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Occasional use...NG versus Electric question

fmzip

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Here's the scoop. I live in CT, two car attached garage with 10 foot ceilings, fully insulated walls and ceiling.

I don't do a lot of work in the garage but plan to put a golf simulator out there for use a few times a week in the winter, an hour at a time. Would it make more sense to just use an electric heater versus the expense for a NG heater/install?

Thoughts and suggestions on heaters would be helpful. With both, is it a matter of a few minutes to get the garage heated to say 65 degrees in the dead of winter?
 
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Jackfre

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Well, CT has some of the most expensive electric rates in the country, but the electric heaters will be less costly than a decent gas appliance. How much panel space do you have for electric and where is your gas service? As to heating the place up, you will have a deep cold through the space in January. Everything out there will be about 40*and when you touch it, you will know it. You may be able to get the air temp up quickly, but the area still feels cold. In your decision, consider that if you do a good job on this heating addition you may find that space more useful and spend more time out there.
 

Stuart in MN

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For your use I think electric would be fine. Less expensive up front cost and (probably) easier to install, but either way it's going to take more than a few minutes to get the room heated up. As Jackfre said it will depend on what space you have available in your electric panel, and how hard it will be to run a circuit to the garage from there. What you would look for is a called an electric unit heater, it will hang from the wall or ceiling. There are many manufacturers, but it will look something like this: https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...ount-5000-watt-240v-208v-with-thermostat-gray


You can get small electric space heaters that simply plug into the wall, but they are going to be limited to 1500 watts so you'd need several of them to get enough heat to make a difference. Plus,you can only have one plugged into a particular circuit at a time, so it would only work if you have several circuits available in the garage.
 
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fmzip

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My electrical panel has plenty of room and both that and the NG line are readily accessible
 
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fmzip

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I was thinking that if I went NG it may make more sense to vent off the right hand wall versus dealing with cutting the roof?

Thoughts?

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Bretny

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It will take more than a few minutes to heat up no matter nat gas or electric. I live in ny and have about the same size garage. My 45kbtu propane takes about 2hrs to settle going from 35* to 65*. It will take alot of heat to get the floor and a car warm.

If you cant do the electric your self then i would assume the install will be a wash. Nat gas will be cheaper to run.
 

Showkey

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45k will do 1000 sqft ..........no problem

5000 watt 17k will do it too..........just have to plan way ahead.........you will notice it on the electric bill even with occasional use.
 
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fmzip

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I can do the electrical...

Seems like NG is the way to go though. Need to find someone to install it though. Is this na HVAC job or a plumber?

Are the Mr.Heater NG heaters any good or does it make more sense just to get a hot dawg?
 
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fmzip

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What are the electric rates in CT? What is “expensive“?


They **** us for everything in CT, electricity is far more costly than NG and our rates are ridiculous...It's the "delivery" charge that Eversource charges which is the problem.

I just pulled the trigger on a Mr. Heater Big Maxx Natural Gas Garage/Workshop Unit Heater 50,000 BTU from Northern tool. Is there a programmable thermostat that will work with low temps with this heater? Thinking I may like to have a warm car in the in the morning.

Besides this roof vent kit, what else will I need?

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200578252_200578252

Is it a "thimble" that I use to pass the pipe through the garage ceiling into the attic?
 
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fmzip

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Just found out as I was wiring a new electrical outlet that my side exterior wall has ZERO insulation. I assume that the garage door walls are empty too. Would it be a waste of dollars to have these walls filled spray filled with Cellulose insulation since I am just using the garage heat on occasion? I went with the 50,000 BTU MR heater as mentioned.

I have R49 in the ceiling, and the left and front wall are interior insulated walls

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wyb2

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Just found out as I was wiring a new electrical outlet that my side exterior wall has ZERO insulation. I assume that the garage door walls are empty too. Would it be a waste of dollars to have these walls filled spray filled with Cellulose insulation since I am just using the garage heat on occasion? I went with the 50,000 BTU MR heater as mentioned.

I have R49 in the ceiling, and the left and front wall are interior insulated walls


Was going to suggest the electric heater as that's what I had in a similar space in southern NH, but see you went with the 50K BTU gas heater. That thing should have no trouble keeping up even without insulating those other walls, though it will use more gas. Might be against code to heat an 'uninsulated' space, if you care (I didn't).
 
