Oil Based Paint

[mayday0017]

Can someone school me on oil based paint? I am in the middle of a big remodel and need to repaint all of the door frames and window trim inside the house. All the other trim is being replaced and I'm spraying it outside. When I paint with oil based paint I end up having to put on a really thick coat to get brush marks to smooth out before it drys. I am very messy with oil based paints, and over all hate it....

How much of this is the nature of oil based paints and is why everyone hates them, and how much of it is my lack of skill?

I have tried Foam brush, cheap brush, Purdy Oil Based brush, Purdy "All paint" brush. So far the Purdy "All Paint" brush works the best.

And I guess while we are on the topic I hate cleaning oil based brushes there has to be a better way.... Tips/Tricks?

 

[slip knot]

We've used an additive (Japan drier) IIRC. allowed a lot more wet time for the brush strokes to level out. Go talk with a professional paint supplier and they can fix you up.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

I don't know why you think you must use oil based paint anymore? Frankly you don't. Prime new woodwork with a quality primer - Zinsser, Bullseye, etc. Give it a very light sand, wipe with a tack rag and then topcoat with a quality name brand latex.

Tips & Tricks
That said, if you're set on using oil base I can help a bit. I sold paints for about 6-1/2 years. Use a Purdy natural bristle brush only. Never use a nylon or other synthetic bristle brush on oil based paint. Add a BIT of Penetrol to the paint - follow manufacturer's recommendations. This will make the paint flow out much more nicely than without it. And finally: paint dry-to-wet. This means load your brush and start where there is no paint and paint BACK into the prior paint you put down before. Do NOT go back and rebrush all your work. If you've added Penetrol properly it'll flow out very smoothly. This minimizes tearing the initial film the paint sets and thereby minimizes brush strokes. Any good oil base paint SHOULD flow out better than any latex; but I've been out of the business a long time and in that time formulations have changed to meet air quality requirements.

 

[mayday0017]

I don't know why you think you must use oil based paint anymore? Frankly you don't. Prime new woodwork with a quality primer - Zinsser, Bullseye, etc. Give it a very light sand, wipe with a tack rag and then topcoat with a quality name brand latex.

......

Dan, thanks for the tips! Basically I'm told the Oil Based drys hard and is more durable then latex. I also picked it because everything has already been painted with oil based so to come back with latex now is risky or at minimum a chore since latex doesn't stick to oil based. At this point I have sprayed about 700ft of baseboard and about 10 doors and they look excellent. I just really hate painting oil based paint with a brush.

I need to try one of the additives for oil and see if that does the trick. Can I use the same paint thinner I use when spraying?

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

Can I use the same paint thinner I use when spraying?

You're absolutely right that latex does not want to stick to oil base.

If you were using mineral spirits or regualr paint thinner, you should be fine. BUT, I'd NOT thin the paint for brushing it. I'd use the Penetrol, but NOT thin it. Best of luck. How about some pictures? Maybe Before and Afters?

 

[cwlo]

The oil based paint will tend to yellow over time, versus the latex which will not. Another tip....Benjamin Moore now sells a water based alkyd paint...Water based Impervo, and Advanced. They both harden like an oil based paint which is ideal for trim. Really nice technology.

Chris

 

[rippered]

And I guess while we are on the topic I hate cleaning oil based brushes there has to be a better way.... Tips/Tricks?

When I was house painter we used the 3 bucket system to clean oil base roller sleeves and brushes. The first bucket is your dirtiest and last is your cleanest. Used a brush spinner and wire brush. I like to use a corona semi oval 3 inch chinex brush.

 

[PCO6]

And I guess while we are on the topic I hate cleaning oil based brushes there has to be a better way.... Tips/Tricks?

