oil burner help

[Kaizen]

This is driving me crazy. Before i start tossing parts at this can you see if i'm missing anything. I went through this myself a week ago and then had my pro out. He did not see anything either.
This is a becket oil burner about 15 years old. Keeps tripping out after non start every 12-18 hours. When i hit the reset it fires right up. So this is happening after it runs for 12 hours or so.
- Got a new plastic oil tank this summer. So brand new oil, lines, filter, tank.
- screwdriver test at the spark coils and its at least 3/4.
- New electrodes last year. No signs of cracked porcelain.
-Stuck a new nozzle in it when this all happened. No change in behaviour.
- Electrodes spaced fine and verified by tech
- Tank is at 1/4 with a 10 foot overhead line. Tech says pump has plenty power to **** that.
I figured it might be the controller so i got a new one with the electronic readout. shows the fire eye/cad cell at 240 ohms resistance which is fine.
Its getting fuel fine and motor sounds good.
Any ideas? Figure i'd put a new igniter in first then if not fixed replace the electrodes? The new display should show where in the process it failed but from what i can see it just says failed ignition.

 

[75gmck25]

Haved you cleaned the flame sensor and/or verified that its working? On my old oil burner it fired up the system initially when the thermostat called for heat, but if the flame sensor was dirty it assumed a no-flame condition and shut the oil flow down.

Bruce

 

[Kaizen]

Haved you cleaned the flame sensor and/or verified that its working? On my old oil burner it fired up the system initially when the thermostat called for heat, but if the flame sensor was dirty it assumed a no-flame condition and shut the oil flow down.

Bruce

yes that was fine and with this new controller it guarantees it as it shows the resistance as it runs. very steady

 

[Bretny]

Is your chimney clean and clear? All passages in the boiler/furnace clean?
Did you do a smoke test? Google oil burner smoke test if you dont know what it is.

My father had a simular issue years ago and called around to find someone who could bring in a smoke tester. No one had one or would try to explain why its not needed. He ended up buying one himnself and seting up his boiler properly. Its been years since it shut off.

 

[Kaizen]

Is your chimney clean and clear? All passages in the boiler/furnace clean?
Did you do a smoke test? Google oil burner smoke test if you dont know what it is.

My father had a simular issue years ago and called around to find someone who could bring in a smoke tester. No one had one or would try to explain why its not needed. He ended up buying one himnself and seting up his boiler properly. Its been years since it shut off.

yes actually bought one last year and started cleaning mine as well. it is wide open. if it was clogged i'd have smoke backing up. this is more of a starting up issue. just want whatever it is to fail completely so i can fix the damn thing

 

[dogdog]

Seems like you have checked everything that is possible... Fuel/spark / flame sensor...

I would double check the flame sensor manually with an ohm meter and a flashlight... just to get rid of the doubts.. flame sensor is one of the mechanism that would trigger a lockout... you can search "lockout" in your beckett manual... it's there.

if you have checked and rule out the electrodes... and there are no tattle tale sign of eroding / burned electrodes ... probably it is not. especially if it started right up... after a reset.

As far as best guest after you have eliminate all the possibilities... ?

is the new tank vented properly ? Not my old oil tank but my parent's fairly new ones have two pipes, one fill and one vent. that goes out to the side of the building. Might be starving fuel from the vacuum created after 18 hours of running... who runs their burner 18 hours ?dunno... if you do that could be the possibility... Also those lead filled fire-o-matic vavles are confusing , I always close it when I thought I opened it. it's reversed of a normal gated valve.... found that out last weekend on the annual tune up for my parents , well that was a defective valve...

 

[Kaizen]

Seems like you have checked everything that is possible... Fuel/spark / flame sensor...

I would double check the flame sensor manually with an ohm meter and a flashlight... just to get rid of the doubts.. flame sensor is one of the mechanism that would trigger a lockout... you can search "lockout" in your beckett manual... it's there.

if you have checked and rule out the electrodes... and there are no tattle tale sign of eroding / burned electrodes ... probably it is not. especially if it started right up... after a reset.

As far as best guest after you have eliminate all the possibilities... ?

is the new tank vented properly ? Not my old oil tank but my parent's fairly new ones have two pipes, one fill and one vent. that goes out to the side of the building. Might be starving fuel from the vacuum created after 18 hours of running... who runs their burner 18 hours ?dunno... if you do that could be the possibility... Also those lead filled fire-o-matic vavles are confusing , I always close it when I thought I opened it. it's reversed of a normal gated valve.... found that out last weekend on the annual tune up for my parents , well that was a defective valve...

