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Noob 20 amp vs. 15 amp question

62thunderbird

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Apr 3, 2007
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31
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
So I have all 15 amp outlets in the garage. Some are GFCI protected, some not. Anyhow, I was thinking of getting a basic 110v Flux Core wire welder to do small touchups on the go kart I'm building. But the welder requires 20 amps.

Other than the breaker and outlet, what makes a circuit a 15 or 20 amp? Is the wire gauge heavier?
 
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macdabs

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Sep 22, 2007
Messages
195
You might luck out and they may have used 12 guage wire with 15 amp outlets. Turn the breaker off and remove an outlet and verify what guage wire is going to it. If you have 12 guage you just need to upgrade the outlet and breaker. I know when I wired my garage I used 12 guage on everything even though I installed 15 amp circuits in some places.

Mac
 

Rick in Pittsburgh

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Dec 7, 2011
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You might luck out and they may have used 12 guage wire with 15 amp outlets. Turn the breaker off and remove an outlet and verify what guage wire is going to it. If you have 12 guage you just need to upgrade the outlet and breaker. I know when I wired my garage I used 12 guage on everything even though I installed 15 amp circuits in some places.

Mac

Before you upgrade the breaker to 20 amp, just make sure you check all the wire connected to that circuit. If you have ANY wiring (including any going to lights) that is 14 gauge you have to stay with a 15 amp breaker. Better safe than sorry.....

Good Luck
 
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Highbeam

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Feb 15, 2011
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Mt Rainier foothills, WA
I feel pretty certain that it is against the code to switch wire size after you leave the panel. Open the panel and check wire size there, heck, look at the outlet too. If both are 12 gauge then I would feel pretty good about bumping up to a 20 amp breaker.

Also, you may find that the welder doesn't care if it is on a 15 amp circuit. Worst case it is trips the 15 amp breaker. I have found that welders request huge circuits but only require small amps.
 

junk4dummies

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Feb 15, 2012
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224
Location
Redlands California
You can not down size any wire on a circut. That will become the weak link.
The use of electicity creats heat. The samller the wire the hotter it will become with the more amps you draw
.
As a contractor for the past 40 years I have never run anything other than #12wire for all home outlets. Comercial coded is another standard.

If you are going to run a light welder and have other things on the line you will blow the breaker.

If you get a welder, put in another breaker and run 10 guage wire to a dedicated outlet for the welder. You might need to get half breakers for your box if you don't have enough room.

A larger line never hurt. You get a volt drop the longer the run. You can find the chart for amps and run all over the web. It is easy to find. I would go one size larger with a welder. The danger is in the line catching fire.

Old ceiling can recessed lights have all been changed. Years ago they were not made well. The were rated for smaller bulbs. People replaced the bulbs with higher wattage ones and the can's cought on fire. Many a home has burned because of bad fixtues and loose wires. Everyone should check thier lights and outlets to make sure there are no loose wires. All ground wires are to have a crimped tube. You can not use wire nuts on appliance grounds.
Years ago they used aluminum wire in some parts of the country and in moble homes. They aluminum expands and contracts which lossens the screw. That also has caused may fires.

I would not get a 120 v welder. I would go with a 220v. You can always do more with it if you deside to do more welding.n
they cost more but well worth the price. Buy a used one. They are easy to find.

220 volt is just 2-110 lines. Your box has 2 post each are 110 v The 220 volt takes a lead off of each 110 line. It is a no brainer.

If you want 220 volt do not take a line lead form 2 different circuts. It must be a dedicated braker. If one line gets hot it will not trip both breakers and it will burn your shop down.

You can use a 220 breaker for 110 but they are double breakers with a connecting bar between the two breakers. If you want to use it for 110 make sure you cut the bar in the middle. It must be a seperate breaker. If you over heat one breaker the other one will keep it form tripipng thus causing a fire if the are left connected. That will not meet code. Seperated it will.
 

wellpoison

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Oct 14, 2011
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617
Location
Windber PA
20 amp breaker, 12-2 with ground NMB, and 20 amp recep.

like highbeam said, you may want to try it with out upgrading on a 15A gfci circuit. depending on what else you have running on this circuit, and the welder it may/may not work. worst case it trip the breaker.
 

