Off Grid Well - Options?

[sjvicker]

I'm in the planning stages of developing a SW Washington off-grid property into a future home site over the next 5 years. The property will be on solar, well, septic and propane and I'd like to get the well drilled next Spring. The factor driving off-grid decision is that its about $40k to bring power down the road plus the monthly fee and it appears a full solar setup with backup generator is about $35k. In my opinion battery prices will drop as tech advances. The more research I do on water systems the more uncertain I am about which route to go. I'm looking at 2 options.

1. Standard 240v pump with a pressure tank. The benefit is it's a common system and is in line with what future buyers would expect to see. The short term con seems to be that I'll need to get a generator if I want water before the solar system is installed. Longer term its one more high draw device on the system.

2. Use a solar pump to fill a tank then gravity feed for pressure. I have the elevation needed to get the correct house pressure and am intrigued by these systems: https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/offgrid/ This method cuts batteries out of the system, allows a reserve of water for overcast times, could probably be powered off the generator in a pinch and seems pretty straightforward to getting up and running. There's just something I dont like about having a big reservoir of water sitting in a black tank. I know it shouldn't grow mold but it just seems like it would need to get cleaned occasionally (or frequently).

Has anyone been through this before? What did you do and what would you do differently?

 

[Jackfre]

Not sure of all the specs on this but Grundfos offers some soft start pumps that are more efficient than the standard “lets spin the hub off the elec meter” pumps. I think a good part of your decision is going to be based upon what the well ends up being, depth, output, etc.

 

[tonyciambrone]

Not been through this scenario but a few chime ins

1: water in a reservoir stagnant is a likely candidate for bacterial growth- however- there is a good likelihood that you must or at least should control for biological contamination in your household water/ drinking water system anyways- I.E mechanical filtration, chemical treatment, non-chemical treatment ala UV etc.

2: 240V pump and a tank has 3 things to take a **** on you- pump and the pressure tank and the pressure switch
Solar powered pump plus tank plus controller plus booster pump plus ETC has a lot more things that can and probably will fail.

3: If you are not intending to move up there full-time just table this project until you do- grab a cheap 300 gallon tank and haul water in, use a portable pump until you know what you are doing 'permanently'

 

[kbs2244]

do some research on "bubble pumps"
they have no moving parts down in the hole and could be solar powered

 

[no704]

Could just put an old fashioned hand pump on the well for now, just keep a few gallons on hand to prime it.

 

[jrsavoie]

Could just put an old fashioned hand pump on the well for now, just keep a few gallons on hand to prime it.

That's what we had for filling stock tanks when I was a kid. It was run by the windmill. They also had electric and gas motor conversions for them.

 

[ericm]

Our setup is a 240v well and a 10k gallon tank about 150' up a hill from the house. We're required to have a lot of water in a tank connected to a hydrant for fire fighting No filters or treatment. It's never had a problem growing stuff and never needed to be cleaned in the 25 years we've lived here. And yes, we test the water periodically.

I have not heard of anyone around here with stuff growing in their tank.

 

[larry_g]

All across this great country 100 years ago the windmill was the most common way to raise water.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[BillK]

Sorry I cant answer you question but to me the whole idea sounds wrong. It looks like your initial investment would actually be less by running the grid power to the property. I bet if you look into the monthly maintenance costs of the generator and solar system combined with the price of Propane which I would certainly expect to go up, I think you will better off forgetting about the "off grid" idea. You also mentioned future buyers ? I bet that less than 1% of the population would actually be interested in a house with that type of power setup.