I did unscrew the fill cap to make sure no vacuum. first thing i thought but no difference.
its running as needed for 18 hours. so longest burn time when cold at first would show that issue if it was fuel delivery issue.
I'll double check the ohms to make sure the new controller is reading the right number.
Wonder if the electrodes could have a crack in the metal and not the ceramic? I'm going to go get the electrodes, igniter, and cad cell at lunch and stick them in. tired of dealing with this.

 

[Caddybill]

test the burner motor.
Split Phase--2-4 ohms across the incoming power leads. If resistance is up around 7-10 ohms, probably a bad start switch. Pull up on shaft, if resistance drops, replace motor.
PSC motor.
1. Disconnect capacitor from terminals.
2. Connect one meter lead to incoming power, one to each capacitor lead, one at a time-Note readings. You should read between 3-6 ohms & 9-18 ohms.
3. Connect one meter lead to the other incoming power lead, and one to each capacitor lead, one at a time-Note readings. You should read <1 ohm & 15-25 ohms.

 

[dogdog]

I did unscrew the fill cap to make sure no vacuum. first thing i thought but no difference.
its running as needed for 18 hours. so longest burn time when cold at first would show that issue if it was fuel delivery issue.
I'll double check the ohms to make sure the new controller is reading the right number.
Wonder if the electrodes could have a crack in the metal and not the ceramic? I'm going to go get the electrodes, igniter, and cad cell at lunch and stick them in. tired of dealing with this.

crack ceramic usually don't matter much.. since they are a fair distance away from each other... unless you have a really dirty holder that have provided a conductive path for these high voltages... it's usually the tip eroded beyond adjustable that the slightest overheat would have caused the gap to change... it took me two years and a set of electrode to learn that one ....

I recently (two years ago) got one of those plastic electrode gap adjusters for my carline ez1... ( very similar to the beckett afg , but different) been happy with it... I used to do it with a ruler and my eyeballs... some times I get interment flames.. But you have that tech checked out right, so might not be the issue...

Part of the maintenance is to ensure no mechanical vibration providing shady contact between the electrodes and the igniter modules ( aka HV transformer in my case).... I bend those contacts a little to make sure it makes positive contact with the electrodes... and also clean the surface to ensure no carbon conductive path for the high voltages to jump...

 

[gmcgeo]

so on beckett 15 years old i assume this is a transformer on there not module? anyway when testing the coil if you wait a bit and let the coil get hot when doing the screwdriver test across the spark you will see the spark go from blue to yellow in about a 2 min span if that does the coil is cracked inside then it will decrease the amount of current and shut it down. that's one possibility. other than that could be anything

 

[Kaizen]

test the burner motor.
Split Phase--2-4 ohms across the incoming power leads. If resistance is up around 7-10 ohms, probably a bad start switch. Pull up on shaft, if resistance drops, replace motor.
PSC motor.
1. Disconnect capacitor from terminals.
2. Connect one meter lead to incoming power, one to each capacitor lead, one at a time-Note readings. You should read between 3-6 ohms & 9-18 ohms.
3. Connect one meter lead to the other incoming power lead, and one to each capacitor lead, one at a time-Note readings. You should read <1 ohm & 15-25 ohms.

motor is 110 volt. so shut off power and check resistance between neg and positive?

 

[Kaizen]

crack ceramic usually don't matter much.. since they are a fair distance away from each other... unless you have a really dirty holder that have provided a conductive path for these high voltages... it's usually the tip eroded beyond adjustable that the slightest overheat would have caused the gap to change... it took me two years and a set of electrode to learn that one ....

I recently (two years ago) got one of those plastic electrode gap adjusters for my carline ez1... ( very similar to the beckett afg , but different) been happy with it... I used to do it with a ruler and my eyeballs... some times I get interment flames.. But you have that tech checked out right, so might not be the issue...

