Oil burner mystery

[Kaizen]

Beckett oil burner in Weil McLain boiler. Has a tiger loop as it’s an overhead line and was loosing suction under half tank. When doing that last year I replaced ignition control box and transformer. Been great all year.
Just started to hiccup once. Loses flame for a second then ignites and finishes run.
Just replaced nozzle, filter at tank, and electrodes. Does it less often but problem still there. Ideas? Pump? Motor sounds fine.


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[dogdog]

maybe your suction line is set incorrectly ?

Never had a tiger loop when I had the tank sludge problem... the installer put in an over head line and drop it about 12" above the tank or maybe not sure, Just told me never to let it run down to 1/4... for what ever reason... the oil refill is still 250 gallon every time... glad I got rid of that in my home and convert to gas.

My parent's place still on oil only, single line feed, might have check into this tigerloop thing.

 

[Kaizen]

I’d sell a kidney for natural gas. I needed a new tank so 2 years ago I had them put in the fancy square plastic tank which uses an overhead line. Then when tank was below half it would get air in the line and stop working. Bleeding out an overhead line is tough. Had them back a few times and they suggested the tiger loop. Seemed like they were just throwing parts at it. Tiger loop is not cheap. But does deairate the oil nicely.
This has to be a supply problem. Seems to do it after a minute or so of running like it’s starving. I mean if it runs great for a minute everything else must be working. Ordered a new pump. I’m down to 1/4 tank maybe it just can never be this low. Argh always something


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[dogdog]

you can try to Tee a vacuum gauge onto the supply line and see if you have suction/vacuum when it fails.. I remember one there the installer put in... 3/8 galvanized and a reducer for the vacuum gauge on the Tee...

 

[Dagny]

check the coupling between the motor and pump.

 

[Kaizen]

check the coupling between the motor and pump.

I had thought of this. Ever been in there. If it was locked up or motor was free spinning that is what I would look at. But every cycle just once ? Why would the motor or coupling or pump do that?


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[Kaizen]

you can try to Tee a vacuum gauge onto the supply line and see if you have suction/vacuum when it fails.. I remember one there the installer put in... 3/8 galvanized and a reducer for the vacuum gauge on the Tee...

Can I leave a pressure gauge installed in the pump? Now that I’ve installed the tiger loop maybe a vacuum at the tank?
Ordered a fill tomorrow to see if the problem goes away.


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[Yankeefarmer]

I have a Beckett burner on a Weil McLain boiler I installed about 15 years ago. Typical 275 gallon tank, copper tubing after filter at bottom of tank, rises to basement ceiling, travels about 15 feet to boiler, then drops to burner. When I started it up, I used a hand operated vacuum pump attached to bleed to prime the pump for first fire. Like I said, that was 15 years ago. Oil supplier let us run out once, but delivery driver bled pump as if it was an along-the-floor line (no vacuum) and was successful. That incident was about 3 years ago. No other issues.

I’d be looking for a very small “leak” in your suction line that allows air in. Any connections or rubs above tank oil level?

 

[yeldogt]

Have you had the unit serviced recently ?

I totally get wanting to do this yourself .... have learned the hard way that there is no free lunch. You would have made out getting a clean and service contract if you really needed those parts.

Tiger loops are great and I always added one when I bought a house with oil -- how old is the unit? The older burners seems to keep going even when not running most efficient ... the newer stuff has issues. Are you running a full nozzle or reduced ...

If the unit is not running correctly and making any soot or not flaming correctly -- they will fall off. Is it doing it first thing in the AM .. on cold start? Sometimes they don't fire off first try due to pressure or wrong nozzle.

I'm saying above since you are not hearing anything ... Although -- all of mine would still run prior to the Tiger loop install .... They just made some occasional noise. The tiger also lets the fuel warm if the tank outside

 

[Kaizen]

I have a Beckett burner on a Weil McLain boiler I installed about 15 years ago. Typical 275 gallon tank, copper tubing after filter at bottom of tank, rises to basement ceiling, travels about 15 feet to boiler, then drops to burner. When I started it up, I used a hand operated vacuum pump attached to bleed to prime the pump for first fire. Like I said, that was 15 years ago. Oil supplier let us run out once, but delivery driver bled pump as if it was an along-the-floor line (no vacuum) and was successful. That incident was about 3 years ago. No other issues.

