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Not another "should I install my own subpanel" thread...

exactly

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I have more or less decided to hire an electrician to install a garage subpanel rather than doing it myself. It is about a 16' wire run in a basement ceiling that is being redone anyway, then up into garage wall. Am I making the right choice, or no? How many folks here who are not electricians do or have done this, and what would be your advice?

My only concern is not being able to follow all of the many 'rules' and thus failing an inspection, even though my municipality is friendly to folks such as myself. For example, what if the feeder is too close to this or that or not mounted to the joists just right? I would literally have to ask a bunch of specific questions on here since there are plenty of things in NEC2017 that are vague. And so I feel that I must pay a $500+ surcharge for labor because I question my ability to check all the boxes, so to speak.

Is this reasonable? Or should I give another thought to doing it myself?
 
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Terry D

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When you say failing a inspection, I assume your getting a homeowner permit. If that's the case, and you feel comfortable doing the work, then yes, do the work. There are many knowledgeable people on here, and we can walk you through it. It sounds like it is an attached garage, so there are some things that you don't have to do if it was detached. Main thing is, you have to feel comfortable doing the work and if your area requires permits, make sure you get them so nothing can come back and bite you in the **** later.
 

mrVanagon

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If you decide to tackle the job (which is really not so bad, as home projects go) I'd suggest you get a good book on electrical stuff, read that and keep it on hand for reference. I like Wiring A House by Rex Cauldwell.

I'd also suggest that after you read a book, talk with the inspectors in your area about your questions. Most of the time inspectors are interested in working with home owners (at least in my experience). You can almost certainly do this if you have an interest in learning how. That said, there's no shame in not wanting to take on a project you can farm out.
 

pbon

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It’s not that hard and you can get the answers to questions here. I have done 2 and am not an electrician. Patience, care and educating yourself are the 3 most important skills.
 

b-boy

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Buffalo NY
I did it. It was not that difficult.

I did have some help from my Dad, who's a wiring expert, but that was more for advice than actual hands-on work.

I did a 250+ ft pull from my house the the outbuilding. That was the hardest part.
 

nadogail

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Talk nice to the Inspector by asking him/her "well how can I make this right?"

You will probably find they will not really be a "hard ***" if they feel you are sincerely trying to cooperate.
 

casmurbax

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Not sure if you read this or not, nut here is a good start.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460&showall=1

The garage is connected to the house, correct?

If you provide pictures and an idea on what you are going to run in your garage(load calc), there are plenty of people on here that will provide you with the correct answers and steps you need to take.

You are already into it because you at least know what NEC code you are following.
 
OP
E

exactly

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Minnesota
Not sure if you read this or not, nut here is a good start.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460&showall=1

The garage is connected to the house, correct?

If you provide pictures and an idea on what you are going to run in your garage(load calc), there are plenty of people on here that will provide you with the correct answers and steps you need to take.

You are already into it because you at least know what NEC code you are following.

Yes, the garage is attached. As for photos, I went one step further and assembled a very clear, four-minute overview video. Would you mind taking a look and letting me know what you think?

 

DavidR8

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Victoria, BC
If it were me I'd get the feed into the space and then use EMT conduit to run the circuits inside the garage.
 
OP
E

exactly

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Minnesota
When you say failing a inspection, I assume your getting a homeowner permit. If that's the case, and you feel comfortable doing the work, then yes, do the work. There are many knowledgeable people on here, and we can walk you through it. It sounds like it is an attached garage, so there are some things that you don't have to do if it was detached. Main thing is, you have to feel comfortable doing the work and if your area requires permits, make sure you get them so nothing can come back and bite you in the **** later.

Correct, my municipality is friendly and welcoming to what I want to do. The permit is affordable, as is the inspection (and, if needed, additional inspections).

Attached garage, yes. Could I bother you to watch the concise, four-minute video I assembled?

Thank you so much for the encouragement!
 
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purplezr2

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I wired my whole garage myself and installed my exterior feeder(even though its an attached garage).

I see we are in the same state. I know that MN department of Labor has a tips and tricks PDF for home wiring, I can't find it, but I had a printed copy when I did the work on my house.
 
OP
E

exactly

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I wired my whole garage myself and installed my exterior feeder(even though its an attached garage).

I see we are in the same state. I know that MN department of Labor has a tips and tricks PDF for home wiring, I can't find it, but I had a printed copy when I did the work on my house.

Wow, that's awesome! When did you do this?

Is this the document you're looking for? https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/eli_inspection_checklist2.pdf

Would you be able to offer any input on my four-minute overview video of my project? You can find it here:
. This is just the subpanel aspect, though. But for the branch wiring, am I correct in understanding that the wire is to go up the studs, through the top plate, to the next stud to which a receptacle is to be mounted, back through the plate, and down the stud to the next receptacle rather than being strung from stud to stud at receptacle level? And when the wires pass through the top plate, are there any special requirements?
 

itb45

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running the wire is the hardest part, the rest is pretty easy. Between a book and asking a couple questions here it can be done, unless you are uncomfortable doing it, then with no hesitation hire it out.
 

purplezr2

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Wow, that's awesome! When did you do this?