Just my opinion,

 

[WisJim]

Having done this twice, I think that solar with backup is a good idea. Solar is a fraction of the cost when we started our system in 1982, (our first solar was installed to supplement the wind turbine that we used since 1977) and those panels still work. Our first system had a hand pump with a DC motor running a pump jack if we needed more water, otherwise we pumped by hand. Our current house has a small submersible pump that uses the least amount of current of any we could find and runs off our battery and inverter system, just like most "normal" houses. I'm assuming you will install your own solar system, which ought to run about $1 per watt of installed panels, including everything EXCEPT the batteries. For an off grid system you want to minimize your loads, so for us it meant wood heat, hand pumped water most of the time, super efficient refrigeration, no big heating loads, etc. I also have friends whose water system is a rainwater collection system using a buried salvaged stainless steel milk tanker truck for water storage. Of course, not knowing your location we don't know what things might not work for you.

 

[Jackfre]

To our OP, as I read the replies I have to say that your location makes a difference. If you are in the West where we are suffering from fires, excessive heat and power outages, generators, solar and wind make a lot of sense. Utility rates vary greatly. I think I speak for the crew here that letting us know where you live helps us bring the right views. Not always, but generally it helps.
I built my own solar system last year for about half what the pro companies were quoting. I did have an electrician come in but the mounting system and collectors are where the labor component is. I used Wholesale Solar for sizing and supply. They were very good.

 

[dcg9381]

OP, How deep are wells in your area? Makes a big difference.

2: 240V pump and a tank has 3 things to take a **** on you- pump and the pressure tank and the pressure switch
Solar powered pump plus tank plus controller plus booster pump plus ETC has a lot more things that can and probably will fail.

More than that if it's a submersible well. 2 capacitors and you'll certainly want a pump protection system.


I'm in central Texas. I've done properties with a well and this last property I switched to rain water collection. A well around here is over 500' deep, costs $22k+, and the water has a high degree of dissolved solids. We are 100% rain water dependent and collect off our shop building. I can provide calculators to provide metrics what you'd need for water collection based on roof size, avg rainfall, and holding tank capacity. I'm no expert - this is my first time doing it, but it's working great. Rain water is generally very high quality in the rural US and can be "cleaned up" with moderate sediment filtration and UV. It's also WAAAY easier to pump out of a tank that has water above ground level. Literally you could use a simple 12V RV pump for a cabin.

I like the idea of "trucking" water in initially. A few hundred gallons can last quite a while.

I also do residential PV solar as a "hobby" - I don't do batteries, but I'm aware of the newer technology. I'd HIGHLY recommend a backup generator system (probably propane) until you get your power needs "tuned in". Mark up here on residential solar is near 100% if you have it done. If you can wire residential, you can wire solar... First time I did it, I had more 12V DC experience than residential AC.
You will have days, maybe weeks where solar power is at best very marginal. Washington also gets snow - which can blanket solar.

 

[niget2002]

All across this great country 100 years ago the windmill was the most common way to raise water.

lg
no neat sig line

That was my thought. My aunt and uncle still have a working one keeping their stock tank topped off during droughts.

 

[Northislander]

On my last off grid property which I sold 2 years ago(no problem selling) I had a Grundfos SQE solar deep well submersible with 4 - 90 watt panels. On a sunny day it pumped 2 gallons per minute for the 6 hours the sun was on the panels. On a cloudy day it pumped approx. 1/2 a gallon a minute depending how bright the clouds were and pumped for approx. 10 hours a day. The setup i used I had the pump charge 2 119 gallon bladder tanks once they were charged to 70 psi the water was diverted to a 2500 gallon irrigation water tank and then to a 500 gallon potable tank which flowed thru full time when everything else was full so the water didnt become stagnant. These tanks were hooked to a grundfoss scala pump rated at 500 watts draw at 13 gallons. Each spring I washed and rinsed both holding tanks and chlorinated on refill. Probably could have delayed the cleaning to every two years as the tanks wern't very dirty.

 

[TractorJeff]

This makes for some good reading along the same lines as this Thread!