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fmzip

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GEEZ......got my first quote to install this heater! $2639!!!! The gas line is where my red line starts! $950 for material, $1440 for labor plus tax

I'll be buying an electric one and DIY'ing if that's the going rate throwing this one to the curb!
 

kelpaso1

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If you have NG then that is the way to go. As for the gas fitter, well he is bending you over pretty hard in my opinion :wtf:

NG is way cheaper and if you just leave the garage at a constant say 50f then everything stays warm and doesn't cost more than about $30-40/month. Called thermal mass. Keep the floor, walls. equipment, tools, and every thing else warm and it takes less energy unless you only heat it once a week. You would probably use the garage more often especially since it's attached. This is the Garage Journal after all and you are a member :bounce:
 
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fmzip

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If you have NG then that is the way to go. As for the gas fitter, well he is bending you over pretty hard in my opinion :wtf:

NG is way cheaper and if you just leave the garage at a constant say 50f then everything stays warm and doesn't cost more than about $30-40/month. Called thermal mass. Keep the floor, walls. equipment, tools, and every thing else warm and it takes less energy unless you only heat it once a week. You would probably use the garage more often especially since it's attached. This is the Garage Journal after all and you are a member :bounce:

Thing is, the golf simulator project is already breaking the bank! I was thinking I would be raped minimally at say $1000, this quote is ridiculous! If I could only find some confidence and get on the roof and cut the hole for the vent, I'd hang the unit and get my regular plumber involved.

Anyone in the Hartford CT that can recommend anyone?
 
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kelpaso1

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Also, can you not hang the heater your self and have the electrical run to it and he just does running the gas pipe and hooks up electrical for it, or is the quote for him doing all of that. If it is the labor, its a bit high but not unreasonable. The materials, does that include the heater?
 
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fmzip

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Also, can you not hang the heater your self and have the electrical run to it and he just does running the gas pipe and hooks up electrical for it, or is the quote for him doing all of that. If it is the labor, its a bit high but not unreasonable. The materials, does that include the heater?

The quote is for the running the gas line, vent and permit. His $950 for material is for black pipe and vent and struts. His $1440 labor is for 2 guys at $90 for 8 hours each.


I already ran the electrical and have the heater....I can get my sheetrock buddy over to use his lift to hang the heater if need be. I am just not comfortable getting on the roof and cutting a hole. Side vent due to the soffit looks to be an eyesore.
 

bottom feeder

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If you're not yet totally committed to the gas heater, consider the following for what its worth...

If I were in your situation (actually, I kinda was) I'd start with a 5000 watt 240V electric. They're relatively cheap ($250-ish plus wire and miscellaneous), easy to install (no vent holes in wall or ceiling/roof), and for all intents maintenance free. Quiet too. Do you have an electric clothes dryer? If so, do you lose sleep over the cost of running it? No? Then the occasional use of an electric heater isn't going to bother you. Mine heats my drywalled two car attached w/insulated ceiling/non-insulated outside walls garage just fine. Give it a half hour or so head start, maybe a little longer if it's really cold. Shut it off when you're ready to go back into the house.

If it doesn't meet your needs sell it/trash it/give it away and go with the pricier gas option. Or double-down and add a second electric...
 
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fmzip

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If you're not yet totally committed to the gas heater, consider the following for what its worth...

If I were in your situation (actually, I kinda was) I'd start with a 5000 watt 240V electric. They're relatively cheap ($250-ish plus wire and miscellaneous), easy to install (no vent holes in wall or ceiling/roof), and for all intents maintenance free. Quiet too. Do you have an electric clothes dryer? If so, do you lose sleep over the cost of running it? No? Then the occasional use of an electric heater isn't going to bother you. Mine heats my drywalled two car attached w/insulated ceiling/non-insulated outside walls garage just fine. Give it a half hour or so head start, maybe a little longer if it's really cold. Shut it off when you're ready to go back into the house.

Yep, this is where my head was at at first, may end up back there. I was doing the math and thought I could literally throw out the gas heater and go electrical and be way ahead of the game if in fact that's the real installation price from others in my area.

I feel like I am getting the upscale neighborhood rates....
 
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fmzip

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Man, this gas heater may be more of a PITA than it's worth. Most recent installer thinks I may need a new gas meter and a bigger main line. Reason being:

Tankless hot water heater 180K BTU's
Furnace 80K
Cooktop 60K
Outdoor grill 50K
Fireplace 30K
Garage heater 50K

He said he has to prove out the calculation to town hall that the existing setup will support it. Really, I would never be running everything at the same time. Cooking dinner with all 5 burners on, cooking outside too, running a shower, sitting in front of the fireplace and working out in the garage. I get it but seems like BS to me.

For what it's worth, it's best to do your home work before buying a heater. Looks like I may be going down the electrical road shortly! Anyone looking for a 50K heater in CT send me a message :)

Looking for suggestions on electric heaters, do most work with a separate thermostat? How can you turn the the thing on with it being 8 ft off the floor? Ladder all the time? What are some quality units that I should be considering? Is 5000watts enough?
 
