Not used to seeing a panel like this

[Oggy]

I'm used to seeing panels with the main breakers at the top, this panel appears to have it in the upper left of the panel.

This is a house that is on the market that we looked at and it's one of two that we like. However like I said, I've never seen the main breaker there (this is also an assumption, as it's a 100 amp breaker). The only other thing I know of for this house it could be load wise is a fully wired shed, however I didn't see a panel in there at all...

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[Cmreschke]

This was (is) common with cutler hammer and some Siemens panels. Was for sure, not so sure about is anymore. All were 100 amp panels. My concern here is 2 different manufacturers breakers in the panel. Don't know if it's a cutler hammer, siemens, or quite possibly challenger. Challenger has the colored breaker handles if I remember correctly. Definitely try to get a break on the selling price and tell them that the breakers are possibly not compatible with the panel.

Who manufactured the panel?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The main breaker is whats called a backfed main. This is evidenced by the retention screw.

Is this panel in the same building as the main service panel?

Looks like some breakers are Eaton/Cutler Hammer BRs. The colored handled breakers are Bryant which was replaced by Eaton/Cutler hammer BR.

As asked above- what is the brand of the panel?

 

[Cmreschke]

Good call on the Bryant breakers. Thought challenger, my memory ***** lol.

 

[Norcal]

The panel is either a Cutler-Hammer or Eaton, depending on the age, BR type load center, there are a lot of Siemens/Murray/ITE breakers in that panel, while IMO a improvement they don't belong in a BR load center, or as I call them "Zinsco II".

Eaton has dropped the Cutler-Hammer brand name in favor of theirs.

Good call on the Bryant breakers. Thought challenger, my memory ***** lol.

Challenger was always had black handles, even after Westinghouse bought Challenger & got Bryant, and Westinghouse, breakers listed and branded as Challenger, instead of continuing the Challenger breakers, other then continuing to use Zinsco main breakers in 150A on up load centers.

 

[Speedy Petey]

..., or as I call them "Zinsco II".

What's wrong with BR?
I see no higher failure rate than any other modern panel.

 

[sberry]

I seen some BR, never saw a problem with it. The old boxes were cheap cans, not sure if it hurt anything.
Has anyone ever actually seen a problem using the wrong breaker?

 

[Ericpwp]

My old house has a squareD 100 amp with the main breaker on the top right of the bus.

 

[Oggy]

The main breaker is whats called a backfed main. This is evidenced by the retention screw.

Is this panel in the same building as the main service panel?

Looks like some breakers are Eaton/Cutler Hammer BRs. The colored handled breakers are Bryant which was replaced by Eaton/Cutler hammer BR.

As asked above- what is the brand of the panel?

This was the only panel I could find.. It was in the same corner that the service came into the house, and there weren't any panels upstairs. I don't believe there is another panel in the house.

Can you explain what a "backfed main" is?

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has mentioned that the second breaker from the bottom on the right looks like it was tripped... I don't know if it was or not, as nothing was marked and I didn't want to flip someone else's breakers.

I didn't notice there were different types of breakers in the box, but looking at this, and thinking about other issues with the house, we're likely going to pass. There were a lot of other things that made this decision though.

One home we're really interested in I'll be posting quite a bit here about if we get it... We're taking another look with a friend of ours who's an engineer...

 

[csp]

Backfed main means that the breaker is being fed power at the terminals where power is usually going out to an individual circuit.

 

[Oggy]

Ok, so after researching, and thinking about this...

Backfed Main: the main power coming into the panel would come into this breaker, and down the bus bars, and the screw retains it to the panel. Same thing as feeding your house electricity with a generator through your dryer outlet (Yes I know it's not safe, and no, I wouldn't do it, just using as an example), except this would be a proper way to do this.

 

[Oggy]

Thank You CSP, I was typing as you replied...

Makes sense.

 

[Cmreschke]

Fyi the back fed main is just as safe as your standard main. It's not something that the owner did on his own. The panel came that way from the manufacturer.

 

[sberry]

I was curious, has anyone ever seen a burned buss with the breaker brand mix?

 

[reader2580]

If breakers are properly listed can't they be used in other panels?

I forgot that my garage panel was GE and not Siemens like the house so I've been using a Siemens breaker for a year. I do plan to put a Siemens panel in garage before winter as the GE panel has issues.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This was the only panel I could find.. It was in the same corner that the service came into the house, and there weren't any panels upstairs. I don't believe there is another panel in the house.

Can you explain what a "backfed main" is?

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has mentioned that the second breaker from the bottom on the right looks like it was tripped... I don't know if it was or not, as nothing was marked and I didn't want to flip someone else's breakers.

I didn't notice there were different types of breakers in the box, but looking at this, and thinking about other issues with the house, we're likely going to pass. There were a lot of other things that made this decision though.

One home we're really interested in I'll be posting quite a bit here about if we get it... We're taking another look with a friend of ours who's an engineer...

Is there just a meter outside or a meter AND a disconnect?

And what looks like a tripped breaker may in fact just be a spare unused breaker so without seeing the panel with the cover off, theres no point in calling out a potentially tripped breaker.

I was curious, has anyone ever seen a burned buss with the breaker brand mix?

Yes I have.

If breakers are properly listed can't they be used in other panels?

I forgot that my garage panel was GE and not Siemens like the house so I've been using a Siemens breaker for a year. I do plan to put a Siemens panel in garage before winter as the GE panel has issues.

Breakers that can be used in dislike panels are whats called CLASSIFIED for those panels. Eaton BRs are the only breakers that are classified for use in other makes of panels.

 

[Oggy]

Fyi the back fed main is just as safe as your standard main. It's not something that the owner did on his own. The panel came that way from the manufacturer.