Off-grid property, need power

Looking for opinions and thoughts regarding this quandary I find myself in. I have a property, small 1.4 acre lot in western Montana. It is in a subdivision however there is no local power company servicing the area. Wife and I are mulling the idea of building a modest cabin and a shop on the...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[firebirdparts]

People around here used cisterns sometimes, and really they didn't ever need cleaning. I would not have thought, really, that power requirements were different overall in this case; the cistern is allowing you to flatten the power consumption curve long term. There is some value in that. You'll also have water pressure from gravity at the house, which is nice of course. If I was going to do it, I'd be sure I didn't overspend on the cistern.

 

[sjvicker]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies! I'll try and answer as many questions as I can without going crazy on the multi-quote.

1. I updated my profile to show my location. SW Washington doesn't get any measurable snow to really worry about planning around however a solar system would need to be sized for our 6 months of overcast weather.

2. It's great to hear that cisterns dont have issues with growth in them from some real world experience.

3. the closest wells on record are about 1.25 miles away. Most wells in the greater area are about 100' deep. The closest one is 400' and their neighbor a few hundred yards away is 80'.

4. A propane powered generator is part of the plan to work alongside the solar system. Generac has models that are designed to work with solar systems and charge the batteries from "X%" to "Y%" then shut off.

 

[Jackfre]

The water pumping wind mills are really very good. I put in several Bakers back in the 70’s and they did really well. If you have enough casing width you could do both the mill and a pump.

 

[sjvicker]

Sorry I cant answer you question but to me the whole idea sounds wrong. It looks like your initial investment would actually be less by running the grid power to the property. I bet if you look into the monthly maintenance costs of the generator and solar system combined with the price of Propane which I would certainly expect to go up, I think you will better off forgetting about the "off grid" idea. You also mentioned future buyers ? I bet that less than 1% of the population would actually be interested in a house with that type of power setup.

Just my opinion,

It's great hearing a contrary opinion to the route I'm planning. It's a good "check" on my thought process. One thing driving this decision to go solar is to not have the monthly electric bill. I would rather take an equivalent amount monthly and invest it as part of the off-grid system maintenance bucket for when that need arises.

I was quoted at $40k to run power poles to the property and from there I'd also have to run about 300' to the house. Connecting to grid is a decision that can be independent from the well pump as there is some benefits those systems being independent from one another. One great thing about this area is the temperate climates (for now?) where it rarely gets below freezing in the winter or above 80 in the summer. This should cut down significantly on the propane usage for heating, especially if I can supplement with a wood stove or fireplace if needed.

Solar systems are popping up everywhere around here. I'm not planning to sell but want to keep the "what-if" in mind. A clean looking install of either system will probably go a long way towards simplifying any future troubleshooting and easing any concerns of a future buyer.

 

[dcg9381]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies! I'll try and answer as many questions as I can without going crazy on the multi-quote.


4. A propane powered generator is part of the plan to work alongside the solar system. Generac has models that are designed to work with solar systems and charge the batteries from "X%" to "Y%" then shut off.

IMHO, I think generac is relatively new to the solar game. They are great for generators and transfer switches, but I believe they've "bought" technology to get them into solar. Before you buy what they are selling, seek some customer feedback. Their power monitoring system (PWRview) is an absolute beta (at best) - yet they're selling it as a completed product... At least the app side is *very* beta, the hardware may be ok. Their battery technology was acquired too.

Doing solar + generator, I'd probably seek options that have been in the market for longer or make sure consumer feedback on this new stuff is good.

 

[sjvicker]

good to know about Generac. On the general timeline, if I went the solar well pump route that would be in the Spring but I'd hold off as long as possible on the build before buying solar components and generator for the house. That should give enough time for Generac's solar generator to be tested in the market. It's good advice in general though to not always adopt the newest/untested tech.

 

[dcg9381]

OP, Can you link the solar/generator setup you're looking at?