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Showkey

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That tankless is the problem.
It comes up all the time..........many posts on the tankless pros and cons.
Same for tankless electric and new service needed to supply the power.

The NG supplier usually supplies the meter upgrade for free the larger pipe through the home is the costly part.

5000 watts is about 17,000 btu.........you were considering 50,000 btu NG unit. So it will take a long time to heat the room and contents. Obviously much longer on 0* with wind than a 40* calm day. 10,000. Watts would do the job twice as fast twice the power consumption but at the same costs to operate.
 
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fmzip

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That tankless is the problem.
It comes up all the time..........many posts on the tankless pros and cons.
Same for tankless electric and new service needed to supply the power.

The NG supplier usually supplies the meter upgrade for free the larger pipe through the home is the costly part.

5000 watts is about 17,000 btu.........you were considering 50,000 btu NG unit. So it will take a long time to heat the room and contents. Obviously much longer on 0* with wind than a 40* calm day. 10,000. Watts would do the job twice as fast twice the power consumption but at the same costs to operate.

Just got another quote of $3970. Interesting though neither is upgrading anything, simply tapping in. My first quote of $2600 is looking like a bargain.

Would I really run into a problem with not upgrading the meter? It's just me and my wife. I will just tell her not to run all 5 cooktop burners at once and not to then turn on the outdoor grill and cook 27 steaks, while warming up by the fireplace while taking a hot shower and me working in the garage all at the same time......

Now I'm just wondering if I spend the $2600 for install, how long would it take me to recoup the costs over going electric. I'm already in it for $400 for the gas heater, I'm guessing if I DIY an electric I'm in that for $500. So electric would stand me $900 if I can't sell the heater versus $3000 for the gas.

So the difference of $2100....that is the question. And, do I really need to upgrade my meter and then the main inside the house?? Pay now or pay later with bigger electric bills?? Damn, all for a little bit of heat in the garage on rare occasion!
 
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bottom feeder

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Looking for suggestions on electric heaters, do most work with a separate thermostat? How can you turn the the thing on with it being 8 ft off the floor? Ladder all the time? What are some quality units that I should be considering? Is 5000watts enough?

I chose the Marley Fahrenheat FUH54 unit:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fahrenheat-5-000-Watt-Unit-Heater-FUH54/202043073

The same heater made by the same manufacturer (Marley) is sold under many brand names. This heater has a built-in thermostat. The general idea is to turn it on, wait for the room to reach the temperature you want, then slowly turn down the thermostat knob until the thermostat clicks off. Then leave it there, and the unit will cycle on and off as needed to maintain that temperature. It's a fairly crude, but simple way to operate. Marley offers a remote thermostat option if you'd prefer, which would make it easier to adjust without getting the ladder out. Also, if for some reason you decide that 5000 watts is overkill you can rewire the unit to other, lower, wattage values by rearranging some jumper wires inside.

Based on info from other Garage Journal posts, I made a slight modification to mine and added a 30amp switch on my wall that essentially serves to toggle the unit's thermostat on and off. That way I can flip the switch to turn off the heating unit but the fan continues to run to extract the remaining heat as well as cool the heating unit down, then it stays off until you flip the switch back on again. It's important to note that with this setup the heater still has full 240V power flowing to it even though the switch is "off", so you have to toggle the circuit breaker back at the panel to shut off all the power if you truly want the heater to be "off".

You can opt for a higher wattage version if you think you'll need it. I chose to try out the less expensive 5000 watt unit first, and haven't had a need to upsize.

Pay now or pay later with bigger electric bills?? Damn, all for a little bit of heat in the garage on rare occasion!

That's why I went electric. If you want to maintain a warm garage all the time, electric is probably not the right choice, and indeed may be the worst choice (I'm considering other options for my new detached garage). And honestly at 5000 watts it will take a little while to get the room up to temperature, so set your expectations accordingly - 30-45 minutes depending on how cold it is and how warm you want the space to get. If, like me, you're going to be out there on the occasional weekend for a few hours it's hard to beat (in my opinion). I've positioned mine fairly close to where I'm typically working, so I can feel the warmth even before the whole space warms up. And in the wintertime a 55-60 degree garage feels a lot warmer than a 55-60 degree day feels in the summertime.

Good luck whatever you choose to do!
 

Showkey

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Just got another quote of $3970. Interesting though neither is upgrading anything, simply tapping in. My first quote of $2600 is looking like a bargain.

Would I really run into a problem with not upgrading the meter? It's just me and my wife. I will just tell her not to run all 5 cooktop burners at once and not to then turn on the outdoor grill and cook 27 steaks, while warming up by the fireplace while taking a hot shower and me working in the garage all at the same time......


