Norseman Vortex Point

[2ndGearRubber]

https://www.harryepstein.com/norseman-vortex-point-drill-bit-set-moly-mechanics-length-3-flats.html


Just as I was thinking I should buy a fresh index of bits for HJE day...
Perhaps this was the source of the Matco hyper-step all along? $195 for a set up to 1/2, by 64ths.

 

[plinker]

Interesting, I dont think the hyper steps were/are US made though. They do work pretty good in general.

 

[Regnar]

All I can think of is the poor ******* that has to sharpen these after using it on anything a little hard.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Interesting, I dont think the hyper steps were/are US made though. They do work pretty good in general.

That was my thought as well. Whoever came up with that tip geometry had to have patented it. Perhaps Matco gets exclusive rights to distribute via the patent holder, and got someone in taiwan to make them? Or the patent ran out, but they last 20 years.... it's a mystery for sure.

 

[Stedlin]

I used to grind drill points just like that back in the early 1970s for production of chromatographic valves and fittings. Never occurred to me to patent the idea.

 

[Benito]

All i know is our hyper-step set has a patent number and "additional patent pending" on it and these seem to have nadda. Good luck to them if that's the case

 

[dnschmidt]

Actually ASTRO makes them for Matco under and exclusive arrangement. We know Astro for Astro tools but just as much of their company is private label as it is Astro. They have a lot of goodies that are proprietary to their main OEM customers that they are not allowed to sell as ASTRO.

 

[Cryptic1911]

ooh I kinda like those

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Actually ASTRO makes them for Matco under and exclusive arrangement. We know Astro for Astro tools but just as much of their company is private label as it is Astro. They have a lot of goodies that are proprietary to their main OEM customers that they are not allowed to sell as ASTRO.

I knew this was the speculation, and believed it myself. Was this ever an official statement from either brand?

 

[uart]

Apart from being nearly 2.5 times the price and impossible to re-sharpen, what advantages do these vortex points have over their regular hi moly bits?

Wouldn't you be better off with an index of the normal bits plus a few step drills for the few situations where they're needed.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

No need to pilot drill, smaller amount of material removal per cutting "level" on the bit. If you've ever seen the Matco hyper step bits, they just plunge through material.

I'm just as likely to pick up a fresh index of 3 flat moly.bits like I normally buy.

 

[uart]

No need to pilot drill, smaller amount of material removal per cutting "level" on the bit.

Ok thanks, that makes sense. So a bit like bullet points (in that they're self piloting but hard to sharpen), but these vortex ones cut even more aggressively.

Yeah I've been out of the loop for a while and hadn't seen the Matco hypers.

 

[PelicanPines]

Those drill bits are for those that want to be lazy... and who don't pay for their own supplies.

 

[4xdog]

Interesting, I dont think the hyper steps were/are US made though...

HJE do get an item's COO wrong once in a while.

 

[IndyGarage]

The only advantage I can see would be for low power drill motors to get started in a hole.

On a drill bit, the depth of cut is basically the length of the "tooth". The power needed is that depth of cut x2 because it's drilling both halves at once. If you step the teeth, then it reduces the depth of cut and thus power needed - but only until you reach the next step - then the power need increases and when you reach the last step it's the same as a non-step bit.

I don't see any reason to use anything like that personally.

 

[Stedlin]

I believe the biggest advance when used for drilling standard holes is much better heat dissipation.

 

[Benito]

All these hypotheticals and assumptions from people just looking at a picture and supposing but haven't used these or the Hyper-Steps. You'll know it when you use it, that's all I have to say.
I haven't opened the index for my regular cobalt drill bits in almost a year.
It's not pixie dust.
But yeah, if i didn't have a guy who came around I could swap new ones out for free , that would be a bummer. Not that they go bad faster or anything, it would just ****.

 

[bwringer]

Neat!

HJE doesn't seem to have these in individuals or smaller sets, but I found individuals at Albany County Fasteners:

https://www.albanycountyfasteners.c...ic-Drill-Bits-Fractional-Sizes-p/1052-348.htm


I saw whatshisname on the SMA Youtube channel drill out a lug nut and stud with one of these (the Matco version, I think) the other day, and it was pretty impressive how it stayed centered and chewed metal. I don't need another damn drill index, but I might pick up a few of these for those nasty crusty sorts of jobs.

 

[Stedlin]

I used to make drills that looked almost identical to those a long time ago.
I asked my Cleveland Twist Drill rep to give me a quote.
They no quoted them. I used to grind the points on a Hybco tool and cutter grinder.
The effective included angle was 40 degrees.
They worked well on Hastelloy C, and other high temperature alloys.

 

[plinker]

Apart from being nearly 2.5 times the price and impossible to re-sharpen, what advantages do these vortex points have over their regular hi moly bits?

Wouldn't you be better off with an index of the normal bits plus a few step drills for the few situations where they're needed.

Normal step drills arent always long enough to do what these bits do. They are pretty durable as well. The 1/8 works really good for drilling out cotter pins I find.