 

[SteveCh]

We have an offgrid home. We don't run a generator for the pump, we bought a Grunfos soft-start 120-volt model which we run, when needed, during sunny times. I built a 2000-gal cistern which is a few feet below the house, 100' above the well. I pump the cistern up when needed, provide house pressure with a DC Dankoff pump into a pressure tank.

This has been going for 30+ years. I clean out the cistern maybe every three years or so. There is very fine [invisible in the well water] sediment which over a few years collects on the bottom of the cistern. That is what I clean out.

I thought I would need a 220 v pump, but I talked to the well-drilling co. and went over our situation and they recommended this one. The soft-start feature is key. I believe it cost me $100 extra for that feature on the pump, very worth it. I get 5-gal per minute flow, and that is up the 100' climb from the well [very steep property here and the well had to be down there].

I have not calculated how many watts of panels I need to run that pump. I tied that circuit into our house system and as I said we only turn on that pump during sunny spells.

 

[sjvicker]

This is the kit I'm looking at for the well setup. https://shop.rpssolarpumps.com/coll...series-d-deep-well-solar-pump-kits-over-300ft

for the house I'm too far out to really give it too much thought. I have been following the Wild Wonderfull Off-Grid couple on youtube over the past few years and do like the Schneider components and I have Victron components on my RV so I'd like to stick with a recognizable brand name.

 

[redmondjp]

A propane-powered generator would work well for that situation. I would have one, even better, two 500-gallon tanks on site that can be connected in parallel. That will probably provide fuel for all needs (generator, cooking, heating, possibly refrigeration) for a year if not longer. You can run the well pump periodically in order to fill up the uphill tank.

 

[Docbentley]

In SW Washington you have overcast and rain from about October 1 to June 1 (lived several years in Gig Harbor). Solar is a bad idea. Spend the bucks on the electrical run.

 

[dcg9381]

This is the kit I'm looking at for the well setup. https://shop.rpssolarpumps.com/coll...series-d-deep-well-solar-pump-kits-over-300ft

for the house I'm too far out to really give it too much thought. I have been following the Wild Wonderfull Off-Grid couple on youtube over the past few years and do like the Schneider components and I have Victron components on my RV so I'd like to stick with a recognizable brand name.

You'll need to know the well depth. You've got local variation of 300'.
What I don't like about this setup as it's "dedicated" And most of the time it's going to be sitting around doing nothing. It doesn't seem to include any battery capacity, so this is a dedicated array that provides 220V 3-phase for this pump. If there is some means of leveraging this power with another inverter, I could be swayed, but I don't see it.

It's also designed to pump into another tank (float switch). Your primary water pressure would be out of that tank. This sort of setup works great where I am, but you've got to deal with freezing temps - you'll need something (like a cistern) that isn't at risk of long term freeze... IE - you'll need 2 full pump setups.

I think I'd rather see an inverter setup that can drive a standard 240V single phase pump with no fancy solar-specific control system. Pump or controller goes bad, you can deal with that locally. That way your solar setup can be used for other stuff... You'll need battery storage (obviously).

 

[theoldwizard1]

Low volume pump into an elevated tank is the way to go. Just make sure you have enough elevation and a large enough tank !

Check out Red Poppy Ranch on YouTube. This is what he does. Even though he had a huge tank, he installed a second one because snow and clouds would reduce his volume to the point the family ran out of water.

 

[MTY]

I

I'm in the planning stages of developing a SW Washington off-grid property into a future home site over the next 5 years. The property will be on solar, well, septic and propane and I'd like to get the well drilled next Spring. The factor driving off-grid decision is that its about $40k to bring power down the road plus the monthly fee and it appears a full solar setup with backup generator is about $35k. In my opinion battery prices will drop as tech advances. The more research I do on water systems the more uncertain I am about which route to go. I'm looking at 2 options.

1. Standard 240v pump with a pressure tank. The benefit is it's a common system and is in line with what future buyers would expect to see. The short term con seems to be that I'll need to get a generator if I want water before the solar system is installed. Longer term its one more high draw device on the system.