Part of the maintenance is to ensure no mechanical vibration providing shady contact between the electrodes and the igniter modules ( aka HV transformer in my case).... I bend those contacts a little to make sure it makes positive contact with the electrodes... and also clean the surface to ensure no carbon conductive path for the high voltages to jump...

thanks. yes i have 2 gauges and tech verified they were set right. actually only dirt on them is from his hands inspecting them lol. i used carb cleaner on the whole head when i replaced the nozzle this year so its very clean. I was wondering if the steel electrode inside the ceramic could have a manufacturing defect and is cracked. worked when i put in last year but maybe slowly eroding. so looks fine but has a flaw

 

[Kaizen]

so on beckett 15 years old i assume this is a transformer on there not module? anyway when testing the coil if you wait a bit and let the coil get hot when doing the screwdriver test across the spark you will see the spark go from blue to yellow in about a 2 min span if that does the coil is cracked inside then it will decrease the amount of current and shut it down. that's one possibility. other than that could be anything

yea first thing i'm sticking in today. i and tech only checked when cold on start up not after it was running for a long time.

 

[dogdog]

thanks. yes i have 2 gauges and tech verified they were set right. actually only dirt on them is from his hands inspecting them lol. i used carb cleaner on the whole head when i replaced the nozzle this year so its very clean. I was wondering if the steel electrode inside the ceramic could have a manufacturing defect and is cracked. worked when i put in last year but maybe slowly eroding. so looks fine but has a flaw

Doubt it, the ceramic is just an insulation, the "steel" I think it's some sort of tungsten... it's about $20 to $30 dependents on who you buy it from.

 

[Jackfre]

With a single overhead line I have solved a lot of fuel delivery issues with a Tigerloop.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

With a single overhead line I have solved a lot of fuel delivery issues with a Tigerloop.

The "new plastic tank last summer" was first thing that stood out in my mind. Check the pickup tube in the tank. Roth was using rubber and had an issue with them collapsing. If that's OK, get a Tigerloop could be aeration causing a loss of fuel pump prime on long runs.

Tommy

 

[Kaizen]

With a single overhead line I have solved a lot of fuel delivery issues with a Tigerloop.

The "new plastic tank last summer" was first thing that stood out in my mind. Check the pickup tube in the tank. Roth was using rubber and had an issue with them collapsing. If that's OK, get a Tigerloop could be aeration causing a loss of fuel pump prime on long runs.

Tommy

i will be pissed if that is what this is. tech who also installed the tank definitely did not think it was supply issue. I've read others in the same circumstance do not have the issue when its a full tank. i'm keeping mine low till its figured out so they can be on the hook for fixing the install if that is it.
but i'd guess this would be showing itself on initial startup when it runs for 20 min to get the house up to temp? if there was a vacuum issue AND i did not open the oil supply wouldn't it stay a problem and not start when i push the reset?

 

[Dkramer]

If it lights right back up after hitting the reset, I doubt you lost the pump prime as others have mentioned. If it is a single pipe system, you would have to re-prime it. On a two pipe, depending how far away the tank is, you may have to hit the reset a couple of times. Is it colder out when it stops working? I have seen units that are running a little lean not light when it is colder, (in the morning) but light when it is warmer (in the afternoon).

 

[Kaizen]

If it lights right back up after hitting the reset, I doubt you lost the pump prime as others have mentioned. If it is a single pipe system, you would have to re-prime it. On a two pipe, depending how far away the tank is, you may have to hit the reset a couple of times. Is it colder out when it stops working? I have seen units that are running a little lean not light when it is colder, (in the morning) but light when it is warmer (in the afternoon).

Wellllll.....put in the new transformer at lunch and it fired up. However it ran only four hours. Tripped again. Went down to reset right after it stopped and it would not fire up. Other times I believe it sat usually overnight. Noticed I was not seeing fuel spray this time when it tried to ignite. So I wanted to rule out the fuel valve. Opened the bleeder screw and heard vacuum release. No oil coming out. Tried to bleed it several times and only dribbles. The bleeder is before the valve right?
Mine is tapped into the same section so not sure how plumbed internally.
The pickup is cast iron half inch pipe as far as I can see.


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[dogdog]

when I first didn't know about that little bleeder screws on the filter housing.. (the smallest 5mm bolt or something 1/4), I used to have to attach a hand held mightyvac onto that bleeder screw on the pump and started to work out my hand till I get sold stream... about 1/2 gallon worth... then it would be fine... but that is a normal thing to do when ever I open he system and lose prime... like changing filter and or some thing funky letting air back into the line...

The bleeder screw for these pumps in this case is just another outlet for the pump.

 

[Kaizen]

when I first didn't know about that little bleeder screws on the filter housing.. (the smallest 5mm bolt or something 1/4), I used to have to attach a hand held mightyvac onto that bleeder screw on the pump and started to work out my hand till I get sold stream... about 1/2 gallon worth... then it would be fine... but that is a normal thing to do when ever I open he system and lose prime... like changing filter and or some thing funky letting air back into the line...

