O-Ring Material for Diesel Fuel

[John in OH]

I have to replace a pair of O-rings on a low pressure diesel fuel oil/water filter on a John Deere tractor.

What O-ring material is best suited for use with diesel fuel??

 

[csp]

Viton

 

[laser3kw]

viton for the win

 

[rayra]

came to say viton. The green stuff.

 

[rlitman]

came to say viton. The green stuff.

Viton is usually brown or purple. Green is usually HNBR, which is not for fuel.

 

[garfunkle24]

Why are you guys recommending Viton? Buna-N is fine unless it's a high heat application. A fuel filter isn't.

The best material is the one that does the required task at the lowest cost.

 

[jkeyser14]

Why are you guys recommending Viton? Buna-N is fine unless it's a high heat application. A fuel filter isn't.

The best material is the one that does the required task at the lowest cost.

The cost difference is pennies. Viton will resist most chemicals. I would also use viton.

 

[egdede]

Why are you guys recommending Viton? Buna-N is fine unless it's a high heat application. A fuel filter isn't.

The best material is the one that does the required task at the lowest cost.

The cost difference is pennies. Viton will resist most chemicals. I would also use viton.

Yes, a better algorithm might take into account the amount of an increased cost against the gained benefit.

 

[garfunkle24]

Yes, a better algorithm might take into account the amount of an increased cost against the gained benefit. accountants shouldn't make policy decisions.

What exactly is that benefit? Higher temperature tolerance in an application that doesn't need it? Chemical tolerance when it won't see any?

I'm sure that's really worth the trade-off of worse abrasion and tear resistance, higher cost and the inability to seal at lower temps. Might not matter to the OP but matters up here and in northern states.

But paying more for a less suitable part seems like a great idea. You internet engineers sure know a lot more than John Deere engineers.

Thinking there is one all-around "best" material is simplistic at best, however smug you are about accountants and algorithms.

Or are we just having a party where people feel the need to advertise the fact they're aware Viton exists, even if it means giving bad advice?

 

[nadogail]

When I worked for a hydraulic shop, I was led to believe that Viton was the premium O ring material.

Maybe it was better for more things? I don't know, I left that shop many years ago.

 

[garfunkle24]

Maybe it was better for more things? I don't know, I left that shop many years ago.

Viton likely is more "universal", especially in places you don't need to worry about low temps, so may be a safer choice for unknown applications and/or places that just want to stock one type.

When a specific application is known, however, there are often better options.

I would say a titanium alloy is a more "premium" alloy than steel, but I don't want my lathe tooling or wrenches made from it.

 

[csp]

Calling advocating viton "bad advice"?

Is it the best bang for your buck? Maybe not. Is a few pennies really going to make it become a bad choice?

Are you hosting the let's split hairs party?

I keep Viton on hand for multiple uses, not just one.

 

[garfunkle24]

Calling advocating viton "bad advice"?

Is it the best bang for your buck? Maybe not. Is a few pennies really going to make it become a bad choice?

Are you hosting the let's split hairs party?

I keep Viton on hand for multiple uses, not just one.

Advocating a less suitable, more expensive product based on the simplistic notion that there is a universally superior material IS bad advice.

Regardless of bang for the buck or how few pennies, an inferior material for the application remains just that. That's why it is a bad choice.

Which part did you not understand? The part where I explained how it was an inferior product for that application, or the part where I clearly stated that Viton may be a more universal "on-hand" item?

It's sad that people are more concerned with their ego and confirming their own opinions than they are with reading comprehension or actually learning.

Why don't you leave the advocating to marketing wankers and educate yourself?

 

[csp]

It's interesting that your initial post says Buna-N "is fine", which sounds like yeah, it works. It sure doesn't exude anything about being best for the application.

Next comment was using the one that does the required job at the best cost. Again, nothing there that says Buna-N is the best for the application.

It's too bad you're more interested in picking other people apart rather than promoting why you think Buna-N is the correct material. If you think someone isn't aware then educate them. You don't need to be a ****.

 

[garfunkle24]

I came on and stated facts to give the OP the best info I could, then butthurt people emotionally attached to their opinion jumped on me.

Not knowing something? OK, I guess.

Not knowing something and speaking authoritatively on it? Less OK.

Not knowing something yet having the hubris to tell someone else that they're wrong...that's real special.

I try and educate people but if they're more worried about being right than learning I'm not going to hold their hand. If that constitutes being a ****, so be it.

Who gave the most info in this thread?

 

[egdede]

I was kinda Rude, and am sorry for that. I guess I was thinking about big expensive things that are disabled due to a less expensive component being used. That can sure be frustrating. Honestly, I don't know **** about hydraulics except they are always causing problems on big machinery at the worst time for me : ) I wonder if it was ever o-ring related? How about when people die?

Here's what saving pennies did for Ford:

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/13/us/ford-paying-millions-in-suits.html


I just typed in 'saving pennies lawsuit' into google. Don't think you can just argue: A component that fails isn't 'doing the job'. The components were doing the job for the majority of consumers. And lawyers and accountants sometimesliterally decide that damages in lawsuits are cheaper than increased costs. And sometimes those lawsuits are about dead people. I say 'spend the pennies'; right?