Is this the document you're looking for? https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/eli_inspection_checklist2.pdf

Would you be able to offer any input on my four-minute overview video of my project? You can find it here:
. This is just the subpanel aspect, though. But for the branch wiring, am I correct in understanding that the wire is to go up the studs, through the top plate, to the next stud to which a receptacle is to be mounted, back through the plate, and down the stud to the next receptacle rather than being strung from stud to stud at receptacle level? And when the wires pass through the top plate, are there any special requirements?


Seems like your video would be a straight forward job, especially if the ceiling is coming down anyway. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the appropriate wiring would be. Do you know how large the subpanel will be as that will dictate you wiring gauge? What is currently powering your garage(appears attached)
 

jask

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you did a very good job with that video, it makes it much easier to understand what you are working with. I think you could do this quite easily yourelf if you are willing - as has been pointed out there are a lot of people here who can help walk you through the actual work and help you ensure a compliant instalation.
so here are a few thoughts; what are your intentions with the sub panel? do you know how many and type of circuits, locations for outlets? switched circuits? lighting locations?.. are you looking at future use? is there any chance that in the future you might want to install a chage point for an electric vehicle in the garage? this is easy to factor into the sizing of conductors and panel now..even if it is not installed for years.
if it is an option surface mounted metallic conduit will be much easier to install than tearing open and repairing finished walls and will probably speed up any permit inspections.
another option for your panel location if you opt for surface mount EMT is to bring your conductor out from under the closet floor joists into the garage in a metallic conduit on the garage side of the closet wall surface..( extending up from joist level to the bottom of the panel) and install the sub panel there as a surface mount panel box.
 
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OP
E

exactly

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Minnesota
Seems like your video would be a straight forward job, especially if the ceiling is coming down anyway. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the appropriate wiring would be. Do you know how large the subpanel will be as that will dictate you wiring gauge? What is currently powering your garage(appears attached)

I agree! This shouldn't be too bad.

I'm back after a few days of busyness, and I am going to write a longer reply to the thread, in which I will answer your questions. Thanks much!
 
OP
E

exactly

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Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
71
Location
Minnesota
you did a very good job with that video, it makes it much easier to understand what you are working with. I think you could do this quite easily yourelf if you are willing - as has been pointed out there are a lot of people here who can help walk you through the actual work and help you ensure a compliant instalation.
so here are a few thoughts; what are your intentions with the sub panel? do you know how many and type of circuits, locations for outlets? switched circuits? lighting locations?.. are you looking at future use? is there any chance that in the future you might want to install a chage point for an electric vehicle in the garage? this is easy to factor into the sizing of conductors and panel now..even if it is not installed for years.
if it is an option surface mounted metallic conduit will be much easier to install than tearing open and repairing finished walls and will probably speed up any permit inspections.
another option for your panel location if you opt for surface mount EMT is to bring your conductor out from under the closet floor joists into the garage in a metallic conduit on the garage side of the closet wall surface..( extending up from joist level to the bottom of the panel) and install the sub panel there as a surface mount panel box.

Thank you very much! I have more videos and 3D models by now. I am sure I will be sharing a few diagrams as I work through this process. For now, though, I wanted to update you and everyone else on the project instead of starting a new thread. Is that a fair way to go about it?

Here we go...going to write a long reply in a new post. I'm not sure if you will be notified or not, so maybe check back in a bit?
 
OP
E

exactly

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Major update 7/16

Thank you all for your helpful replies and encouragement! I wanted to update everyone on where I'm at with this project.

Intentions and use case for adding a subpanel

To answer the intent question brought up in a couple replies, my immediate intention is simply to be able to allow simultaneous operation of two woodworking machines (one is a dust collector) on 120V and/or 240V. Ergo, two 120V branch circuits and two 240V branch circuits, right? But beyond this, if I'm putting the effort into installing a subpanel in the garage, I would like to account for the possibility of an electric heater, ductless mini split with heat pump, and /or electric car charger in the future. What do you think? Is this reasonable? Do I need to account for anything else? Oh, one more thing. I do have a goal of building a sawmill with, say, a 7HP, three-phase motor on it. I do not intend to weld or use a plasma cutter here, but that could change or could happen under a future homeowner.

Note that right now I have only 100A main service installed in a 1980s CH7CC Cutler Hamer Loadcenter. I have no intentions whatsoever of getting an electric car in the next few years. Furthermore, with only 100A service, it is unlikely I will be doing electric heat. As I said, while I want to allow for future possibilities, my immediate use case for the foreseeable future is literally just running a saw and a dust collector at the same time. I currently have a 9A 240V dust collector and a 15A 120V table saw. It is likely I will get a 3HP bandsaw in the future, and I might change the table saw to 240V if not install a 3HP motor.

