mojo will only lead to cross-mojination. Might not hurt anything, might cause damage or confusion to the BMS. Hard to say.



If you really, really MUST monkey with the battery over the winter or you won't be able to sleep at night, it just so happens that Noco sells smart chargers that work for all battery types, including their alien spaceship dilithium crystal power cells.

NOCO - Genius

Discover the world of charging. Find battery chargers for cars, motorcycles, trucks and more. From trickle chargers to onboard marine battery chargers.

no.co

Hook one of these up for a few hours a month and you're golden. No, you don't need to leave it hooked up 24/7, and if you're riding the bike once every few weeks, you really don't need to bother with an external charger at all.

This ain't 1970, where motorcycles all had two watt headlights, points, crappy charging systems with buzzbox regulators, bullet connectors, and acid-puker wet batteries.

Or maybe it is; you haven't really told us what sort of motorcycle you have. If it's a 1962 Tohatsu Runpet, then yeah, maybe a few hours on a smart charger once in a while wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[cgrutt]

No, don't do this. Again, the battery is made to expect and accept the output of a normal motorcycle charging system. The mojo is in the battery, and adding outside mojo will only lead to cross-mojination. Might not hurt anything, might cause damage or confusion to the BMS. Hard to say.

Don't know about the Mojo or how the BMS will become confused but NOCO recommends charging their powersports batteries fully at 14.6V with their "Smart" chargers. If the motorcycle's alternator isn't putting out 14.6V the internal BMS will be unable to balance individual cells and battery life and performance will be greatly reduced.

 

[SM00TH0PERAT0R]

I’d be willing to bet that when they first released the batteries, they didn’t make “Smart” chargers. Then someone at a board meeting said “hey we’re missing out on an opportunity here!”. And someone else said “let’s call it a ‘ “Smart” ‘ charger to put fear into the **** retentive types!” And someone else said “but we already advertise our flippin sweet internal BMS which invalidates the need for a “‘‘ “Smart™” ‘’“ charger!?” And guy two said “I don’t think that will stop the **** retentives from putting the fear into the rest of the people on garage forums!” And the rest is history.