Novice needs info

[Mike2874]

I have a 3-way wall switch inside my front door that maybe you wouldn't even call a 3-way. One switch controls a porch light, one switch controls a light inside the door, and the third switch controls a pair of lights on the front of my garage. This third switch is actually duplicated by another switch in my garage.

Anyway I'm needing an ac outlet to power a video/intercom doorbell (has ac adapter for power), can this 3 switch setup be changed so I can get an ac outlet out of it? I don't even need the switch controlling the garage lights if that would make a difference.

 

[dave*99]

There is a good chance you have power in that switchbox that you can tap off of.
One possibility is to put an old work box beneath the switchbox and install a cable between the two. That way your light switches remain intact.

The porch light switch and light inside the door switch are likely fed from the same wire.
If so, this would be the place to tap.

That being said, tell us more about the product you are installing. Maybe there are other options. Perhaps a low voltage wire to the intercom running from the basement etc.

 

[VHF]

"3-way" typically refers to a 3-terminal switch that allows controlling a light from 2 locations such as your outside garage lights. Sounds like you have one 3-way and two regular switches all installed in a triple-wide junction box by your front door.

As long as there is a neutral (white wire) in the box, you should be able to add an outlet. There are a few options:

1. Replace one of the switches with a standard duplex receptacle. Replace one of the other switches with a duplex switch (typically two sidewise toggle switches.)

2. Replace one of the switches with a switch-receptacle combination. This gives you one "sideways" switch with a single receptacle below it (which might be all you need for your video intercom.) This could be any of the 3 switches, including the 3-way switch to the garage, although in that case you would need a 3-way switch-receptacle combination and the wiring is a little trickier.

3. Replace the 3-way switch to the garage with a duplex receptacle if you are really willing to give up controlling the outside garage lights from this location. You will need to wire-nut the common and one of the travelers from the 3-way switch together and cap off the other traveler with a wire-nut. Pull power for the receptacle from the unswitched hot lead feeing one of the other switches (i.e. not from anything that was previously connected to the 3-way!)

4. Leave the 3 switches in the box and install a new outlet lower down on the wall. If there is drywall on the inside then it is easy to cut in an opening for a new outlet and fish through some 14-2 or 12-2 NM-B ("Romex") to provide power.

If you haven't done any home wiring projects before, do some more reading (maybe a basic home wiring book) or get an experienced buddy to help you. Never try to connect two wires under a single screw, and avoid the using the friction hold back-stab connections on the back of some outlets--they can loosen up over time. The back-wire connections where the screw clamps down on the wire are OK, and frequently allow two wire under one terminal which could be helpful for feeing your new outlet.

You'll want to identify the breaker (or breakers) that control all 3 lights and make sure they are all off when working in that box. If it is a 20A breaker then you must use #12 wire. If it is a 15A breaker then you can use #14 wire if that is what was used before.

 

[dave*99]

While it is certainly possible to put a receptacle in the existing switchbox using the methods above, give some thought to the aesthetics of such an arrangement. Especially if the item plugging into the receptacle is a wall wart type power supply.

 

[Mike2874]

Yeah guess I didn't think about putting a box underneath the switches. Might not look that great having an outlet mounted that high with an ac adapter plugged in but it's a straight shot through the wall from doorbell. The ac wart plug wire probably isn't long enough for mounting toward the bottom of wall.

It's a GBF a video doorbell http://gbfbiz.com/index.html that can either be powered by the provided ac adapter or get it's power from the existing doorbell button. The doorbell wires have to provide 12 volts and mine doesn't. I tried hooking it up to the wires and while it did light it up it still wouldn't work. Plugging it back in to the ac adapter it works fine.

So I would need a bigger transformer (somewhere in my attic) or install an outlet and the latter seemed like it might be cheaper/easier.

I probably won't attemp this on my own I'll probably end up hiring someone but I wanted to know my options beforehand.