Too find the sweet spot where you can not kill people because it's cheaper to pay off their estate than building a car correct in the first place requires a more complex decision tool than "cheapest possible'. That is all I meant

 

[garfunkle24]

I was kinda Rude, and am sorry for that.

I really respect that and genuinely apologise for my tone and words. I am good with information and data and bad with people.

I shouldn't have been so dismissive and prickly, especially as I actually share some of your concerns on penny pinching vs the human cost. That's one good thing about you guys having tort cases. I know opinions on tort reform etc vary but I do think it's a good thing from that aspect.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I'd use Buna-N.

 

[Bretny]

Copper will outlast any rubber. Are these on banjo fittings?

 

[bob15]

What exactly is that benefit? Higher temperature tolerance in an application that doesn't need it? Chemical tolerance when it won't see any?

I'm sure that's really worth the trade-off of worse abrasion and tear resistance, higher cost and the inability to seal at lower temps. Might not matter to the OP but matters up here and in northern states.

But paying more for a less suitable part seems like a great idea. You internet engineers sure know a lot more than John Deere engineers.

Thinking there is one all-around "best" material is simplistic at best, however smug you are about accountants and algorithms.

Or are we just having a party where people feel the need to advertise the fact they're aware Viton exists, even if it means giving bad advice?

I used to test and build prototype and SOP filter assemblies & pumps for Deere (among dozens of other engine manufacturers). When possible, we used Viton because in testing, it is a better O-ring.

 

[gorilla]

For what it's worth the Parker O ring handbook says that Buna-n is the proper O ring for diesel oil.

 

[garfunkle24]

I used to test and build prototype and SOP filter assemblies & pumps for Deere (among dozens of other engine manufacturers). When possible, we used Viton because in testing, it is a better O-ring.

Interesting. I won't argue with your anecdotal evidence. Are you talking fuel or hydraulic filters and pumps? If hydraulic filters, pressure side or suction side? Hydraulic pumps and filters run much hotter.

Everything I've read, from rubber manufacturers to OEMs to hydraulics manufacturers say that Buna-N is the material of choice for diesel systems.

 

[bob15]

Interesting. I won't argue with your anecdotal evidence. Are you talking fuel or hydraulic filters and pumps? If hydraulic filters, pressure side or suction side? Hydraulic pumps and filters run much hotter.

Everything I've read, from rubber manufacturers to OEMs to hydraulics manufacturers say that Buna-N is the material of choice for diesel systems.

Used to (was laid off last October due to the company moving engineering south and me having no desire to move to either NC or SC) work on fuel systems ....from filters to pumps to injectors. We made a complete package for OEM's and re-man's. Worked for a couple years in the filter lab before moving to pumps.

I had injection pumps (experimental applications) that would run over 225F on a test stand and the engine would actually cool them off and it would stay at ~190F when running on a dyno.

Fuel filters & pumps in general would be tested in temps from -40F to 250F.

 

[bob15]

For what it's worth the Parker O ring handbook says that Buna-n is the proper O ring for diesel oil.

Not really the only or proper O-ring for DF. Viton is also rated as a #1 and has a higher temp range.

For fuel and hydraulic systems:

https://www.sealingdevices.com/viton-o-rings

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/fluorocarbon-75-durometer-o-ring-green-vw173-75

 

[bwringer]

We have no idea what the OP's application is, other than it somehow involves diesel.

 

[garfunkle24]

We have no idea what the OP's application is, other than it somehow involves diesel.

Except the part where he said it's a low pressure diesel filter/water separator on a John Deere?

Not really the only or proper O-ring for DF. Viton is also rated as a #1 and has a higher temp range.

For fuel and hydraulic systems:

https://www.sealingdevices.com/viton-o-rings

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/fluorocarbon-75-durometer-o-ring-green-vw173-75

Yes, but the application doesn't higher heat handling capacity. What about low temperatures? As pointed out, this application would not benefit from higher heat tolerance but in a lot of places, for a lot of people, it would benefit from better cold temp performance.

 

[csp]

OP's location is given. Not an area of a northern US state or Canada. Since the OPs intended use is being singled out, let's consider the location as well.

Not one person who mentioned using Viton gave a categorically wrong answer.

Not one person said Nitrile isn't correct.

One person made lots of assumptions about what others do or don't know or what their personal experience with a product may be, because Nitrile seals better at lower temperatures. Yay

 

[908Jim]

OP's location is given. Not an area of a northern US state or Canada. Since the OPs intended use is being singled out, let's consider the location as well.

Not one person who mentioned using Viton gave a categorically wrong answer.

Not one person said Nitrile isn't correct.

One person made lots of assumptions about what others do or don't know or what their personal experience with a product may be, because Nitrile seals better at lower temperatures. Yay

^^THIS. Lots of anecdotal stuff in this thread.

For a dynamic seal (rotating or sliding) chemical compatibility is essential, along with a proper gland design. Static seals can sacrifice a bit on compatibility or toughness.

Based on what little info I have, for this simple static seal, Nitrile/NBR/Buna-N or Viton/FKM would likely be totally fine.