One story, I had to drill out a bolt for a control arm one time that the customer had attempted to drill out (and also broke a drill bit off in, which wasnt mentioned, though obvious by the pieces I removed), The hole was off center and the boss had gotten a set of hyper steps a couple weeks previously. I was able to center the new hole in the bolt with the hyper step bit which is something I could not have done with a normal split point 118*/135* bit. After that I could use a normal bit.

I had it drilled and threads cleaned in decent time for what I had to do and the customer had the nerve to complain about the cost/time/ete... Kinda hit a nerve with me at the time.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Neat!

HJE doesn't seem to have these in individuals or smaller sets, but I found individuals at Albany County Fasteners:

https://www.albanycountyfasteners.c...ic-Drill-Bits-Fractional-Sizes-p/1052-348.htm


I saw whatshisname on the SMA Youtube channel drill out a lug nut and stud with one of these (the Matco version, I think) the other day, and it was pretty impressive how it stayed centered and chewed metal. I don't need another damn drill index, but I might pick up a few of these for those nasty crusty sorts of jobs.

Thank you for linking that. I should grab some singles to play with. I can see them working very well to clean caliper slide pin bores. Normally you dont want to use a drill, due to the aggressive self-feed which happens from cutting with just the edge of the bit. Looks like these may solve that issue.

Normal step drills arent always long enough to do what these bits do. They are pretty durable as well. The 1/8 works really good for drilling out cotter pins I find.

One story, I had to drill out a bolt for a control arm one time that the customer had attempted to drill out (and also broke a drill bit off in, which wasnt mentioned, though obvious by the pieces I removed), The hole was off center and the boss had gotten a set of hyper steps a couple weeks previously. I was able to center the new hole in the bolt with the hyper step bit which is something I could not have done with a normal split point 118*/135* bit. After that I could use a normal bit.

I had it drilled and threads cleaned in decent time for what I had to do and the customer had the nerve to complain about the cost/time/ete... Kinda hit a nerve with me at the time.

Thanks for the real world hyper-step info. I don't have a matco driver myself, and real world feedback like yours can be tough to get.


As for the last paragraph... ain't that always how it goes? Either you're taking too long because you lack skill, or if you're making time you're a scammer. Nobody will pay if it takes longer, but they're always asking about discounts if it takes less. Same 'ol song and dance.

 

[uart]

The only advantage I can see would be for low power drill motors to get started in a hole.

Yeah that also makes sense. So it seems that these would be particularly useful in a hand drill (not that they're under powered these days, but there's only so much force you can apply and keep in control).

I'm thinking for example of drilling 1/2 inch holes in 1/4" plate by hand. The drill would be through the other side before the hole was much larger than 1/4", and after that it's basically just reaming. I can see how that would cut efficiently with a lot less pressure than a regular bit.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Yeah that also makes sense. So it seems that these would be particularly useful in a hand drill (not that they're under powered these days, but there's only so much force you can apply and keep in control).

I'm thinking for example of drilling 1/2 inch holes in 1/4" plate by hand. The drill would be through the other side before the hole was much larger than 1/4", and after that it's basically just reaming. I can see how that would cut efficiently with a lot less pressure than a regular bit.

I think a lot of guys forget we all don't have the luxury of securing work in a drill press. I'm often crammed in a tiny space using wrist power only to provide down force.

Yeah, on a proper drill press with good power a decent HSS drill bit can cut a lot. You ain't getting the same results drilling with outreached arms, or with your head at a 90 degree angle and one foot off the ground.

 

[Zewnten]

These worked great drilling out grade 8 bolts on body pans who's heads had sheared off from rust.

 

[D-train]

This is an old thread, but I had to put my opinion/result somewhere...

I bought a set on HJE day. I am NOT a machinist so rip on me if you will. My latest project was a heavy duty engine run stand. (Packard straight eights need a little heftier stand) So I used these to drill thru a bunch of 1/8th inch and 1/4 inch steel. Even used the 1/2 bit on a press for about 20 holes. These bits are great. ...very little chattering. And when you stop to oil up they just settle in again and keep drilling. These things were throwing 2'-5' ribbons.

Probably the most pleasant surprise was when I pulled one out to ream a hole with the hand drill on the 1/8 in frame of the lawn tractor. I couldn't get a straight shot at the hole, so I was fully expecting a busted bit or a sore wrist. I GOT NEITHER. It went thru it like NOTHING.

These are my go-to bits now.

Mark

P.S. feel free to commence with the attacks.

 

[Ohio Andy]

This is an old thread, but I had to put my opinion/result somewhere...

I bought a set on HJE day. I am NOT a machinist so rip on me if you will. My latest project was a heavy duty engine run stand. (Packard straight eights need a little heftier stand) So I used these to drill thru a bunch of 1/8th inch and 1/4 inch steel. Even used the 1/2 bit on a press for about 20 holes. These bits are great. ...very little chattering. And when you stop to oil up they just settle in again and keep drilling. These things were throwing 2'-5' ribbons.

Probably the most pleasant surprise was when I pulled one out to ream a hole with the hand drill on the 1/8 in frame of the lawn tractor. I couldn't get a straight shot at the hole, so I was fully expecting a busted bit or a sore wrist. I GOT NEITHER. It went thru it like NOTHING.

These are my go-to bits now.

Mark

P.S. feel free to commence with the attacks.

I have a set on order as well as a few singles.