Odd Generator issue

[Sumboodie]

Today we had a power outage so I pulled out my Generac 5500 watt gen set. Claims like 6800 "starting" watts or around that. Fairly new unit, maybe 6-7 years old, if that.
Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing:

Generac 5500-Watt Recoil Start Gas-Powered Portable Generator 5939 - The Home Depot

Get reliable power when and where you need using Gasoline Powered Portable Generator from Generac. Features low-tone mufflers for quieter operation.

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Used at my old place a couple years ago during a several day outage, worked ok.

All seemed ok till I realized the well piping was sort of humming and then noticed it wouldn't build water pressure past about 55psi. Normally it's on at about 45-50 and off around 65-70.
I checked voltage and I was sitting at about 245v.
It was loading down the generator like I'd expect.

Tested the dryer and it seemed to work, but didn't sound right. Hmm.

The boiler then came on, it's 120v, maybe 300 watts. It came on but the inducer fan sounded odd and something was causing the boiler to vibrate to the point I thought it was an airplane outside at first.

I started wondering if it was something strange with my wiring so I ran a cord out and just plugged in the boiler to the 120v outlet on the generator and no difference.

Edit... just remembered the boiler is actually on 2 outlets. The one I plugged direct to the gen set I think is only the boiler, no circulator pumps.

Everything else seemed to work ok. Washing machine had been in when the power went out, it finished the load. Lights worked fine, fridge. Battery chargers, etc.

I wanted to verify the frequency but the kill a watt meter I had **** the bed a while back. I ordered a replacement on Black's Friday but it hasn't arrived yet.

Any ideas?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds like the frequency/hz was off to me

 

[Sumboodie]

Should I be looking at inverter gen sets?

Do the larger home backup units have dirty power too? I have a natural gas 7kw Generac im planning to install in a year or 3.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Need to check the frequency……… I had a customer that had a cheap Generac that would not work on certain appliances but worked great with others.

TIP! Buy a Honda……… You will thank me later!

 

[larry_g]

never mind , old thread. Are we to assume the pump now works fine on mains power?

 

[Sumboodie]

Found a 6500 watt inverter generator in Amazon Worehouse deals for $720 so said the heck with it, I'll sell the other one.

 

[ToolsRCool]

Any chance you checked the frequency (RPM) of your prior generator? That may have been the issue, it was with my neighbors. Throttle plate was gummed into a fixed position. Generic appliances worked, electronic ones did not. Cleaned his carb, adjusted the governor for a no-load 61.5Hz output, and done. Everything worked after that, including the generator having way more electrical output power in being able to throttle up when load was applied.

 

[Sumboodie]

Any chance you checked the frequency (RPM) of your prior generator? That may have been the issue, it was with my neighbors. Throttle plate was gummed into a fixed position. Generic appliances worked, electronic ones did not. Cleaned his carb, adjusted the governor for a no-load 61.5Hz output, and done. Everything worked after that, including the generator having way more electrical output power in being able to throttle up when load was applied.

Gauge is ordered to check. If it's off, it's not crazy off based off engine rpm.

 

[Sumboodie]

Got the frequency tester and it was only running at 53hz.

I adjusted it to 60, but it dances around a fair bit, somewhat stays at 60, but will go between around 58-62. Probably what causes my lights to flicker a little.

Not sold that the Champion inverter generator is better in quality, but it's rock steady at 60hz and much quieter. No lights flicker, everything seems to work like it was on grid power.

It's an odd design where the making power part is by the recoil. No alternator in the PTO side like most other units.

Do any standby units have inverters for clean power? I haven't much in portables over around 10kw and 5-7kw is more common.

 

[dcg9381]

Do any standby units have inverters for clean power? I haven't much in portables over around 10kw and 5-7kw is more common.

I have a gererac 20k "whole house" - and nothing complains. Lucky? Maybe.
We have tested a bunch of EVSEs on 7-12k generators and not all of them like non-inverter generator power... So YMMV.

I'm pretty much just buying inverter generators now.

 

[75gmck25]

I don’t know about current products, but the 10kw military generators we used to use were only “portable” when bolted to a trailer and moved around with a pickup or larger truck. We usually had two generators on each trailer, and the ability to switch between them to keep power on when servicing and refueling.

 

[dave*99]

How's this for current products?

16,000 Watt Dual Fuel Portable Inverter Generator w/ CO Alert​

 

[dcg9381]

How's this for current products?

Our business owns two of these. They are about as big as you can get with inverter tech. Pricey at $5k. They're currently backordered. They've been flawless and can do 240V @50A continuous.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Damn thats a beast

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do the larger home backup units have dirty power too?