2. Use a solar pump to fill a tank then gravity feed for pressure. I have the elevation needed to get the correct house pressure and am intrigued by these systems: https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/offgrid/ This method cuts batteries out of the system, allows a reserve of water for overcast times, could probably be powered off the generator in a pinch and seems pretty straightforward to getting up and running. There's just something I dont like about having a big reservoir of water sitting in a black tank. I know it shouldn't grow mold but it just seems like it would need to get cleaned occasionally (or frequently).

Has anyone been through this before? What did you do and what would you do differently?

I had many of the same thoughts about the monthly power bill, solar well pumps and storage about 3 years ago. I already had power to the property, but only spring water.

I had a well drilled. I went with an 8" casing as you can redrill through it if need be. You cannot do this with a 6' casing.

As a kid, we trucked in water, and a friend had a windmill. I thought of a windmill, but once the hole was drilled and water was at 520' I nixed that idea.

The more I looked at solar, the less appealing it was. Instead, I placed a 1.5 horse pump, a 2100 gallon cistern on the hill above the house, and insulated the house very well.

I do not use the well water for anything outside. The pump kicks on about ever month to month and a half.

The monthly fee to be hooked up to power is $30 give or take a dollar or two. The last year's power bills ran from the high 30's to $122 during the winter. This is with electric heat with a heat pump and strips. I have a propane stove in the living room on a thermostat as it will run without power if the line goes out. I probably used 100 gallons of propane over the winter just watching the fire. I leave the pilot lit and the propane thermostat set at 50*.

The long and short of it is that It would take a long time to pay for solar when electric is so inexpensive monthly. And like another poster stated, future buyers would prefer a standard setup.

My research 3 years ago showed PV arrays started degrading upon installation, so that is an ongoing expense.

 

[mechanix311]

Lots of great replies in this thread. My personal experience says that you need to think of future buyers when you go to sell. Finance companies likely will not finance without grid tied power which will cut down your pool of buyers. Just something to think about

 

[Bretny]

So your planing on "saving" $5k by not bringing in grid power and this is going to be your full time home? Buddy bring in grid power. At the end of the day you will save nothing.

We have a offgrid camp and our electrical needs are next to nothing and the closest power pole is about 1mi away..this is the only reason why I wont bring in grid power.

 

[FlaGman]

If you are even thinking about thinking about resale you should tie to grid.

 

[manwithtools]

IMHO, I think generac is relatively new to the solar game. They are great for generators and transfer switches, but I believe they've "bought" technology to get them into solar. Before you buy what they are selling, seek some customer feedback. Their power monitoring system (PWRview) is an absolute beta (at best) - yet they're selling it as a completed product... At least the app side is *very* beta, the hardware may be ok. Their battery technology was acquired too.

Doing solar + generator, I'd probably seek options that have been in the market for longer or make sure consumer feedback on this new stuff is good.

good to know about Generac. On the general timeline, if I went the solar well pump route that would be in the Spring but I'd hold off as long as possible on the build before buying solar components and generator for the house. That should give enough time for Generac's solar generator to be tested in the market. It's good advice in general though to not always adopt the newest/untested tech.

I have the Generac inverters / storage system, 34Kwh of battery storage fed by 8.2Kw of solar panels. Generac did in fact buy the inverter / power optimizer and battery company Pika Energy - around since 2010. The system uses cells from Panasonic and works quite well. I've had my system in operation since early March and it's doing great, allowing the house to operate completely from battery power during our peak billing hours from 4-9 PM. The rest of the time the batteries are in standby incase the grid goes down. The batteries typically recharge from 30-35% to 100% by 12:00 each day. Remember my location however, sunny Southern CA, although many mornings we are cloud covered until 9:30 - 10:00 AM. Total installed cost was ~ $60k. The high cost of power here during peak TOD billing periods will allow the system to have a reasonable payback period. Also, the batteries on my system were free due to a special state program, so the payback for me is only the panel and install cost of around $28k

The computer app is pretty good, the phone app is decent but good give more different views on the data if I was to identify any short coming. The most important aspect of this system is that able to generate solar power if the grid goes down - which it will here - when the power company proactively shuts us off when fire risk is very high.

