Non Condensing Boiler Install Comments More Than Welcome

[Miss the Pontiacs]

I am looking at installing a Non-Condensing Boiler for my garage.
I did get one quote back this evening. It was coming in at just under $7K not including the boiler.
I realized this would be considerably more than a blower type, but the pex is in the slab and thought what the hell.
The boiler options so far as listed below:
Non-condensing:

http://www.lochinvar.com/products/Default.aspx?type=ProductLine&lineID=17
https://s3.amazonaws.com/bradfordwh...dronic_brute_mini_bjvs_submittal_1040z_bw.pdf
http://alliedboilers.com/products/mini-gas-boiler/
http://www.slantfin.ca/product-sentry.html

The quote price includes about 40-50' of underground NG piping and permits required.
Any idea which boiler would be best? From my limited calculations I would require 30K+ BTU but 50K would probably be safe. I am also told some boilers have a 10K-100K BTU capability by simply turning a dial. The cost of this feature I am told works out to be about $200. Do any you have experience or knowledge of any of the above boilers?
Another issue is my garage has a torched on roof, so the quote did include a powered exhaust through the rear building wall. I did not want to go through the roof with the chimney, which was my preference.

 

[danski0224]

Better make sure that it's piped right so the return temperature is within specs. Proper piping is far more important than the brand of boiler you are considering.

This is the perfect application for a condensing boiler though.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

A condensing boiler won't work in my case. I have no where to put the condensate and will not be home for stretches at a time to empty a bucket.

 

[Jackfre]

For a non-condensing I would look at Bosch (Buderus) as well as Weil McClain. You will want to maintain a 140* return water temp to the boiler in order to prevent system corrosion.

 

[danski0224]

I'd look into an induced draft boiler. Yes, you will need some stainless steel vent piping, but you eliminate the exterior power vent.

The external power ventilators move a lot of air. You will need to properly install a barometric damper and a combustion air intake with a motorized damper.

Your $7k price quote for everything but the boiler seems awfully light. The last pile of parts that I bought, and this was just piping stuff, was closing in on $5k. Plus installation and the boiler itself. Already had the power venter and barometric. The boiler was replaced and re-piped because the customer didn't heed my warnings to address it a few years ago.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

It looks like I will be having a boiler installed shortly. The supplier has a Utica he wants to provide me. My priorities were that it be a noncondensing, wall hanger and power vented. I want it off the floor, so it appears Utica can do that anyway. It is their only hanging option. Anyone know anything about Utica. I looked at a few online last year and will again but all I can remember about Utica is they are produced in New York. Least I think I remember that.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Here are the 3 options so far. I’m kind of leaning toward the Alli d. Both the Allied and Lochinvar are floor mounts.
https://www.lochinvar.com/products/Default.aspx?type=ProductLine&lineID=17
http://alliedboilers.com/products/mini-gas-boiler/
https://uticaboilers.com/products/boilers-gas/cub-series

 

[yeldogt]

With radiant you need lower temp water. Most high mass CI boilers require a return temp to the boiler of 140 ... so they are producing 160-180 degree water.

You have to have a loop to maintain the temp -- see "pumping away" -- follow it .. no matter what anybody says. The loop keeps the boiler happy -- then you need a second loop going to the radiant -- with some sort of mixing valve to get you the temp the floor needs

The euro boilers -- Buderus CI are able to have much lower water return w/o any danger of thermal shock -- IE cracking. That's why mentioned above. You can set them up for outdoor reset and they can come on an off all day keeping the water at the proper temp for the floor. This can not happen with USA type CI boilers. The outdoor reset function is in the mixing valve.

The fuel saving is in the lower temp water --

What the load -- you need to match the load. You don't want a huge boiler and only need 1/2 of the output.

The Utica may be the best bet since it's a low mass ... you want the boiler that can best match the output and temp you want.

I set my old style Buderus boilers w/ a couple panel radiators -- for the primary loop w/ ODR and use the secondary loop for the floor. best of both worlds

What's the heat loos -- what the rated output of the boilers? first two questions to ask.

 

[fitter30]

Any cast iron has to have a minimum of 140* return water temp. Radiate floor heat runs 5-10* over thermostat setting . System would have to be piped with a primary secondary loop with at least two pumps one for the boiler the other for the radiate loop and a bypass piped in the primary. A conventional water heater only needs the one loop and is non condensing. Small cast iron boilers are all about the same it's more of how the boiler is piped than the boiler itself. Boiler not properly piped can fail in a very short time.