 

[dave*99]

When you tried to use the existing doorbell wire perhaps the problem was not the size of the transformer. It could be the doorbell (the old one already in the house.)
Powering your new device from the existing wires places the old doorbell in series with the new device.
Some old doorbells may offer too much resistance to power your new device.

What kind of "old doorbell" do you have? Does the owners manual of the new device address this?

 

[nadogail]

If there is a Neutral in the switch box, yes you can.

If there isn't a neutral in the box, I don't think you can do this.

Good luck on finding a cluster of white wires, wire nutted together.

 

[Mike2874]

We've had the doorbell for probably 40 years it was put in when we built our house. I don't remember ever replacing it so if it's not that old it's still pretty old. I believe it's a Nutone but it doesn't say much on it.

Actually the manual deals with the operation not installation. I've talked to their tech support several times and he kept stressing some older doorbells/transformers didn't provide 12 volts and their doorbell needed at least that to operate.

 

[DC73]

Yeah guess I didn't think about putting a box underneath the switches. Might not look that great having an outlet mounted that high with an ac adapter plugged in but it's a straight shot through the wall from doorbell. The ac wart plug wire probably isn't long enough for mounting toward the bottom of wall.

One possible option that I've seen done but not sure if it meets current code is to cut in a 2 gang old work box, hard-wire the transformer inside the box and then put a cover plate over the box. That would certainly look better. They make dividers for 2 gang boxes that creates a physical barrier between the high voltage (120) side of the transformer and the low voltage side.

DC

 

[Mike2874]

One possible option that I've seen done but not sure if it meets current code is to cut in a 2 gang old work box, hard-wire the transformer inside the box and then put a cover plate over the box. That would certainly look better. They make dividers for 2 gang boxes that creates a physical barrier between the high voltage (120) side of the transformer and the low voltage side.

DC

If it's possible to put a new 12 volt transformer inside the wall like you mentioned I definitely would be ok with that.

 

[dave*99]

We've had the doorbell for probably 40 years it was put in when we built our house. I don't remember ever replacing it so if it's not that old it's still pretty old. I believe it's a Nutone but it doesn't say much on it.

Actually the manual deals with the operation not installation. I've talked to their tech support several times and he kept stressing some older doorbells/transformers didn't provide 12 volts and their doorbell needed at least that to operate.

Do you have a voltmeter? Connect the new unit and measure the voltage going to it.

Or go to the old doorbell and measure the voltage there (while someone pushes the button.)

BTW, your old Nutone unit is still functioning properly??

 

[VHF]

Many hardwired doorbells use 24VAC, with the button, the transformer, and indoor chime all wired in series. The transformer is frequently located in the basement or attic. I suspect this video doorbell unit wants 12VDC. (Web site says 12V @ 1.5A, but doesn't specify AC or DC.)

Are you keeping your existing doorbell functional or abandoning it? i.e. Is this unit supposed to ring your existing doorbell as well as notify your smartphone?

If you are abandoning the existing doorbell, the existing wiring could be used to feed 12VDC outside by replacing the existing doorbell transformer (probably 24VAC) with the power supply for the video doorbell. The existing chime would also need to be disconnected, as would any button for the back door.

If you are keeping the existing doorbell, then you will need to run the 12VDC to the unit, either by adding a receptacle inside the front door as you originally asked about or by fishing a low voltage wire to another location where it is convenient to plug in the 12VDC power supply.

 

[Mike2874]

Do you have a voltmeter? Connect the new unit and measure the voltage going to it.

Or go to the old doorbell and measure the voltage there (while someone pushes the button.)

BTW, your old Nutone unit is still functioning properly??

No I don't have have one. Yeah it works fine!

 

[dave*99]

The more I think about this I come to the following conclusion.
Running more wires and installing receptacles is more work and thought then replacing your old transformer and/or old doorbell.

Even if it means a trip to the attic.

 

[Mike2874]

Many hardwired doorbells use 24VAC, with the button, the transformer, and indoor chime all wired in series. The transformer is frequently located in the basement or attic. I suspect this video doorbell unit wants 12VDC. (Web site says 12V @ 1.5A, but doesn't specify AC or DC.)