I haven't tried this for "house" paint but in the garage I store the brushes I use for oil based paint in small metal can with clean unused engine oil in it. When I need a brush I wash the oil off in my parts washer which uses varsol (mineral spirits) as a cleaning agent. When I'm finished painting I wash the brush again using my parts washer and put it back in the metal can. I use a small can (beans, peas, etc.) and fill it about one third full with oil ... just enough to submerse the bristles. This method allows me to keep the brushes so clean and supple that I have brushes that I have used for years and they are still in perfect condition.

When a freind told about this method about 30 years ago I thought he was nuts. Try it ... you will be VERY surprised at how well it works.

 

[signcrafter]

Dan gave some good advice. Penetrol is great. Sherwin Williams turned me onto the product when doing some kitchen cabinets and I had brush marks no matter what I tried. If I remember right it's a little expensive but it's worth every penny and a little bit goes a long way.

For spraying I always thin the paint a little bit, oil base I thin with paint thinner.

For cleaning brushes I use paint thinner. Also pick up a brush comb. They cost a dollar or two and really gets all the paint out from between the bristles.

Also you don't say what brand paint you are using. I know some will disagree with me but I used to just buy what ever paint was on sale at the box stores and then I started going to sherwin williams and a real paint stores paint is a lot better then the box stores. It costs a little more but it covers better. Also sherwin williams has sales about once a month for 30-40% off their paints. It doesn't have to be a sherwin williams either, any paint store will have better paint than a box store. Also they usually know their paints and can give lots of good advice.

 

[mayday0017]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, looks like I might have not known what I bought....

I do only shop at Sherwin Williams for paint, with my discount there I buy professional grade paint (not standard retail) for about the same price as the big box store paint. It is 100x better in my opinion as I did buy paint for a bathroom from box store because Sherwin was closed and man was that a mistake. It took twice the amount of paint and I have problems with leeching I need to fix now....

Anyways, I had asked the kid behind the counter for oilbased extra white trim paint in semi-gloss. Now after looking online I'm not positive that is what I got, unfortunatly I am at work now and can't look at the can. The last can I bought was B34W251 which I believe is oil-based Interior Alkyd Semigloss extra white. The can I think the kid might of given me this go around is B34W08251 not sure what the 08 stands for, I am assuming since this one is a water based Acrylic-Alkyd paint it indicates water based.

The new question is, I know latex shouldn't be put over oil as it won't stick, will water based Acrylic-Alkyd paint stick or will it have problems too?

I need to try and find some time today to go visit a local Sherwin Williams before I go home tonight and start spraying with this new gallon and start doing more door frames inside....

 

[rafe]

I thought(was told) that oil over latex was the probem! I have always used an oil based primer with a latex solid stain top coat on decks with results that have lasted many years? On interior trim oil based top coats over oil based primer are much better looking if one has a good skill level, of course that is just my humble opinion

 

[mayday0017]

I thought(was told) that oil over latex was the probem! I have always used an oil based primer with a latex solid stain top coat on decks with results that have lasted many years? On interior trim oil based top coats over oil based primer are much better looking if one has a good skill level, of course that is just my humble opinion

Nope, that's backwards... you can paint oil over latex but not latex over oil. Very common mistake for people not knowing there are issues with painting latex over oil. I would say 50% or more of people who grab paint with out talking to someone in paint department and plan on doing trim end up grabbing latex. I would go further to say that 50% of those people get super lucky, the other 50% well.... they have a real mess on their hands!

What happens when you paint latex over oil

 

[CoconutPete]

What happens when you paint latex over oil

Hey, those look like my doors!!!

 

[mayday0017]

LOL dang I thought someone had posted some good info I want to make sure my doors don't look like that LOL

 

[The Frisco Kid]

I don't know why you think you must use oil based paint anymore? Frankly you don't. Prime new woodwork with a quality primer - Zinsser, Bullseye, etc. Give it a very light sand, wipe with a tack rag and then topcoat with a quality name brand latex.