IMHO ...

People get too overly concerned about "dirty power". Inverter generators are the best, but most other generators are not that bad, once they have warmed up for a minute before applying a load.

The worst ones are "brushless" generators. They typically have very high THD.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have a gererac 20k "whole house" - and nothing complains.

My buddy paid extra for a Kohler. His neighbor has a Generac.

Last power outage the neighbors unit would start, run for a while and shut down and then restart (bad power from the POCO). His Kohler stayed on all of the time. He has some pricey computer equipment (big NAS server). When the batteries died on his UPS, he sold it, that is how much faith he has in his Kohler.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My buddy paid extra for a Kohler. His neighbor has a Generac.

Last power outage the neighbors unit would start, run for a while and shut down and then restart (bad power from the POCO). His Kohler stayed on all of the time.

This is entirely dependent on the settings in the transfer switch...

He has some pricey computer equipment (big NAS server). When the batteries died on his UPS, he sold it, that is how much faith he has in his Kohler.

that makes no sense at all. a generator cannot instantly start and instantly provide power to a server in nanoseconds, upon PoCo power loss.... without a UPS, the server would shutoff and then turn back on when the generator starts providing power. This is not good for a server. pretty foolish to rely on a generator like that.

 

[rlitman]

My buddy paid extra for a Kohler. His neighbor has a Generac.

Last power outage the neighbors unit would start, run for a while and shut down and then restart (bad power from the POCO). His Kohler stayed on all of the time. He has some pricey computer equipment (big NAS server). When the batteries died on his UPS, he sold it, that is how much faith he has in his Kohler.

He sold his UPS on faith in his generator? I don't get it. No generator in the world is going to predict the future and start BEFORE an outage. It takes seconds for an engine to start and stabilize before your ATS will pick up the generator and connect it to the load. That's what a UPS is for, and your NAS is NOT going to ride out those seconds, waiting for the generator to start. Perhaps if you had an in-phase transfer option, it MIGHT be able to stay up when the ATS switches back to utility, but that still cannot cover the initial loss.

On the enterprise data storage side, there's usually a battery or super capacitor backup option that keeps an in-flight DRAM cache alive long enough to commit down to SSD storage for a transactionally consistent shutdown ("graceful"), but your database still will need transaction recovery, and that's assuming it was writing synchronously to some safe form of storage. Best case scenario, you've still got significant down-time from what should have been a non-event. And considering what the cost of this class of storage and database licensing is, UPS cost just isn't significant.

 

[PCustoms]

This is entirely dependent on the settings in the transfer switch...

that makes no sense. a generator cannot instantly start and provide power to a server in nanoseconds.... without a UPS the server would shutoff and then turn back on when the generator starts providing power. pretty foolish to rely on a generator like that.

Generally theoldwizard1 really doesn't know what he's talking about

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Generally theoldwizard1 really doesn't know what he's talking about

yeah lots of misinformation posted by him over the years

 

[ToolsRCool]

Got the frequency tester and it was only running at 53hz.

I adjusted it to 60, but it dances around a fair bit, somewhat stays at 60, but will go between around 58-62. Probably what causes my lights to flicker a little.

Not sold that the Champion inverter generator is better in quality, but it's rock steady at 60hz and much quieter. No lights flicker, everything seems to work like it was on grid power.

It's an odd design where the making power part is by the recoil. No alternator in the PTO side like most other units.

Do any standby units have inverters for clean power? I haven't much in portables over around 10kw and 5-7kw is more common.

Glad to hear, it was out of spec as a few suspected. That will be enough to cause issues on items that monitor such. A lot of gensets will be set around 62Hz no-load to account for approx 60Hz loaded. The governor controls it in majority, but just an FYI.

 

[rlitman]

Generally theoldwizard1 really doesn't know what he's talking about

I can't say I've been keeping score on the correct-o-meter, and it would be presumptuous for me to claim that I'm doing any better, so I'll stay out of that.

But I will say I've just been through a week of cursing Generac, for what that's worth. Not that I have any allusions that the grass is any greener on the Kohler side.

 

[theoldwizard1]

He sold his UPS on faith in his generator? I don't get it. No generator in the world is going to predict the future and start BEFORE an outage. It takes seconds for an engine to start and stabilize before your ATS will pick up the generator and connect it to the load. That's what a UPS is for, and your NAS is NOT going to ride out those seconds, waiting for the generator to start.

that makes no sense at all. a generator cannot instantly start and instantly provide power to a server in nanoseconds, upon PoCo power loss....

