Norseman vs. KnKut "Hyper Step" Drill Bits

[The Critic]

Product Page | JDTCo.

www.jerseydiscounttoolco.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08X95SCT7/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Both appear to be a knock-off of the Matco Hyper-Step Drill Bits but at a lower cost. The Norseman's are significantly cheaper than the KnKut - is there any reason to pay more for the latter?

 

[AA/FC]

Product Page | JDTCo.

www.jerseydiscounttoolco.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08X95SCT7/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Both appear to be a knock-off of the Matco Hyper-Step Drill Bits but at a lower cost. The Norseman's are significantly cheaper than the KnKut - is there any reason to pay more for the latter?

Matco doesn't make ANYTHING other than tool boxes. ALL Matco hand tools are made by other manufacturers. Norseman is a well respected drill bit manufacturer located in St. Paul Minnesota and makes high quality USA drill bits. My guess is NORSEMAN is the actual manufacturer of this style of drill bit and everyone else (Matco, KnKut, etc, etc.) buys them from Norseman and then puts their own name on them. It's possible that Knkut makes their own bits of this design, but it's most likely they are rebranded Norseman bits.

 

[antman213]

I have some Zenith brand with a similar tip. Fairly cheap aswell

Zenith Industries ZN101158 Z-Tip Impact Bit, 3/8" - - Amazon.com

Zenith Industries ZN101158 Z-Tip Impact Bit, 3/8" - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[tyyost]

Looks like the Norseman bits are USA made as well. I imagine the initial sales agreement expired or others have reverse engineered the process to make these as most seem to swear by them for mechanic work. Matco still is very proud of theirs, coming in at $370.00. When they came out I seem to remember larger sizes being warrantied but I didn’t see that on the website.

I may buy a smaller set to try out from Norseman from HJE.

 

[RoninB4]

I don't understand the purpose of these but that's just me. Amazon advertises these as being able to go through "hard steel". I can just about guarantee that these will not go through hardened steel (above Rc 58) but most home shops won't encounter this very often. Most home shops likely will encounter stainless steel and dull the cutting edge. These types of drills will be much more difficult to sharpen than a regular twist drill, making these a disposable drill. Not knocking anybody that buys/uses these just not my personal choice.

 

[dnschmidt]

Well, the wait is over. I just got an official announcement from ASTRO (I'm an ASTRO distributor) that they can finally sell their Turbostep drills under their own name and that soon the buying public will be able to buy the real deal from the inventors of this type of drill bit from ASTRO. Lawsuits for breach of patents are in the works against Norseman and now I suppose KnKut. ASTRO will be selling these in two different sets. One goes from 1/16" to 3/8" and the second from 1/16" to 1/2". I think the first set makes the most sense to me (it's about half the price of the second) as once you're got a 3/8" hole you can use any normal drill to enlarge such a hole if needed. The part number are TS21 for the first and TS29 for the second. List prices for each are $196.63 and $333.05 but street prices will be much lower.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I don't understand the purpose of these but that's just me. Amazon advertises these as being able to go through "hard steel". I can just about guarantee that these will not go through hardened steel (above Rc 58) but most home shops won't encounter this very often. Most home shops likely will encounter stainless steel and dull the cutting edge. These types of drills will be much more difficult to sharpen than a regular twist drill, making these a disposable drill. Not knocking anybody that buys/uses these just not my personal choice.

When you're hand drilling a 150k mile work hardened stainless steel manifold stud somebody snapped off, with the drill over your head jammed into a 10" square hole - they're a godsend.

 

[AJHD]

Well, the wait is over. I just got an official announcement from ASTRO (I'm an ASTRO distributor) that they can finally sell their Turbostep drills under their own name and that soon the buying public will be able to buy the real deal from the inventors of this type of drill bit from ASTRO. Lawsuits for breach of patents are in the works against Norseman and now I suppose KnKut. ASTRO will be selling these in two different sets. One goes from 1/16" to 3/8" and the second from 1/16" to 1/2". I think the first set makes the most sense to me (it's about half the price of the second) as once you're got a 3/8" hole you can use any normal drill to enlarge such a hole if needed. The part number are TS21 for the first and TS29 for the second. List prices for each are $196.63 and $333.05 but street prices will be much lower.