Are you keeping your existing doorbell functional or abandoning it? i.e. Is this unit supposed to ring your existing doorbell as well as notify your smartphone?

If you are abandoning the existing doorbell, the existing wiring could be used to feed 12VDC outside by replacing the existing doorbell transformer (probably 24VAC) with the power supply for the video doorbell. The existing chime would also need to be disconnected, as would any button for the back door.

If you are keeping the existing doorbell, then you will need to run the 12VDC to the unit, either by adding a receptacle inside the front door as you originally asked about or by fishing a low voltage wire to another location where it is convenient to plug in the 12VDC power supply.

Well my original plan was to keep my existing doorbell until I found out this GBF doorbell works a little different. I thought by connecting the existing doorbell wires it would not only power the device but would also trigger my existing doorbell chimes. I know some work this way but this doorbell doesn't it requires a separate signal wire ran from the existing doorbell to it.

This doorbell has the option of alerting by smartphone and existing doorbell chimes if wired for it. To get around having to run wire from my old doorbell chimes I ordered a wireless chime from them that plugs into their doorbell.

So to answer no I won't be using my existing doorbell but will use the new wireless chimes.

I just looked at my old doorbell again and it just doesn't say anything on it but Nutone Scovill.

 

[VHF]

However, if he wants to keep the existing doorbell circuit intact so it still goes ding-dong, it sounds like the new unit will need its own separate 12VDC power supply. In which case the options are adding a new receptacle inside the front door OR running a low voltage wire to a location where the power supply can be located.

I'm curious whether the existing Nutone uses an electromagnet or an electronic chime. Either one could typically supply enough power to support a lighted doorbell button, but probably doesn't provide enough power to run a WiFi-enabled video intercom.

 

[Mike2874]

Correct as I mentioned earlier my old doorbell does have enough power to light up my new doorbell but not enough to power it.

Guess I'm a little confused whether it would be simpler to install a new transfer dedicated to the new doorbell and using the existing doorbell wires. Or have an outlet put in and power the new doorbell via the ac adapter.

I really have no idea where the old transformer is so I would hate having someone spending a lot of time trying to trace it down. Probably somewhere in my attic though.

 

[VHF]

In that case (not keeping the existing doorbell) you have the ability to use the existing wiring to power your new unit. However, this will require figuring out the existing circuit enough to isolate the pair of wires going to the front door.

Two things you need to figure out:

1. Where the transformer is located. Mine is on my unfinished basement ceiling attached to the side of a junction box.
2. Whether the wires from the front door are "home run" to the transformer or to the chime.

Could be a little tricky without a multimeter. You will need the wires to the front door to be completely isolated from the existing 24VAC transformer and also disconnected from the chime. But if can isolate the pair of wires that feed to the button at the front door, you can use it to supply the 12VDC power to the unit.

Also, be careful while working around that 24VAC transformer if the power is on. If you are completely abandoning the existing doorbell you should probably have the transformer disconnected from 120V as it will no longer bee needed. Plus it will eliminate a couple watts of phantom load.

 

[Mike2874]

Guess I can just leave it up to the electrician I get hopefully he will be knowledgable enough to choose the right course of action. I can't imagine finding where my transformer is located will be easy especially if in my attic.

I would also like for him to run me a new porch light off of the 3 switch setup I have if possible.

 

[VHF]

Could very well be in the attic... sometimes just attached to a rafter!

Another thing to think about... do you have back door button for that doorbell that you would want to keep functional?

Given the unknown transformer location it might be better to go down the route you were originally contemplating and adding an outlet inside your front door. Do consider adding a new receptacle lower on the wall instead of replacing your switches, preferably at standard outlet height (extend the low voltage wires to power the doorbell if needed.)

Replacing a switch is feasible if you don't mind having a sideways switch or two and seeing your plug-in power supply right there with your frequently used switches.

 

[Mike2874]

Could very well be in the attic... sometimes just attached to a rafter!