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks for the direct feedback...
Do you kn

I have the Generac inverters / storage system, 34Kwh of battery storage fed by 8.2Kw of solar panels. Generac did in fact buy the inverter / power optimizer and battery company Pika Energy - around since 2010. The system uses cells from Panasonic and works quite well. I've had my system in operation since early March and it's doing great, allowing the house to operate completely from battery power during our peak billing hours from 4-9 PM. The rest of the time the batteries are in standby incase the grid goes down. The batteries typically recharge from 30-35% to 100% by 12:00 each day. Remember my location however, sunny Southern CA, although many mornings we are cloud covered until 9:30 - 10:00 AM. Total installed cost was ~ $60k.

Thanks for the feedback on this. Do you know if they offer a way to integrate a generator into that mix? I'm using their ATS (which is great) and a 20kw generator, but had to locate solar "upstream" of the generator - which isn't optimal in the event of a power failure.

 

[dcg9381]

Lots of great replies in this thread. My personal experience says that you need to think of future buyers when you go to sell. Finance companies likely will not finance without grid tied power which will cut down your pool of buyers. Just something to think about

I agree with this.. And for $5k to bring in power (I assume this isn't the cost of installing your own meter, etc) - I'd do that also. I'd especially do it if you get any sort of energy credit or net metering.

On financing - I share that concern. We're on "water collection" (no well or local water utility) - for us to get financed, we had to be able to reference other homes in the area that were doing the same thing. Luckily there were 4 within 1/2 mile radius.

 

[manwithtools]

Thanks for the direct feedback...


Thanks for the feedback on this. Do you know if they offer a way to integrate a generator into that mix? I'm using their ATS (which is great) and a 20kw generator, but had to locate solar "upstream" of the generator - which isn't optimal in the event of a power failure.

Not at this time, but I heard they are working on that feature.

 

[NUTTSGT]

This is the kit I'm looking at for the well setup. https://shop.rpssolarpumps.com/coll...series-d-deep-well-solar-pump-kits-over-300ft

for the house I'm too far out to really give it too much thought. I have been following the Wild Wonderfull Off-Grid couple on youtube over the past few years and do like the Schneider components and I have Victron components on my RV so I'd like to stick with a recognizable brand name.

I was going to link them but you already seem to know about them and their journey. They're not experts, granted Josh is an electrician, but they talk about the reality of it all and mistakes they've made.

 

[Pntyrmvr]

Interestingly no one has mentioned wind generators for a site that can be cloudy and does have short winter daylight hours. And they run all night.

 

[Mr onetwo]

not sure what this has to do with water, but I like the concept

do some research on "bubble pumps"
they have no moving parts down in the hole and could be solar powered

 

[sjvicker]

Interestingly no one has mentioned wind generators for a site that can be cloudy and does have short winter daylight hours. And they run all night.

I did some googling on this and here's what's keeping me away from it.

1. I'm surrounded by Doug Fir to the East, West and North that seem close enough that they may block some of the wind.
2. The weather is surprisingly mild. Yes in the PNW but I'm far enough South in WA that it doesn't get nearly as many rainy and cloudy days as Seattle. It's more comparable to Portland in that it doesn't have a mountain range to the West to affect the weather.
3. Setting up the tower seems daunting and that fairly large footings (guesstimate) would be required. Not a deal breaker by any means, just a few more steps to getting up and running
4. If I change my mind I can't easily re-purpose it. If I start with one of the RPS solar setups and decide down the road to use a normal 240v pump setup I can reuse the panels (and maybe the controller and pump?) for another project.