Your post confuses me...

Astro's version of these bits are already available for sale on Summit, Amazon, etc.

They are also listed on Astro's website under new products.

This style of bits have been sold by Matco and others for years.

So if Astro is the original "inventor", why are they just now manufacturing and selling them under Astro?

Your post implies they were manufacturing and selling them under a different brand name.

I didn't research patents, but Astro would have to prove they had a valid patent on this design before anyone else and be able to prove another company stole their design without permission.

Hard to believe all of this is just now taking place. Maybe I'm wrong or missing something.

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

I have the Matco set it’s amazing. One big difference I’m seeing between them and the ones mentioned here is the Matco says made in China. These say made in USA which leads me to believe someone else is making them for Matco. Either way the Matco ones are excellent. Never used the other brands personally but heard amazing things about both.

 

[Lowlevel2021]

I own the KnKut set, have only needed to use about 3 sizes and have been great.

 

[dnschmidt]

ASTRO makes a lot of tools that are private labeled to other companies MATCO being one of them. In this case these bits were under exclusive contract to Matco. That agreement expired and now ASTRO is free to sell them without constraint. The patent numbers for these bits which are owned my ASTRO are below. I copied these numbers directly from ASTRO's new product introduction sheet.

U.S. Patent Nos. 11,007,583 and 11,007,584

​

 

[RoninB4]

When you're hand drilling a 150k mile work hardened stainless steel manifold stud somebody snapped off, with the drill over your head jammed into a 10" square hole - they're a godsend.

I'll take your word for it. I've drilled out corroded exhaust studs lying on my back while getting hot chips in the face and still don't see any advantage to this type of step drill over a conventional twist drill. If they worked for you then that's a win for you. I have a strong dislike for using stainless steel fasteners in torqued applications.

 

[darkzero]

I don't understand the purpose of these but that's just me. Amazon advertises these as being able to go through "hard steel". I can just about guarantee that these will not go through hardened steel (above Rc 58) but most home shops won't encounter this very often. Most home shops likely will encounter stainless steel and dull the cutting edge. These types of drills will be much more difficult to sharpen than a regular twist drill, making these a disposable drill. Not knocking anybody that buys/uses these just not my personal choice.

Yup I don't understand how are you supposed to sharpen them. For the average user you can't. They caught my attention when the Matco ones came out. Was gonna wait till someone else started selling them for more reasonable prices, that is until I thought about how to sharpen them, then I quickly lost interest.

Not being able to sharpen a drill bit is a deal breaker for me if I'm buying a whole set of them. I sharpen most all my drill bits when they start getting dull. Having to replace these step point ones instead of sharpening is such a waste. Sure I do use step drills/uni-bits but mine don't get used often so they last long. I just use cheaper ones so they're cheap to replace & easy to get anywhere.

But I use my drill bits mostly for machining related, I suppose these step point ones have their place, I just don't understand for what.

 

[kudakev615]

When they came out I seem to remember larger sizes being warrantied but I didn’t see that on the website.

I own this set of matco hyper stepped bits and according to my rep all the bits are warrantied except the smallest ones in the front row. I recently picked up the Norseman stepped bit set and the tips on the matco's are more aggressive and bite into the metal better IMO

 

[AA/FC]

Delete

 

[Odd-job]

Looking forward to buying these Astro bits after buying a set of Norseman I am sold.

@dnschmidt where should we buy from to indirectly support a fellow GJ member?

 

[NFH2740]

Yup I don't understand how are you supposed to sharpen them. For the average user you can't. They caught my attention when the Matco ones came out. Was gonna wait till someone else started selling them for more reasonable prices, that is until I thought about how to sharpen them, then I quickly lost interest.

Not being able to sharpen a drill bit is a deal breaker for me if I'm buying a whole set of them. I sharpen most all my drill bits when they start getting dull. Having to replace these step point ones instead of sharpening is such a waste. Sure I do use step drills/uni-bits but mine don't get used often so they last long. I just use cheaper ones so they're cheap to replace & easy to get anywhere.