So the difference of $2100....that is the question. And, do I really need to upgrade my meter and then the main inside the house?? Pay now or pay later with bigger electric bills?? Damn, all for a little bit of heat in the garage on rare occasion!


Meters are rated for a certain flow at a certain pressure. Huge load of that tankless is the issue. They are concerned of under firing other devices when that tankless in running. The cook top and grill are not a real concern. But all the devices add up. It like running a modern home on a 100 amp electric service when it should be 200 or 300 or even a 400 amp when you electric tankless and outbuilding with 100-200 amp to run welders, plasma and AC.

Only a pro can tell you about the service size and pipe size. Was the tankless there from new or was it an update install later. If was from new the meter and piping is likely sized correctly. If it was an upgrade then it could be a question. Guess the worst case would be half through the heater install and the say.......oops we need more money cuz the pipe or meter is undersized:shocking:
 
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fmzip

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Only a pro can tell you about the service size and pipe size. Was the tankless there from new or was it an update install later.

Tankless was installed one year after the house was built in 2006....

We've been living here for 2 years just my wife and I, no issues thus far. Is it as simple as don't run the garage heater with the shower on?? Last winter I had my gas fireplace on, furnace running and a shower....no issues?

The tankless is mounted 5 ft off the main coming into the house. That looked to be intentional as it could have been closer to the actual tankless hardware. Furnace is next in line. Garage heater would be furthest run, similar distance to where my 30K fireplace is. Would a good test be to crank all my gas appliance on right now at the same time and see if they all work? If say the fireplace dims and the stovetop burners do to, I could potentially have a problem then?
 
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oilslick

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Zip, this isn't rocket science, electric is a ripoff. Paying $$$$ for furnace install =ripoff. Is this really beyond your ability or are you not interested in putting in the effort? I installed my 50k Mr htr on a Saturday including going to menards for everything! I have an old manual rigid pipe threader, it would have been a pain to do the 35' of 3/4 -1/2 black pipe without it but home depot threads pipe free if u buy it there. Just do it, this stuff is pretty enjoyable, with payback every time you step into garage this winter.
 
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fmzip

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Zip, this isn't rocket science, electric is a ripoff. Paying $$$$ for furnace install =ripoff. Is this really beyond your ability or are you not interested in putting in the effort? I installed my 50k Mr htr on a Saturday including going to menards for everything! I have an old manual rigid pipe threader, it would have been a pain to do the 35' of 3/4 -1/2 black pipe without it but home depot threads pipe free if u buy it there. Just do it, this stuff is pretty enjoyable, with payback every time you step into garage this winter.

I've never done anything with gas plumbing. I am very handy, can handle electrical, framing, working on cars etc. This is out of my comfort zone. I may just pay for the install but now I am starting to wonder if I am already undersized at the meter. Just don't want to turn a simple project into a $5000 project by messing with the gas capacity
 

Skiff Builder

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fmzip,
To heat your garage for the golf sim use , I would use an infrared gas. I have one in a garage for occasional use. It warms objects first ( you included). You feel it on yourself immediately ,like the sun on your back when golfing.
They are inexpensive > $300, non vented but you wont need to run it long,no electric, 25K btu ,easy install. I used 3/8 soft copper line to feed mine. Was my first gas project back in the day. 20+ years old ,zero issues.Makes it comfortable to walk in a cold garage and go right to work.



SkiffBuilder
 

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6768rogues

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I would use a small Reznor hanging NG heater. They are power vented so you can simply go straight out through the sidewall, they offer models that are listed for residential use and are appropriate in an attached garage, it would be up and out of the way, and it will heat up your garage in a matter of minutes. You could do everything yourself except the gas hookup if you don't feel comfortable doing that. A professional can do the gas work pretty quickly. Once you heat the space, you will find other reasons to be out there.
 
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couch67

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I'd go electric and wouldn't look back. With occasional use on weekends (lowest rates, assuming you are on time of use billing), your cost would be pretty minimal. Say your 5kw heater runs for 2 hours STRAIGHT (unlikely), that would be 10 kwh. If your power costs you $0.20 per kwh including delivery charges and all the other bs, then you are looking at $2.00 for that two hours session. Do that 4 times in a month and it is still less than $10.

So for a long winter (4 months?) that would mean $40. Would take a lot of years to catch up to that very expensive NG heater install.

Of course these calculations fall apart quickly if you heat the garage more often or want to keep it to a minimum temperature all the time. First thing I would do then is insulate.

couch
 

Showkey

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Sorry calculations fall apart in the size and function of small heater in large space............but 5kw electric heater is not going to raise the 35* garage to comfortable temp in two hours.
 
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