The bleeder screw for these pumps in this case is just another outlet for the pump.

Funny I actually went and got a mighty vac tonight for this. Took longer then I expected. I have a bolt on the filter housing. I can put a bleeder in that? Is it easier then priming at the pump?
Got it going again and have the oil company coming back out to figure out a solution. Thankfully I recorded video of me opening the bleeder and the vacuum


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[Dagny]

At least look at the plastic coupling between the motor and pump. take it apart and inspect the splines .

 

[dogdog]

Funny I actually went and got a mighty vac tonight for this. Took longer then I expected. I have a bolt on the filter housing. I can put a bleeder in that? Is it easier then priming at the pump?
Got it going again and have the oil company coming back out to figure out a solution. Thankfully I recorded video of me opening the bleeder and the vacuum


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yes you bleed at the filter housing when you change filters... just gravity bleed if your filter is like any other "normal" installation which is at the bottom of the tank... for example, I (my parent's place) have the Unifilter Model 77B... it had three bolts... one 9/16 top, one 5/8 bottom ( I think, its pretty big bolt... ) that holds the housing... there is another "little" bolt on the side on top of that housing size 1/4 or smaller... (small compare to the other two.)
That is for bleeding when you change oil filter.

normally what I do is...

1) shut off the fire-o-matic valve to the filter from the tank
2) shut off the fire-o-matic valve on the oil line to the pump...
3) place the alumnium pan under the filter, and change filter as normal... little spill etc expected.
4) install the new filter element... the housing and the two bolts, gaskets (one for top bolt and one for bottom and one for the housing.).
5) open the fire-o-matic valve and crack open that small bolt very slowly.. you'll hear the air hissing out as the oil fill the oil filter... (if you happened to open too fast, that bolt comes out, and you panic... you'll deal with some mess and fuzz , don't ask how I found that out the first time ) , Close that bolt after the fuel starts to leak out... hopefully not gushing out... if you opened too much.
6) I then open the fire-o-matic valve at the pump and operate the pump...

This way I don't deal with the needed for a mighty-vac... at most , all I needed is to press the reset few times to draw vacuum... My old way was change filter, and use the mighty vac at the bleeder valve at the pump....

Again Not there can't say what your problem is, just a guess but if you have a vacuum in the line I would look into blockage some how in the line or a 1/2 opened fire-o-matic valve or defective one...... didn't you say you have a new line too?


for example this housing... you'll see the silver bolt for the housing... next to it on the left side ( when you are viewing the pic) there is a blue small bolt hex... that is the bleeder for the housing. A filter kit usually comes with a small gasket.. that would fit that screw/bolt... and of cause you change it when the fuel is shut off and filter is out ....

 

[Kaizen]

Thanks Dogdog.

Had them back out today and showed him the vacuum video that i got opening the bleeder screw. so now he says i need to put in a tiger loop. Previously they were sure it would not need something like that. shame on me for listening to a pro over GJ!!! I would have had it done and not spent 200 bucks on parts. Its literally a ten foot line with a 6 foot head.
Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Make sure you get the version of the Tigerloop with the spin-on fuel filter.

Tommy

 

[Kaizen]

Make sure you get the version of the Tigerloop with the spin-on fuel filter.

Tommy

So I would have two filters on the system?


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[Jackfre]

Not sure I am following your description correctly, but when you open the bleed screw on the pump, you should get oil if the line is tight and it has been bled and primed after the service was done. Single overhead lines are a pitn. That is not to say there aren't a lot of them working correctly, but if there is a bad flare somewhere...
Your installer is certain that it is not a fuel delivery issue. I'd say maybe he should come up with the solution given all you have done so far. I am sure you agree that it gets tedious throwing parts at it.
I was on the NFPA 31 Committee when Roth came n for approval. We hurried them right through. They are a good investment.

 

[Kaizen]

Not sure I am following your description correctly, but when you open the bleed screw on the pump, you should get oil if the line is tight and it has been bled and primed after the service was done. Single overhead lines are a pitn. That is not to say there aren't a lot of them working correctly, but if there is a bad flare somewhere...
Your installer is certain that it is not a fuel delivery issue. I'd say maybe he should come up with the solution given all you have done so far. I am sure you agree that it gets tedious throwing parts at it.
I was on the NFPA 31 Committee when Roth came n for approval. We hurried them right through. They are a good investment.