But I use my drill bits mostly for machining related, I suppose these step point ones have their place, I just don't understand for what.

Twist drills are a consumable.

The layman that isn't using them for production may be taken aback by this statement, but with proper use (feed, speed, lubrication) the life of the drill isn't a concern.

 

[darkzero]

Twist drills are a consumable.

The layman that isn't using them for production may be taken aback by this statement, but with proper use (feed, speed, lubrication) the life of the drill isn't a concern.

That's the thing, seems like most aren't using them in a production environment.

Since it seems like Matco was one of the 1st to introduce these, I assume they were marketed towards automotive use? If yes they'll see much more abuse & shorter life than in a production environment. If not, no matter, I'm wondering how economical & how easy is it to obtain invidual replacements for those who don't go through their Matco dealers?

Yes drills are consumables, maybe I'm just cheap, but if I'm paying that much for a set I'd like to get more life out of them than simply replacing one when dull. They are just not for me I suppose & that's fine.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That's the thing, seems like most aren't using them in a production environment.

Since it seems like Matco was one of the 1st to introduce these, I assume they were marketed towards automotive use? If yes they'll see much more abuse & shorter life than in a production environment. If not, no matter, I'm wondering how economical & how easy is it to obtain invidual replacements for those who don't go through their Matco dealers?

Yes drills are consumables, maybe I'm just cheap, but if I'm paying that much for a set I'd like to get more life out of them than simply replacing one when dull. They are just not for me I suppose & that's fine.

They're marketed by dealers for drilling out FUBUR bolts and hogging out holes, with a hand drill. Crooked angles, garbage feed/speeds, etc.

I have norseman vortex points. If I need a single bit replacment, you're talking 2.50-7 each for the smaller stuff. Even if they're single use and trash, which they aren't, I would find that acceptable for getting me out of those situations. I can hand drill with space to work and create beautiful curly shavings, bits last a long time. But drilling work hardened stainless stud out of a manifold, over your head, I just need to get this done. That, and for larger sizes where you can't get sufficient down force they help you bite through the material.

I would say there is no better way to open up a hole to a given size. Step bits are nice until you need a specific size opened up in something thick.

 

[darkzero]

Yup, they're definitely not for me. Maybe if I still worked at a shop I'd try em out. I don't do much hand held drilling these days and I have a set dedicated only for that.

 

[dnschmidt]

Looking forward to buying these Astro bits after buying a set of Norseman I am sold.

@dnschmidt where should we buy from to indirectly support a fellow GJ member?

Anybody you like and get the best price from. All distributors pay the same price from ASTRO it's up to them to determine their profit margins. I don't sell mail order anymore whether it be TOPTUL or ASTRO only to locals that I know.

 

[tarbellb]

Step bits CAN be sharpened, I've had it done several times.

Initially I thought this was a gimmick, but thinking about the action I bet they work great. Step bits make very round holes, and the final size almost acts like a reamer?

Mark me down as Interested

 

[RoninB4]

Step bits CAN be sharpened, I've had it done several times.

They can be ground by re-gashing the flute but that takes the edge further off the center line and therefore changes the cutting geometry in a negative way. I can't see most people having a proper T&C grinder to reduce the diameter and providing the needed radial clearance. Not disputing your assertion, just about any cutter can be re-sharpened, but not as easily as a twist drill. It's good that some folks find these useful in what they do, I still don't see the purpose of them. It's good that we're all different.

 

[tarbellb]

They can be ground by re-gashing the flute but that takes the edge further off the center line and therefore changes the cutting geometry in a negative way. I can't see most people having a proper T&C grinder to reduce the diameter and providing the needed radial clearance. Not disputing your assertion, just about any cutter can be re-sharpened, but not as easily as a twist drill. It's good that some folks find these useful in what they do, I still don't see the purpose of them. It's good that we're all different.

You make some good points, I typically look at step bits as a quick and low tolerance hole maker. In that regard, a quick flute sharpening without any other adjustments is fine for my usage. Do they lose some accuracy and performance, sure, but its not very noticeable in my applications.