Before I apply for my permit and proceed with the project, I would like to get your feedback on three alternative options to a garage subpanel:

Garage subpanel alternative #1:

First, after talking with my power company, it appears there is the possibility of relocating the meter and service entrance to exterior wall of the garage...on the other side of the house. I was told this is done by an electrician and/or the homeowner because the pad-mounted transformer is member owned, and it is common for a homeowner to do the trenching. The upside to this is the current main could be fed as a subpanel and, I believe, ultimately phased out, which would be nice because it's in the wall of a finished basement living space.

Here is a two-minute, narrated 3D animation outlining this option:

Is this ridiculous, or is it practical if not a good idea? My main concern is the time and effort it would take to do this. Furthermore, I am not sure if wires can be spliced and rerouted to the garage over time such that the current main can be phased out. While I like the idea of this, I know of only one (possibly) legal way to do it, and I doubt it's designed for splicing literally every circuit in the house. The three 240V circuits could just be rewired entirely since they're so close. If there is no possibility of phasing out the current main without rewiring the entire house (or at least the first leg of each circuit), I don't think this is practical to even consider.

Garage subpanel alternative #2:

Second, I can either have the main panel and service upgraded to 200A, or I could do it myself. If a subpanel is to go in the garage primarily for just operating two 10 - 15 amp motors at this time, I do not believe the main service needs to be addressed at this time.

That being said, if the main were already 200A and had more than two open breaker slots, would you instead simply run four branch circuits from the main to the garage, or would you still install a subpanel? The nearest garage wall is exactly 20' away and up one level.

Garage subpanel alternative #3:

Being that my main panel is a) in basement living space with finished walls and ceiling, and b) it has only two open breaker spaces, should I instead consider putting my subpanel in the basement utility room and running the branch circuits to the garage from there? It is located on the other side of the garage back wall and down one level, and it has 5x5' of room in it, half of which has furnace ducting protruding 1' from the ceiling and a sump basket in the floor (though no pump...yet). The other half has a drywalled wall that would make the required clearances for a panel install, I believe. In other words, would it be better to run branch circuits to the garage and then have this panel accessible for future work on the house, e.g. living room can lights, kitchen remodel, and/or house addition, all of which would occur above the main basement area, which has a drop ceiling? Or should I not worry about it now and just install my subpanel in the garage, later having to run a circuit or two either to the garage subpanel or to the house main (if it is even upgraded and thus has more spaces)?

Here is a two-minute, narrated 3D animation outlining this option:

Attached is a photo of what would become free space if I removed the shelf, screens, and tripod.

General updates, wire selection, panel selection:

In the past two days, I have spoken with both my local electrical inspector and my local building inspector. Both were friendly and helpful. I am also ready to submit my electrical permit application at any time, which will be approved the same day so that I can start work quickly.
  • The electrical inspector did say that yes, he will tell me what he wants to see if I'm off on a couple things, though he did say that I am supposed to know what I need to do. But that's why I'm here, right? He was friendly, though, and even said he would stop by to take a quick look after I've just started to make sure I'm on the right track, which is very kind of him.
  • The building inspector said it's perfectly fine to mount a subpanel in a drywalled garage wall that has the residence on the other side because the panel closes the hole cut in the wall for it. No concerns whatsoever.

What kind of feeder wire should I use for this? Again, it's 20' exactly through the joists (will have to drill holes, as the run is perpendicular), and then <10' vertically in total...so less than 30' for sure. I was originally going to use 6-3 Romex, which can be purchased locally for $1.63 per foot. Alternatively, the second of two nearby suppliers with whom I spoke suggested #2 SER cable @ $1.42 per foot "because it's good for 90 amps versus only 50 or 60." Until hearing this, I had thought 6-3 was completely the right choice. As I am truly trying to consider future use and expansion, e.g. electric heater or mini split AC, electric car charger, or welder or similar, I want to take the time to do this right the first time. Is that fair?

For subpanel size, given what I've outlined above, I am thinking of going with a 16-space Eaton CH unit, $50 for panel + $20 for cover, because my main is also CH. Thoughts?

Are there any specialty or unique tools I will need for this job aside from a heavy duty drill, auger bits, and wire strippers?

Finally, am I correct in understanding that when the main breaker is off, nothing in the panel is hot except for the service entrance conductors themselves and where they connect to the main breaker? The hookup sounds basically the same as a standard breaker, which I have done before, aside from an additional conductor. I'd stick a normal breaker in there without giving it a second thought. Not sure why I've made a big deal about this install ;)
 

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OP
E

exactly

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Bump. Anyone? Or should I start new threads for individual questions?

At this point I am also considering redoing the main as well because it doesn’t sound like it can be relocated without rewiring the entire entire house.
 

Syberia

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Hookup is just like a regular breaker, and if you turn it off, the entire subpanel is dead and safe to work on. I installed one on the outside wall of my (attached, via a breezeway) garage, though I have yet to run any circuits in there, and the outlets are still sharing a single 20-amp circuit with all three of our bedrooms. Definitely not ideal, I'm going to disconnect the garage from the bedroom circuit entirely and re-run everything to the subpanel over the winter, at the same time I'm planning on insulating the space. Right now it gets well over 100 degrees in there, so I'm waiting for obvious reasons.
 
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