I wouldn't figure it would make that much of a difference, or you guys would have said something, and the research I did once I was tipped off to what it was would have indicated such.

Is there just a meter outside or a meter AND a disconnect?

And what looks like a tripped breaker may in fact just be a spare unused breaker so without seeing the panel with the cover off, theres no point in calling out a potentially tripped breaker.

[/b]

Yes I have.



Breakers that can be used in dislike panels are whats called CLASSIFIED for those panels. Eaton BRs are the only breakers that are classified for use in other makes of panels.

I never would think to leave an un-used breaker in the box, it would drive me crazy trying to figure out what it was for...

I didn't see anything next to the meter that would allow you to shut off the power. The meter itself was small compared to every other meter I've seen on homes I've lived in, and there was a wooden box surrounding it the whole box I would say was probabably not much bigger than a dvd case.

Like I said though, at this point, I'm really just educating myself. After a lengthy discussion with my wife this home would fit our current needs, but we'll have outgrown it in 5 years as our children get older.

I definitely appreciate the information though. Knowing the things to look for is important, and initially the variety of colors was what I saw in the box, not the difference in breaker brands. We're looking at a different home, the one we really like, again on Wednesday, and I know a few things I'll be looking for because of the discussion here...

Another question though, the garage has a 100amp main breaker, assuming there isn't an additional meter for the garage, I would estimate that the garage is 80-100' (Estimate includes vertical & horizontal travel) from the main breaker, and the wiring travels underground, what size wiring should I be looking for? I'm pretty certain the work was done by a licensed electrical contractor, as there's stickers for the company on both panels, however, I'm not one to assume... If the wiring were not large enough could I simply decrease the size of the breakers (main at the house as well as at the garage)?

Thanks for the help!

 

[csp]

If you pull an unused breaker then you have direct exposure to the bus bar anytime the door is opened, since the tabs for the breaker space have been removed. It's safer just to leave it in place.

 

[sberry]

Yes I have.

So,,, 1 guy with an awfully short answer?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you pull an unused breaker then you have direct exposure to the bus bar anytime the door is opened, since the tabs for the breaker space have been removed. It's safer just to leave it in place.

Or just put in filler plates.

So,,, 1 guy with an awfully short answer?

What was wrong with my answer? U asked a short question.

 

[Cmreschke]

So,,, 1 guy with an awfully short answer?

Is it worth 5he risk?

 

[sberry]

Is it worth 5he risk?

So no more evidence then? I could assume from that answer also no personal experience with it either?

 

[sberry]

What was wrong with my answer? U asked a short question.

I was just curious due to the constant concern over this,,, millions of these in service, probably as many as Federal panels. I never seen it, never heard of a case of it happening, never heard of it causing a fire.
I also have seen hundreds of things go wrong with electric equipment, not this one. Millions of loose screws are in service daily, most people don't even uncover panels for decades.
I bet this as a problem is so low there isn't even any statistical evidence.

 

[sberry]

Its not allowed cause it aint listed. Its about like using a 3 wire dryer cable to a main as a welder circuit.
I was just curious though since here are about 20 warnings with each thread to see if it matched the hype. If we asked about blown up plastic air lines would have got responses, I have seen it too. A couple times. I have seen burned buss to breaker connections with the listed stuff.
I bet back in my drinking days must have replaced half a dozen of those **** AC disconnects on bars that dam near burned the joint down but they are now advocated in places don't even need them.
For every air compressor problem we hear about a simple ball valve would have insured the secondary and most other problems are now caused from people adding additional equipment it doesn't need, then on occasion adding another circuit to protect against that.
If they would have left it alone the first problem wouldn't have occurred. All this is why many oem systems last so longt,,, then at the first problem some genius decides it could have never been right and is going to fix it and the thing never works correctly again.
In many cases this type of engineering leaves an ambush, I know some its only a matter of time unless someone other than the owner can grasp a bright idea of how things should be as opened the short circuit interruption, sent it and everything to this panel to a ground rod.
I took something apart a while back, already had it back together when I figured out the previous guy also put it together wrong. My genius figured it didn't matter and obviously worked a good long while and it was dumb but it wasn't like it was when it left the factory and had developed a problem?

 

[catsass]

I was just curious due to the constant concern over this,,, millions of these in service, probably as many as Federal panels. I never seen it, never heard of a case of it happening, never heard of it causing a fire.
I also have seen hundreds of things go wrong with electric equipment, not this one. Millions of loose screws are in service daily, most people don't even uncover panels for decades.
I bet this as a problem is so low there isn't even any statistical evidence.

I'm a bit late to the thread but here's my experience. The theory isn't the problem of using other breakers that fit correctly. More often, the issue is an electrician or contractor acting as one; uses an old breaker during an install. Case in point: I had a new HVAC installed at my house. Couple weeks later I smelled smoke from my basement breaker box area. I inspected couldn't locate the smell. It was very intermittent. Couple days go by the old lady notices the ac running intermittently. Pull the newly installed breaker and find the buss bar charred and the outer breaker points welded off! Of course I f'd with the breaker until I had it figured out.

I live out a ways, the box was getting real tight, HVAC guy cutting me a deal and trying to save himself ten bucks and a half hour drive to Lowe's. He had one in his parts and threw it in there. Probably at the end of a long day with the warden hovering. I know. He didn't have time to F with and see that the tabs were bent pretty good and the springs were ****!

The breaker barely retained in the box and was the cause of the arcing. So this was my experience, observations and opinions. Don't take it too seriously. I'm not an electrician. Remember theory NOT the issue. How monkey hammer banana? As a practice, I buy the brand that matches the box and I watch my monkeys close after that experience.

So,,, 1 guy with an awfully short answer?