I see these as a get out of a jam solution, but certainly would not be my everyday bits or only bits

 

[Jdubzz]

Anybody have any updated feedback on whether they would recommend the Norseman Vortex or the KnKut equivalent step point mechanics length drill bit sets? Thanks in advance.

 

[danielbuck]

I'm curious how well these work too! Seems like they would be really good for sheet metal, for when you need a whole inbetween the size that most regular multi-step drills do.

 

[scooby074]

Howd that big lawsuit go? Looks like Knkut and Norseman are still selling theirs.

 

[F-22]

Ruko from Germany also sells something similar (for a much more affordable cost here in Europe), they call it the "ultimatecut" line.
.

 

[Monte]

Also sold as "DKM", "Tornado", "Projahn", "Garant" and others..

 

[GeoBruin]

Don't forget Astro! According to the tales, it was their IP!

 

[AA/FC]

Don't forget Astro! According to the tales, it was their IP!

I can't remember who said (typed) it, and I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but I also seem to remember reading somewhere on this site that once litigation was over and patents were enforced all of these "copy cat" bits would no longer be sold..... Basically ASTRO would be the only company selling this type of drill bit. Maybe not EXACTLY as I have typed, but fairly close.

I see that hasn't happened yet.

Or, maybe my memory is flawed?

 

[GeoBruin]

I can't remember who said (typed) it, and I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but I also seem to remember reading somewhere on this site that once litigation was over and patents were enforced all of these "copy cat" bits would no longer be sold..... Basically ASTRO would be the only company selling this type of drill bit. Maybe not EXACTLY as I have typed, but fairly close.

I see that hasn't happened yet.

Or, maybe my memory is flawed?

I don't remember the conclusion either, but I definitely remember the discussion. I'm sure it was probably discussed in this thread way back when it was new.

The most interesting thing about that for me is that Astro is having them made in Asia, but manufacturers have begun producing this design in the US as well. That kind of flips the stereotypical design/manufacturing work flow (USA company creates product, Asian manufacturer copies design and produces a cheaper version for import) on its head.

To be clear, I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this and I'm essentially parroting what I have read here on the forum, so please take all of this with a grain of salt.

In any case, I have the set I got from Astro when they first came out and I use them regularly. I find they produce rounder holes and less exit burr on sheet metal, and the step tips sort of act like pilots when enlarging existing holes. Those features alone are enough for me to keep them around.

Chris has said here before that if you call them you can order individuals or a set of the smaller bits but it would be great if they had a set of just 1/16" through 1/4" available as a standalone item on their site. Something like this but without the fancy case.

 

[Swervyjoe]

The Astro set is on sale. See the current Woot thread in hot deals.

 

[F-22]

I don't remember the conclusion either, but I definitely remember the discussion. I'm sure it was probably discussed in this thread way back when it was new.

The most interesting thing about that for me is that Astro is having them made in Asia, but manufacturers have begun producing this design in the US as well. That kind of flips the stereotypical design/manufacturing work flow (USA company creates product, Asian manufacturer copies design and produces a cheaper version for import) on its head.

To be clear, I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this and I'm essentially parroting what I have read here on the forum, so please take all of this with a grain of salt.

In any case, I have the set I got from Astro when they first came out and I use them regularly. I find they produce rounder holes and less exit burr on sheet metal, and the step tips sort of act like pilots when enlarging existing holes. Those features alone are enough for me to keep them around.

Chris has said here before that if you call them you can order individuals or a set of the smaller bits but it would be great if they had a set of just 1/16" through 1/4" available as a standalone item on their site. Something like this but without the fancy case.

Same with the European/German versions Monte noted.
I assume Astro couldn't have patented the tip because a profiled drill bit is actually very commonly used in niche stuff industries? Drill stuff on an automated production line with a single profiled tool instead of multiple tools... Also there's the sheet metal step bits, all kinds of wood drill bits etc.... What Astro tried to patent is kind of unique, but maybe not unique enough to get a patent that can be enforced to that degree?