Right.......i had all vacuum. Its a single line from the inlet to the filter on the tank. Not sure what its called. like a plastic exterior with metal inside. the line has no fittings on its ends. Well looks like its slipped on a piece of pipe that is then attached to the compression. i listened at the fittings best i could while it was running and didn't hear any noises.
His solution was putting in the tiger loop. But they didn't have any in stock and he knows i can do it so he said i can give it a shot and call him if a problem and he'd come on his time.
I've read several of these exact problems with this tank and this piping overhead. seems to happen when tank is low but not when its high. who the hell knows. its 23 degrees out and its running so praying it goes for awhile. Thinking tomorrow i'm going to bleed it when running a few times to see if i can get whatever air is building up in the head for whatever reason. Going to call the plumbing supply tomorrow and see how much of a markup theirs is if they sell it.

 

[willhollin]

Is there no non-return valve at the bottom of the tank where it draws fuel from?

What size is your supply pipe?

You could always run a two pipe system with a return line back to the tank rather than a Tigerloop, but whatever you do, a non-return valve at the end of the supply pipe is imperative.

 

[Kaizen]

Is there no non-return valve at the bottom of the tank where it draws fuel from?

What size is your supply pipe?

You could always run a two pipe system with a return line back to the tank rather than a Tigerloop, but whatever you do, a non-return valve at the end of the supply pipe is imperative.

Supply looks half inch. The pipe is just open at the bottom of the tank. Yes I could run the two pipe as well. Tiger loop seems easier although more expensive


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[brewchief]

Unless there is a reason that it can't be done I would switch it over to a two pipe system.

The company I work for does a fair amount of oil service yet in 20 plus years I haven't seen a tigerloop on a single system, we also don't use those roth tanks here. Standard steel oval tank if it's in a basement or a 500 gallon skid tank if above ground outside.

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[LS6 Tommy]

Unless there is a reason that it can't be done I would switch it over to a two pipe system.

The company I work for does a fair amount of oil service yet in 20 plus years I haven't seen a tigerloop on a single system, we also don't use those roth tanks here. Standard steel oval tank if it's in a basement or a 500 gallon skid tank if above ground outside.

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Tigerloops aren't a "must have" on everything here, either, but they're for more than just fixing "problems". They increase efficiency, too.

You can't use tanks like that around here anymore. They have to have 100% secondary containment in case of a leak. Roth tanks cover all those requirements without the crazy cost of a containment dam or barrier bases.

Tommy

 

[Jackfre]

Kaizen, you said "compression" fitting. Compression fittings on oil lines are a no-no and could well be the source of the air. You need flare fittings.

 

[brewchief]

Kaizen, you said "compression" fitting. Compression fittings on oil lines are a no-no and could well be the source of the air. You need flare fittings.

Agreed with no compression fittings with one exception, a duplex bushing going into the top of a tank uses a compression fitting. I don't know if the roth tanks use a duplex bushing but if they do a dab of pipe dope can help provide a better seal, it shouldn't need it but who knows where some of the fittings are sourced from now days.

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[willhollin]

A non return valve at the bottom would be my first job.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

So I would have two filters on the system?


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No, the spin on filter replaces the old can and felt setup.

Tommy

 

[Kaizen]

No, the spin on filter replaces the old can and felt setup.



Tommy

I have a spin in at the tank. Any downside to having two spin on filters?


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[Kaizen]

Agreed with no compression fittings with one exception, a duplex bushing going into the top of a tank uses a compression fitting. I don't know if the roth tanks use a duplex bushing but if they do a dab of pipe dope can help provide a better seal, it shouldn't need it but who knows where some of the fittings are sourced from now days.

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Here is the tube and the two connections. Acorn nut. Maybe I’m calling it the wrong thing. Does this tube use an expander tool?






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[LS6 Tommy]

I have a spin in at the tank. Any downside to having two spin on filters?


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Not if they're both clean. It might make it harder for the pump to stay primed, but since I've never run into a system with two filters, I can't say for sure. The filter usually is the last thing before the burner pump, but it's not always done that way 100% of the time. Tigerloops come without a filter, too.

Tommy

 

[brewchief]

Here is the tube and the two connections. Acorn nut. Maybe I’m calling it the wrong thing. Does this tube use an expander tool?






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Those are proper flare fittings.

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