Tips & Tricks
That said, if you're set on using oil base I can help a bit. I sold paints for about 6-1/2 years. Use a Purdy natural bristle brush only. Never use a nylon or other synthetic bristle brush on oil based paint. Add a BIT of Penetrol to the paint - follow manufacturer's recommendations. This will make the paint flow out much more nicely than without it. And finally: paint dry-to-wet. This means load your brush and start where there is no paint and paint BACK into the prior paint you put down before. Do NOT go back and rebrush all your work. If you've added Penetrol properly it'll flow out very smoothly. This minimizes tearing the initial film the paint sets and thereby minimizes brush strokes. Any good oil base paint SHOULD flow out better than any latex; but I've been out of the business a long time and in that time formulations have changed to meet air quality requirements.

SOLID advice. My Mom is STUCK to oil based paint, she's used it for years and won't hear about using anything else on trim. That said, all the crown and shelving in her home looks AMAZING, and I've learned a lot helping through the years. Penetrol is the BOMB in proper ratio (less is almost always more!) and the brush strokes just smooth right out... good luck.

 

[Skin]

Bumping this to ask my own oil vs latex question. I have a fairly large wood shed that needs to be re-painted and am on the fence of whether I should go with an oil base, which I believe was there to begin with and stood up very well (10 years, it was dry but kept its color and didn't peel), or switch to latex. Immediate downside to the oil base is that I have to special order it and its a VOC compliant formula so it may not actually be any better than a modern latex.


The brand in question im using is Cabot solid stains. Any opinions one way or the other?

 

[7th Kahuna]

As you are in Boston, anything I have experience with here in California is all but irrelevant. Circa 1985, when I was learning to paint, I wouldn't have used anything but oil. It was so much easier to work with than the water based paints. In the years since, water based has improved and oil based has lost it's luster, so to speak. The new formulations, at least here, just aren't the same. I have never used Cabot but I have also never heard anything bad about it. For me, the question today is not so much oil versus water but rather one of quality. Buy a good quality product and I expect you will be fine. Hopefully others with more direct experience will chime in. Good Luck.

 

[rippered]

Nope, that's backwards... you can paint oil over latex but not latex over oil. Very common mistake for people not knowing there are issues with painting latex over oil. I would say 50% or more of people who grab paint with out talking to someone in paint department and plan on doing trim end up grabbing latex. I would go further to say that 50% of those people get super lucky, the other 50% well.... they have a real mess on their hands!

What happens when you paint latex over oil

That's not because someone put latex over oil. It's from improper preparation. If you want to put latex over oil you have to clean and sand it, to give it a rough surface to adhere to.

You don't put oil over latex because it can but not always lift the latex.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

That's not because someone put latex over oil. It's from improper preparation. If you want to put latex over oil you have to clean and sand it, to give it a rough surface to adhere...

I agree however if it were one I'd go ahead and use a quality primer as I stated above, give a very light sand and THEN paint with a good latex.

Incidentally, since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread til now, there is a companion product to Penetrol, it's called Floetrol. I've used it and I'm not as overly impressed with it as I am with Penetrol for oil based paint but it IS a help over nicely primed and sanded trim.

 

[BillK]

Interesting thread. I grew up using oil based paint and I hate brushing latex. Cant seem to get a nice smooth finish no matter what I do. Seems like the only thing that works great for me on White trim is oil.

I didn't read all of the threads, but the right brush makes a biiiig different. You get what you pay for and definitely need a natural bristle for oil.

 

[jbs]

Bumping this to ask my own oil vs latex question. I have a fairly large wood shed that needs to be re-painted and am on the fence of whether I should go with an oil base, which I believe was there to begin with and stood up very well (10 years, it was dry but kept its color and didn't peel), or switch to latex. Immediate downside to the oil base is that I have to special order it and its a VOC compliant formula so it may not actually be any better than a modern latex.


The brand in question im using is Cabot solid stains. Any opinions one way or the other?