MoonRise

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Nov 5, 2010
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NJ
Ken,

What 'makes' a circuit be rated for 15 amp or 20 amp use is a combination of :

- the circuit breaker (easy to check), which is there primarily to protect the wiring (in the walls and such) from overheating and starting a fire (the wire heats up as more current flows through it, because no wire is a 100% 'perfect' conductor and even the relatively small electrical resistance of the wiring causes heating in the wire);

- the wire size (diameter or "gauge", such as 14 gauge or 12 gauge). May be a little harder to tell as you have to look a little 'deeper'. See above about wire resistance and heating and the circuit breaker being there to primarily protect the wire from overheating:

- the 'devices' in the circuit, such as the switches and outlets themselves.

Note that just saying 'Well, if the wire is 12 gauge then it is just fine for a 20 amp circuit" is only partly correct. Long cable/wire lengths need bigger gauge wires than shorter lengths (because the resistance of the wire depends on the diameter/gauge AND the length AND the material of the wire).

So the long answer to your question of your proposed welder on the 120 V circuit and the wiring and circuit breaker is "It depends."

And btw, unless you somehow have some 'weird' arrangement with the outlets and circuits and such, ALL the 120V outlets in a US garage are -supposed- to be GFCI-protected (either by GFCI breaker or GFCI outlet directly or by being daisy-chained off of an 'upstream' GFCI protective device). With some (limited) exceptions, depending on wiring 'era' and the applicable electrical Code in force at the time (such as a "dedicated" refrigerator outlet or maybe a "dedicated" overhead GDO outlet maybe being in the exempted category from the 'usual' "Garage outlets must be GFCI protected" category). YMMV.

As to the 120V welder, such machines can be useful and certainly handy when used within their limits.

As to the circuit breaker requirements for the machine, if the manual says 'use on a 20 amp circuit', unless you are always running the machine with low power output, you may or may not be able to run the machine in a limited fashion on a 15 amp 120V circuit.

Worst-case scenario there, you get 'poor' welds and/or the breaker trips (no welds).

Also be aware that if you try to run a machine (welder in this case) that need a 'lot' of power on a branch circuit and there are other devices plugged into that circuit and using power, you can 'overload' the circuit (breaker trips). If you have a machine that needs all or almost all of the circuit's capacity (breaker ampacity), make -sure- nothing else is using power from that circuit (any other machines, lights, etc, etc).

Poor welds could result if you get a low-voltage condition at the machine (slightly low incoming voltage from the PoCo, possibly in combination with long or longer wiring lengths leading to more voltage drop over the wiring length) which means the machine doesn't have enough incoming power to work correctly.

Some welders (machines) can 'compensate' to varying degrees with lower-voltage conditions at the machine and some can't.

But at some point, the machine needs *** volts and YYY amps of incoming power to be able to work 'properly'.

And a 'small' 120V FCAW machine may or may not be a 'good' choice to weld on a go-cart. That depends a lot on the machine AND the welding wire filler AND and the operator. If the machine and filler (size and 'type') do not enable you to get the 'correct' heat (power) into the actual weld for the size/thickness of the metal being welded, you can get "inadequate penetration" (aka "cold lap" aka "inadequate fusion") of the weld where it doesn't actually melt properly into the base metal and is just 'glopped' on top of it (but may look 'ok' at a glance, especially by an inexperienced welder). So a big YMMV there as well.
 

sberry

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Brethren, Michigan
Ideal is to learn to run a simple circuit, when a guy gets a new tool or 2 he can provide adequate power, 120V is normally a poor power supply to weld from, these machines need all the help they can get and its not unusual to trip 15A breakers.
 
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