Check page 179
https://www.parker.com/Literature/O-Ring Division Literature/ORD 5700.pdf

 

[garfunkle24]

One person made lots of assumptions about what others do or don't know or what their personal experience with a product may be, because Nitrile seals better at lower temperatures. Yay

Lol. Passive aggressive much? Just say who you mean.

I made zero assumptions, I simply pointed out that per all technical info available, Viton is not the ideal material here. I would rather be a dissenting voice than a sheeple giving bad advice. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Based on what little info I have, for this simple static seal, Nitrile/NBR/Buna-N or Viton/FKM would likely be totally fine.

Check page 179
https://www.parker.com/Literature/O-Ring Division Literature/ORD 5700.pdf

I wasn't talking about what was "fine" or what was "satisfactory" per Parker's chart, I was talking about what was best suited for the application.

This is my last post in this thread. I can't be bothered arguing. I'm sure the OP has enough context and info to pick his poison.

 

[Firebrick43]

I agree with garfunkle. Mobile application in Ohio could/will be exposed to -15 degrees F and there for viton shouldn't be used.

The large diesel engines that I was part of building a Caterpillar went to the most remote parts of the world including antartica and the hotest deserts. Hospital and Navy ships backup power, tugs, fracking and fire pumps. Nuclear power backup pumps. All applications where failure was unconsciable.

If they could trade their first born to guarantee no leaks they would. Insane the hours of engineering of parts, processes, and training to ensure leak free joints. They didn't care if things cost a few dollars more to prevent leaks, they used the best for the application. And 95 percent was nbr. Only a few viton orings were on non water cooled turbo oil lines.

Also viton on face seals will erode more than nitrile. May not matter to most bt for a product that has 25000 hour rebuild life and then was remanufactured it mattered. You could easily see/feel the erosion on the cast iron faces when some well intentioned mechanic used a viton oring (because the must be better right!)

 

[skippydoo]

I fix gas stations for a living. We can't use buna orings on gas or diesel anymore. New from the factory they come with fluorosilicone o-rings. Those are brutal$$, so we use Viton whenever we can and have good results. Both gas and diesel are not what the used to be, mostly diesel, and its so corrosive.

 

[Kevin54]

Seriously? Everyone getting in a ******* contest over what material to use? ****....I'd just go to John Deere and get what they use and call it a day. Or replace it with what you have on hand and if it ends up leaking replace it with something else. With the way everyone is arguing back and forth, you'll end up with something from NASA costing tens of thousands of dollars.

 

[walrus]

I fix gas stations for a living. We can't use buna orings on gas or diesel anymore. New from the factory they come with fluorosilicone o-rings. Those are brutal$$, so we use Viton whenever we can and have good results. Both gas and diesel are not what the used to be, mostly diesel, and its so corrosive.

Wayne isn't using fluorosilicone on their meters last time I was in one. PMP sells rebuild kits with silicone Orings though. Viton is used on most under pump check valves.

 

[skippydoo]

Wayne isn't using fluorosilicone on their meters last time I was in one. PMP sells rebuild kits with silicone Orings though. Viton is used on most under pump check valves.

Every new wayne we take apart has blue fluorosilicone O-rings . Meters, bump -orings, valve orings.
We use viton o rings from mcmaster for meter side plates and bump orings. If your intrested in saving $$, message me for part numbers

Mike

 

[gbynum]

Viton (fluoroelastomer); Viton is DuPont's tradename or nitrile. I've been in the hydraulics industry for 35 years, and have found nitrile to seal VERY SLIGHTLY better; a few times a system had leaks and I suggested nitrile for an improvement.

If high temperatures or chemicals are involved, the compound will be controlled by that.

 

[Gear Box]

My question is-what type of o-ring was on that solid rocket booster-just to keep you guys rolling!

 

[garfunkle24]

My question is-what type of o-ring was on that solid rocket booster-just to keep you guys rolling!

They were Viton, thanks for setting that up

https://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v1ch6.htm#:~:text=The%20Solid%20Rocket%20Motor%20O,O%2Dring%20material%20glued%20together.

 

[Jackfre]

I haven’t even read the thread, but one of the things I love about this place is there will be over 36 responses to a question of o-ring material.

 

[walrus]

Every new wayne we take apart has blue fluorosilicone O-rings . Meters, bump -orings, valve orings.
We use viton o rings from mcmaster for meter side plates and bump orings. If your intrested in saving $$, message me for part numbers

Mike

When IMeters first came out many years ago they bragged about no lip seals to replace and yet the things leaked way worse than any 2pm6k I ever saw. So Wayne is using new Orings but it hasn't fixed the leaks out of every cover on the body of the meter? I hated changing those O rings especially in the winter. We used to use a thicker wire Oring and that seemed to fix the issue. Then PMP came out with a kit with new orings and new side covers. We had issues with new IMeter bolts being broken, heads snapped right off after a few weeks in service. Glad I'm doing electrical work now and not pump service

 

[laser3kw]

what kind of material is used on the sealing ring on a Fram oil filter?
Is there a better oil filter?