I used oil-based Cabot on my shop, and latex on the shed right next to it (same color- Baked Brick IIRC). Both are fine, but the latex holds it's color better. It is a little unfair comparison b/c the latex is newer, but it clearly has not faded as much. The oil-based is more faded on the sunny (south and west) sides.

Given the easier cleanup with latex, I'd go with it if I had it to do over again.

 

[Skin]

I used oil-based Cabot on my shop, and latex on the shed right next to it (same color- Baked Brick IIRC). Both are fine, but the latex holds it's color better. It is a little unfair comparison b/c the latex is newer, but it clearly has not faded as much. The oil-based is more faded on the sunny (south and west) sides.

Given the easier cleanup with latex, I'd go with it if I had it to do over again.

Both coats seem equally durable? My primary concern is that its going to go a couple seasons then start lifting and peeling.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

Interesting thread. I grew up using oil based paint and I hate brushing latex. Cant seem to get a nice smooth finish no matter what I do. Seems like the only thing that works great for me on White trim is oil.

I didn't read all of the threads, but the right brush makes a biiiig different. You get what you pay for and definitely need a natural bristle for oil.

Bill, you're right- natural bristle for oil based paints and synthetic bristles for latex. Natural bristles "wick" the water out of the paint, or so the logic goes.

With latex you CAN get much smoother final film IF you use Floetrol AND you use the brushing from "dry-to-wet" method described above. It's not intuitive, you've got to teach yourself to do it but the final results speak for themselves. Not like oil based with Penetrol, but much improved over latex straight out of the can with back and forth brushing- ugh!

 

[Garage Coffee Roaster]

just painted a porch with cabot stain...had to thin it down about 10% to allow it to flow out enough to use it.

Here in Massachusetts, the VOC requirements are strict, and cabot had to remove solvent to comply with the standards.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Bumping this to ask my own oil vs latex question. I have a fairly large wood shed that needs to be re-painted ...
.
.
.
The brand in question im using is Cabot solid stains. Any opinions one way or the other?

First stain, even solid color stain, is NOT paint ! Paint is a coating that adheres to the surface. Stain sinks into the wood.

This is one case where an oil base may be better than latex, if is has some preservatives (boiled linseed or tung oil) add to the oil. Thinning and adding boiled linseed oil is a good idea, but you will likely require 2 coats.

 

[Norcal]

I still don't think latex is as durable as a oil based finish & unless sprayed latex is not the smooth glassy finish like oil is, that being said, here in California the nature Nazi's rule so oil is hard to come by.

 

[jbs]

Both coats seem equally durable? My primary concern is that its going to go a couple seasons then start lifting and peeling.

Yes, both are holding up great other than the bit of fade in the oil-based. They are 3-4 years old and shouldn't need a new coat any time soon.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I still don't think latex is as durable as a oil based finish & unless sprayed latex is not the smooth glassy finish like oil is, ...

Probably true, but not every paint job requires a super smooth, glassy finish.

If you are painting metal outdoor equipment, alkyd (oil) enamel with hardener is the way to go. Smooth finish, even with a brush, and great durability.

 

[oldjamesy]

I agree however if it were one I'd go ahead and use a quality primer as I stated above, give a very light sand and THEN paint with a good latex.

Incidentally, since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread til now, there is a companion product to Penetrol, it's called Floetrol. I've used it and I'm not as overly impressed with it as I am with Penetrol for oil based paint but it IS a help over nicely primed and sanded trim.

Hello Dan . I just learned more about oil based in the last five minutes of reading Your posts than I learned from 20 years worth of mistakes.

In regards to Rustoleum and similar products:

Would Penetrol be used in addition to Japan dryer or instead of ?

Do You reccomend an additive for oil based primers as well ?

Thanks .

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do You recommend an additive for oil based primers as well ?

For use on wood, linseed oil is a great wood preservative.

For clear "varnish" marine finishes, it is common to mix boiled linseed oil/mineral spirits/oil based varnish in a ratio of 1/2/1. Drying time can be as long as 72 hours before you apply the finish coat.