I’d be looking for a very small “leak” in your suction line that allows air in. Any connections or rubs above tank oil level?

When this whole thing started I swore I heard intermittent hiss while unit was running but could never find anything. Tank and all lines are brand new copper with plastic coating. I looked at all connections and felt what it could for issues. They used rubber isolated supports. Maybe the Down pipe in the tank has an issue? How could I apply a vacuum to check? Because it’s not a sealed system I don’t think I can?


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[Kaizen]

Have you had the unit serviced recently ?

I totally get wanting to do this yourself .... have learned the hard way that there is no free lunch. You would have made out getting a clean and service contract if you really needed those parts.

Tiger loops are great and I always added one when I bought a house with oil -- how old is the unit? The older burners seems to keep going even when not running most efficient ... the newer stuff has issues. Are you running a full nozzle or reduced ...

If the unit is not running correctly and making any soot or not flaming correctly -- they will fall off. Is it doing it first thing in the AM .. on cold start? Sometimes they don't fire off first try due to pressure or wrong nozzle.

I'm saying above since you are not hearing anything ... Although -- all of mine would still run prior to the Tiger loop install .... They just made some occasional noise. The tiger also lets the fuel warm if the tank outside

I am servicing this myself. Long story but got royally screwed and just had enough. Normal nozzle. I was actually surprised how clean it was when I took it out.
My current oil company installed the tank and lines. When I had them back last year they wanted to throw parts at it on my dime. Unit is 20 years old and aside from motor and pump everything has been replaced.
This happens on every run. Going to stopwatch it tonight. Betting it happens at the same time approximately because it’s running out of fuel at the same point. Nothing electronic would keep working and keep doing this that I know of.
At this point I’d like to find the issue with gauges and either fix it or have them back. But if I call them now I know they will want to rebuild something without proof that’s the cause.


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[Yankeefarmer]

Do you know what the down pipe in the tank looks like? If it’s copper I’m wondering if it may have developed fatigue cracks just below a bulkhead fitting at the top from turbulence when the tank is filled. The way mine is piped there are no connections above the oil level in the tank, and the line is restrained from vibration.


It’s funny that your oil company did it that way because the guy that serviced my boiler last year told me they don’t do overhead lines because they “cause too many problems.” It seems to me that you get different stories from different guys and companies in that business.

 

[yeldogt]

I am servicing this myself. Long story but got royally screwed and just had enough. Normal nozzle. I was actually surprised how clean it was when I took it out.
My current oil company installed the tank and lines. When I had them back last year they wanted to throw parts at it on my dime. Unit is 20 years old and aside from motor and pump everything has been replaced.
This happens on every run. Going to stopwatch it tonight. Betting it happens at the same time approximately because it’s running out of fuel at the same point. Nothing electronic would keep working and keep doing this that I know of.
At this point I’d like to find the issue with gauges and either fix it or have them back. But if I call them now I know they will want to rebuild something without proof that’s the cause.


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Well .... you threw parts at it ?

They do have specific nozzles -- It could be air ... it could be a lot of things. I had a bad transformer out of the box.

My point with service -- with an old burner .. they can go through oil great then the cost of the service

 

[Kaizen]

Do you know what the down pipe in the tank looks like? If it’s copper I’m wondering if it may have developed fatigue cracks just below a bulkhead fitting at the top from turbulence when the tank is filled. The way mine is piped there are no connections above the oil level in the tank, and the line is restrained from vibration.


It’s funny that your oil company did it that way because the guy that serviced my boiler last year told me they don’t do overhead lines because they “cause too many problems.” It seems to me that you get different stories from different guys and companies in that business.

The tank is new and a double wall Roth tank. Inside layer is plastic so I assume Down pipe is also pvc of some sort.
Because these tanks only have supply out the top it’s common to go overhead.


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[Kaizen]

Well .... you threw parts at it ?

They do have specific nozzles -- It could be air ... it could be a lot of things. I had a bad transformer out of the box.