Another thing to think about... do you have back door button for that doorbell that you would want to keep functional?

Given the unknown transformer location it might be better to go down the route you were originally contemplating and adding an outlet inside your front door. Do consider adding a new receptacle lower on the wall instead of replacing your switches, preferably at standard outlet height (extend the low voltage wires to power the doorbell if needed.)

Replacing a switch is feasible if you don't mind having a sideways switch or two and seeing your plug-in power supply right there with your frequently used switches.

No I don't have a back door button.

While I agree any outlet should preferably be mounted at a standard outlet height the ac adapter has a special plug on one end that plugs into a port on the new doorbell. If I remember right the wire is pretty thin so would it be advisable to try to splice a longer wire to it or will it hurt? Guess I'm not even sure how hard it would be to splice.

 

[VHF]

I wouldn't be afraid to splice in additional wire if that makes the installation neater and easier. Low voltage wire is best spiced by soldering and covering the joint with heat-shrink. A crimp-on **** splice connector is also acceptable. However, don't just twist and tape if you want long-term reliability!

Have you figured out how you are going to fish the wire from inside to outside? If you use the power supply as-is with no splicing you will need a hole big enough to fish the connector through to the outside; if you cut and splice you only need a hole big enough for the wire (1/4" or even smaller.) In either case be careful not to hit any electrical wires in the wall when drilling!

A higher-than-normal receptacle is perfectly acceptable as long as you and your significant other approve of how it looks.

 

[dave*99]

I'll give you another option. If your transformer is providing at least 12V and your Nutone doorbell is the problem and you are willing to eliminate the Nutone doorbell,

Then:

Disconnect the Nutone doorbell. Short the 2 wires that were feeding it together. They are usually red and white small gauge wires. Install your new unit at the front door. This will provide a direct connection between the new unit and the transformer.

 

[Mike2874]

Ok I did some measuring of where I want to mount the new doorbell. It's about 5" higher on the outside wall than the switches on the inside wall. Also my ac adapter is about 54" long and will have plenty of length if used with an outlet mounted at a standard height... so no splicing.

@ VHF
Now that was going to be my next question. Do you think it will be that hard for an electrician to fish my ac adapter cord up the wall to the new doorbell? And what if the adapter quits it's got to be easy enough for me to replace myself if needed.

If I end up going the route of possibly replacing the transformer/doorbell or with a new transformer mounted in a box connected to the existing wiring, should any off the shelf transformer work?

@dave
I do need to keep a doorbell in the setup if it was up to me I would be fine with being alerted by the smart devices only... but not my wife.

 

[VHF]

It sounds like your new doorbell needs 12V at 1.5A, although I never found a spec that said AC or DC. It might say on the transformer itself. Most electronics these days use DC (and actually use a switching power supply rather than an actual transformer--less phantom load and less heat.) However, your doorbell might be designed for AC as it sounds like in some circumstances it could run off an existing doorbell transformer, which are AC. The best thing is probably to use the provided power supply, although it is easy to find generic 12V power supplies these days--just need to make sure it matches AC or DC and can deliver at least 1.5A.

It should be easy for an electrician to fish the power supply wire through from outside to inside--they have the experience, fish tape, and special drill bits to facilitate the job. As long as the low voltage wire is loose in the wall you could use it to pull through a new wire if you ever need to replace the transformer. Or just cut and splice in a new 12V power supply on the inside.

If you have a new outlet installed lower on the wall under your light switches to plug in the power supply, the logical thing would be for the low voltage wire to sneak up under the cover plate and into the wall next to the new junction box (but not into the junction box--not permissible to mix low voltage and 120VAC in the same box) and up inside the wall and out on the outside at doorbell height.

Make sure the holes on the outside get caulked so as not to let in any cold air into the wall cavity.

 

[Mike2874]

Thanks for all the advice I'll probably call someone within the next couple of weeks. I did have to call an electrician for my mother yesterday and mentioned my situation. He said what you guys said...it all depends on what wiring I have at my switch location.