 

[yeldogt]

Any cast iron has to have a minimum of 140* return water temp. Radiate floor heat runs 5-10* over thermostat setting . System would have to be piped with a primary secondary loop with at least two pumps one for the boiler the other for the radiate loop and a bypass piped in the primary. A conventional water heater only needs the one loop and is non condensing. Small cast iron boilers are all about the same it's more of how the boiler is piped than the boiler itself. Boiler not properly piped can fail in a very short time.

The euro boilers can take lower water return -- that's the point of using them.

Much is changing now with low mass and condensing -- Buderus has discontinued many of it's old style gas boilers. They make a replacement that can't do ODR -- directly.

 

[chinboys]

a few more cents on this subject...
you need to have the best and worst case use for the boiler as the demand for hot water to heat. in other words, get a boiler that gets outdoor temperature feedback or modulating feedback with either a setback per curve or set point.
That way would cause the output temperature of the water to change per the outdoor temps. The colder itis outside means the hotter the water is produced for the inside to heat the slab.
Also, think about installing a slab thermostat to control the boiler to see what temp of the slab will give you the desired air temp.

 

[brewchief]

This may be a good application for a taco rmb 1 mixing block, it mixes the temp down for the radiant loops, provides outdoor reset and boiler return protection. Not cheap but when you add up everything needed to do the same thing it's not really that bad.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[danski0224]

Do you know what is in the floor for loop tubing size and length?

Was that sized properly?

Was the insulation put in the right place?

The concrete will **** out the heat faster than the boiler can put it in, unless it is piped properly. This will be a HUGE problem unless you get a condensing boiler... or pipe a cast iron boiler properly...

I would not trust any cast iron or copper fin tube boiler to handle sustained periods of return water temperature less than 140*F- UNLESS that capability is designed into the boiler controls. Some have it. Whether or not it will work in your application is another matter.

I would strongly suggest reading this: https://www.pmmag.com/articles/1010...tecting-boilers-against-flue-gas-condensation

A Caleffi 280 series mixing valve will work just as well as the electronic control solution in the above article. Danfoss has something similar, but the Caleffi already has the unions as part of the package.

If it isn't piped right, it won't work right, and the boiler will die early.

You will also need to address combustion air requirements- especially if a power exhauster will be used. There are powered combustion air intake fan systems.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Do you know what is in the floor for loop tubing size and length?

Was that sized properly?

Was the insulation put in the right place?

The concrete will **** out the heat faster than the boiler can put it in, unless it is piped properly. This will be a HUGE problem unless you get a condensing boiler... or pipe a cast iron boiler properly...

I would not trust any cast iron or copper fin tube boiler to handle sustained periods of return water temperature less than 140*F- UNLESS that capability is designed into the boiler controls. Some have it. Whether or not it will work in your application is another matter.

I would strongly suggest reading this: https://www.pmmag.com/articles/1010...tecting-boilers-against-flue-gas-condensation

A Caleffi 280 series mixing valve will work just as well as the electronic control solution in the above article. Danfoss has something similar, but the Caleffi already has the unions as part of the package.

If it isn't piped right, it won't work right, and the boiler will die early.

You will also need to address combustion air requirements- especially if a power exhauster will be used. There are powered combustion air intake fan systems.

I have 4 runs of 1/2" The tubing was ran by professional heater plumber guys. The building is approx. 680 sq' with 2x6 walls will use R22 or possibly 24 haven't purchased yet.

Around the slab vertically insulated with 18" Polystyrene (2") for below ground use. There is an 18" slab of the same material running below it horizontally. The slab has a blanket type insulation between the gravel and the concrete slab. The pad is 5" with a thickened edge of 12" with a horizontal length of 18".


When on the web I checked the following:https://www.furnacecompare.com/boilers/reviews/
Both the Utica and Lochinvar reviews were pretty brutal. The Allied was non existent.



I haven't talked to the supplier at this time as we probably wants the installer to go over it with me. My installer is out of town for this week and probably will get a chance to discuss it with him on the weekend or early next week. My buddy who is a Sales Manger with the supplier is on holidays till Oct. 9th.



Thanks everyone for their information, but to tell you the truth it is a little overwhelming.

 

[danski0224]

I have 4 runs of 1/2" The tubing was ran by professional heater plumber guys. The building is approx. 680 sq' with 2x6 walls will use R22 or possibly 24 haven't purchased yet.