You are 100% correct ! He was more concerned with the power spikes coming from the POCO !

 

[theoldwizard1]

But I will say I've just been through a week of cursing Generac, for what that's worth. Not that I have any allusions that the grass is any greener on the Kohler side.

Hence my reference to my friend who has done Generac vs. Kohler comparison, side by side !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You are 100% correct ! He was more concerned with the power spikes coming from the POCO !

and a generator will not help with that either. again thats what a UPS is for...

 

[PCustoms]

 

[dcg9381]

Last power outage the neighbors unit would start, run for a while and shut down and then restart (bad power from the POCO). His Kohler stayed on all of the time. He has some pricey computer equipment (big NAS server). When the batteries died on his UPS, he sold it, that is how much faith he has in his Kohler.

I dunno which is more reliable - Generac or Kohler. Seem kinda built the same. I'm not a fan of Generac's "end user" service, they push you to a "dealer" even on warranty.

But even datacenters, they rely on UPS power to bridge the gap of time between the grid going down and the generator starting.

 

[Sumboodie]

I can't say I've been keeping score on the correct-o-meter, and it would be presumptuous for me to claim that I'm doing any better, so I'll stay out of that.

But I will say I've just been through a week of cursing Generac, for what that's worth. Not that I have any allusions that the grass is any greener on the Kohler side.

Not familiar with a correct-o-meter. I used a knock off Kill-a-watt

 

[Sumboodie]

You are 100% correct ! He was more concerned with the power spikes coming from the POCO !

I didn't have a UPS. Have no need for instant on with anything.
Just mainly need the place to not freeze or the fridge and freezer to thaw. Anything beyond that like lights, water, microwave is a nicety.

 

[Sumboodie]

Hence my reference to my friend who has done Generac vs. Kohler comparison, side by side !

My Generac natural gas unit (yet to be installed) is Kohler powered

 

[Sumboodie]

IMHO ...

People get too overly concerned about "dirty power". Inverter generators are the best, but most other generators are not that bad, once they have warmed up for a minute before applying a load.

The worst ones are "brushless" generators. They typically have very high THD.

Even at ~60ish HZ my boiler and well pump didn't sound great. With it dancing around 4-5 hz I guess that's enough? Not sure, just I needed something I could trust if SHTF.

Before at 53hz the well pump wouldn't pump above around 50psi... weird!

Works perfect with the inverter unit.

Several years ago we had a nassty wind storm. -10* and 100mph gusts. No power for 4 or 5 days. Lot of people's houses froze up.
I heated with a Blaze King in my old place so no problems.
New place depends solely on having power to have heat, so definitely need backup.

 

[theoldwizard1]

With (the frequency) dancing around 4-5 hz I guess that's enough? Not sure, just I needed something I could trust if SHTF.

Frequency on non-inverter generators is controlled by engine speed. Is your engine speed bouncing up and down ?

Before at 53hz the well pump wouldn't pump above around 50psi... weird!

Not weird ! Most motor do not work well if they are not within 55-65Hz. 58-62 is much better.

 

[mm08822]

You are 100% correct ! He was more concerned with the power spikes coming from the POCO !

A UPS provides a level of input power filtering so the inverted output is very clean........regardless of the input source.

Eliminating the UPS increased the exposure of the server to spikes, brownouts and harmonics. A UPS can be quickly by-passed if it takes a hit......not so certain for a server.

 

[mm08822]

Frequency on non-inverter generators is controlled by engine speed. Is your engine speed bouncing up and down ?


Not weird ! Most motor do not work well if they are not within 55-65Hz. 58-62 is much better.

If the motor was only receiving 53hz, then it was only running @ 88% speed and therefor lower pump output flowrate and pressure than typically produced while on the grid.

 

[mm08822]

My buddy paid extra for a Kohler. His neighbor has a Generac.

Last power outage the neighbors unit would start, run for a while and shut down and then restart (bad power from the POCO). His Kohler stayed on all of the time. He has some pricey computer equipment (big NAS server). When the batteries died on his UPS, he sold it, that is how much faith he has in his Kohler.

It's all in the parameter settings within each gen. Without comparing both system's configuration, it's a factless statement. Every outage can also be very different in how it occurs and how it ends.

Adjusting these 3 parameters can easily change the uptime.

 

[mm08822]

 

[dave*99]

Wow, thousands of shovelfuls from one source.

 

[Sumboodie]

Wow, thousands of shovelfuls from one source.

Not sure what that has to do with my generator?