Around the slab vertically insulated with 18" Polystyrene (2") for below ground use. There is an 18" slab of the same material running below it horizontally. The slab has a blanket type insulation between the gravel and the concrete slab. The pad is 5" with a thickened edge of 12" with a horizontal length of 18".

When on the web I checked the following:https://www.furnacecompare.com/boilers/reviews/
Both the Utica and Lochinvar reviews were pretty brutal. The Allied was non existent.


I haven't talked to the supplier at this time as we probably wants the installer to go over it with me. My installer is out of town for this week and probably will get a chance to discuss it with him on the weekend or early next week. My buddy who is a Sales Manger with the supplier is on holidays till Oct. 9th.

Thanks everyone for their information, but to tell you the truth it is a little overwhelming.

It isn't just the number of loops, it's also the length and how they were run. Being installed by so-called "professional heater plumber guys" is meaningless.

Someone will need to know these details to select the proper circulator.

The blanket insulation is questionable. There are many illustrations of proper slab configuration with insulation for radiant heat available online.

Reviews are next to meaningless. Most will go online to shout a bad review and do nothing when it works. Companies have shill reviewers. Review trimming/purging services are available. The biggest thing that will make or break a boiler is the installation. Just based upon what I have seen in my limited experience, I'd bet that the clear majority of those bad reviews can be traced back to a ****** installation.

Just to be fair, a ****** installation can mean incompetent people installing it as well as the customer being too cheap to do it right (some contractors will not walk from those jobs).

Yes, there are product duds, but for the most part, the stuff being manufactured today should function for a normal expected service life- if it is installed correctly. It is not reasonable to assume that Lochinvar and Utica are manufacturing "junk" on a large scale basis.

Back to the first post- a standard 80% AFUE boiler, the underground gas line, a power exhauster (which will require a barometric damper on the boiler), all of the piping specialties AND installation for $7k is extremely light.

You WILL need combustion air, preferably a fan powered unit interlocked with the boiler controls, unless you get a two pipe standard efficiency (non-condensing) induced draft boiler (they do make these).

I bet I can hit $5k within 15 minutes making a materials list.

There are piping diagrams included with the installation manual (aka: factory supplied kneepads) for every boiler. If you can read the diagrams, you can install it... for the most part. The diagrams will get you 90% of the way there.

And yes, it isn't easy, and yes, there is a lot to it.

The biggest thing that will make or break a boiler is the installation.

 

[johnnyradiant]

'round Vancouver you will find a lot of Super Hots. I've not worked on a Super Hot as small as your requirement but lots in the 80ish to 500ish range, the Saturn Series, and by work I mean usually a clean up or changing an extraneous part - boiler feed, tprv, expansion tank, zone valve, or thermocouple on older models, etc. I was just at their plant a couple weeks ago picking up a new C-Coil for an apartment building.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

JohnnyRadiant, I get the feeling you are recommending the Allied product. I haven’t chatted with my wholesaler yet as he isn’t back to work yet. Maybe you want to come my way and do an install. Lol. I’ll know more in a couple of days.

 

[danski0224]

"johnnyradiant" may be working in facilities that call out a specific piece of equipment in the specifications during construction or remodeling.

Commercial and industrial is another world compared to residential.

 

[johnnyradiant]

I have no affiliation with Allied and the commercial places I do go to I don't believe were spec'd for only Allied products. In the smaller commercial places I see an assortment of boilers, but being in Vancouver where Allied is I see their product the most, the same is true from my own experience in residential here. Being local to Allied plays a roll. It is rare that I need a boiler specific part. Usually it is just the 3rd party pieces that get strapped onto the boilers that need attention. Usually if it is a boiler specific part it is already so old it is better to replace rather than repair. I guess I'm saying from seeing their product the most and not really having boiler issues to deal with I'm fine going into a place to replace the boiler feed or an expansion tank or whatever. With their local abundance and not seeing alot go wrong with the actual boiler I don't mind giving them a nod.

 

[koditten]

I've had Lochinavar non condensing boilers in 2 different places supplying heat to my floor systems. Both were installed by me and the systems are running just fine.

Yes, if you can follow the direction, install some close spaced Tee's in the boiler piping along with a mixing valve, you will have no trouble using a non condensing boiler.


I actually looked long and hard to source a boiler with a standing pilot. There is very little that can't be replaced quickly and cheaply.

I'm very happy with the my fuel consumption for my 800 square foot shop.

I'm not sure about the $7k price tag. That seems about right if you are having a plumber install it. I'm nowhere near that doing it myself.

I did the math for my shop. the extra cost of a condensing boiler wasn't worth it to me. My calculations said it would take 35 years to off set the price of the gas I was saving going condensing.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Thanks koditten.
Don’t thinks a self install is possible here. Haven’t talked with my buddy lately at the wholesaler. I’ve been kind of busy doing my insulation and vapour barrier. A noncondensing boiler has to be my choice as nowhere to get rid of condensate. The Lochinavar will likely be the boiler. The installer is very familiar with the product and that is a plus for me.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

I finally had my boiler installed. I went with a condensing IBC 15-30k modulating boiler. I will include a few pics. If you want I I’ll include additional pics in my garage build thread your more than welcome to check those out as well.
View media item 104643View media item 104646View media item 104645

 

[purediesel]

So I'm somewhat new to the boiler aspect of the heated floor setup's, but why iron piping? Every setup I've seen runs copper. I thought it was for corrosion issues so I thought I'd ask.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

PD you got me wondering as well. I checked it out on the net and this is what I found:

Here's why
First: When you heat up copper pipe, it expands a great deal. When its heated to the extremes found in steam piping (upwards of 240 degrees in some cases), it will expand right apart at the soldered joints. Threaded steel pipe will not.
Second: Longevity. I've seen what happens to the inside of thick steel pipe from the effects of dirt and oil. It usually takes about 20 years or longer for the steel to get eaten through. I would guess it would take about 5 years or less to eat through thin walled copper.
Finally: Not just threaded pipe. Insist that they all use CAST iron fittings, not MALLEABLE iron. They cost more, but when its time to repair and or replace the pipe and or fittings, cast iron can be broken apart, and mallaeble iron must be cut out.

 

[fitter30]

Copper is a perfect for hot water heat look at your domestic hot water and radiate heat floor system usually run water temps 5*-10* over thermostat set point. Your boiler system is piped with malleable pipe fittings not cast fittings. Installation looks good would like to see where the expansion tank is piped to. With all the steel.piping a boiler water treatment would be a good idea.
https://www.vikinggroupinc.com/products/steel-pipe-fittings/cast-iron-threaded-fittings


https://www.ebarnett.com/Sku/441316...MI2YC_0e3t6QIVTdbACh1RqQ0sEAQYFiABEgKWyfD_BwE

 

[danski0224]

PD you got me wondering as well. I checked it out on the net and this is what I found:

It's cheaper That's why.

You don't have a steam system.

A sealed system (boiler, sprinkler pipes) won't rust as long as there isn't a water leak and there is a constant supply of fresh water being added.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

All good to know. Like I mentioned earlier more pics on my garage thread. The installer was a brother to a friend of mine. To tell you the truth I just trusted the installer. No idea on malleable fittings, black or copper pipe etc. I’m just glad it is finally installed. I had some pretty high quotes and found some of the boiler systems were entrance level units. Found some info thru a young fellow, I worked with his Dad. who was not interested in quoting, due to personal reasons.

 

[PoorUB]

A condensing boiler won't work in my case. I have no where to put the condensate and will not be home for stretches at a time to empty a bucket.

And you went with a condensing boiler! Where are you dumping the condensate?

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

@PoorUB This is an ancient thread, but a good question. I managed to really make the envelope of the building very air tight, so run time is minima, When it’s 30-40 below I have to dump the 5 gallon pail maybe once a week. If we are gone for an extended time my neighbour has a key and the fridge is stocked. I spend a lot of time in the garage in the winter so only once did I have a small spill to clean up.

 

[PoorUB]

@PoorUB This is an ancient thread, but a good question. I managed to really make the envelope of the building very air tight, so run time is minima, When it’s 30-40 below I have to dump the 5 gallon pail maybe once a week. If we are gone for an extended time my neighbour has a key and the fridge is stocked. I spend a lot of time in the garage in the winter so only once did I have a small spill to clean up.

Thanks for the response. I didn't realize someone has resurrected and old thread!

I sure wish Ryan would lock threads over a certain age.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Thanks for the response. I didn't realize someone has resurrected and old thread!

I sure wish Ryan would lock threads over a certain age.

Your question was valid. Takes me back to when guy was younger and a project came to fruition.