My point with service -- with an old burner .. they can go through oil great then the cost of the service

Last time I replaced some possible wear issues like the transformer as although it was testing ok it was ten years old. They came out and suggested a new controller. That didn’t help. So I’m at a point now where I need to somehow use vacuum and pressure gauges to see what is happening.
I paid my last company to come in and do annual cleaning. I never heard a vacuum run for as long as I thought it should have. Sure enough four months later it stopped and they cleaned it. Charged me again.
At that point I started maintaining it and aside from this issue it’s a good decision.


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[yeldogt]

Last time I replaced some possible wear issues like the transformer as although it was testing ok it was ten years old. They came out and suggested a new controller. That didn’t help. So I’m at a point now where I need to somehow use vacuum and pressure gauges to see what is happening.
I paid my last company to come in and do annual cleaning. I never heard a vacuum run for as long as I thought it should have. Sure enough four months later it stopped and they cleaned it. Charged me again.
At that point I started maintaining it and aside from this issue it’s a good decision.


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Understand doing things yourself .... I'm with you -- but, sometimes there is no easy answers with the things. They get old and everything becomes marginal -- pressure/ spark/ flame sensor .... odd nozzles. My last house was typical ... it seemed that one or the other would act up .. the one burner used less I was told could go two years ... but it would always uses less oil after it was serviced. So what was I saving. I hated writing the maintenance check for $800 ..but it came with a service contract ... two burners at $300 and the water heater at $200

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Deleted. Please bring back the "Delete" button...

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The tank is new and a double wall Roth tank. Inside layer is plastic so I assume Down pipe is also pvc of some sort.
Because these tanks only have supply out the top it’s common to go overhead.


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Repipe the pickup line in Copper. Roths are really good, but hey have "floating" pickup lines that go bad.

Did mine last spring.

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Repipe the pickup line in Copper. Roths are really good, but hey have "floating" pickup lines that go bad.

Did mine last spring.

Tommy

I missed the "Roth" ... good catch.

Tiger should still make it work .. NO?

 

[Kaizen]

Repipe the pickup line in Copper. Roths are really good, but hey have "floating" pickup lines that go bad.

Did mine last spring.

Tommy

Meaning it’s like on a float with a flexible hose? You say put copper pipe down into tank straight?
If I put a vacuum gauge at the filter will it show anything helpful?


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[Kaizen]

I missed the "Roth" ... good catch.

Tiger should still make it work .. NO?

Not really sure what a tiger loop is supposed to look like running but mine does have constant foam when running.


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[dogdog]

Can I leave a pressure gauge installed in the pump? Now that I’ve installed the tiger loop maybe a vacuum at the tank?
Ordered a fill tomorrow to see if the problem goes away.


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for my "old" setup... the vacuum gauge is installed on the line permanent... I think they sell these vacuum gauges on the hvac supply stores... common items.

something like these. 1/4 NPT is common, the ones for gauges on your instruments are 1/8 NPT...

https://www.grainger.com/product/4FLT5

You mention foam on one of the post... yea something on that tank is not right... it's sucking air some where. Maybe on the joints ? or maybe call the manufacture of that tank? Mine was a 275 or 300 gal tank above ground but in the basement... and the installer tap the line after the original one was blocked by sludge.

 

[dogdog]

Meaning it’s like on a float with a flexible hose? You say put copper pipe down into tank straight?
If I put a vacuum gauge at the filter will it show anything helpful?


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Vacuum gauge is helpful on troubleshooting over head lines... if it is below certain hg it will not **** up the fuel... if it is fluctuating, good indication it is picking up air or leaks some where. Maybe the do something different now, at least back before 2000's they don't have this tiger loop or it was not common., so they used vacuum gauge Tee on the line to trouble shoot.

***The Tee was about 12" from the pump.. on the supply line, not really on the pump or at the pump thing.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Meaning it’s like on a float with a flexible hose? You say put copper pipe down into tank straight?
If I put a vacuum gauge at the filter will it show anything helpful?

It's not truly a "floating" pickup, but Roth uses some kind of a rubber/vinyl/who knows what it's made out of pickup that gets tore up pretty quick from the US heating oil additives. I didn't "do" it myself, my fuel oil company did, so I don't really have any details. We had intermittent lockouts, with the boiler lighting off perfectly and running for weeks at a time between lockouts. Drove me nuts. I'm not real versed on the finer things of residential oil heat. They installed a Tiger Loop, even though I told them it was a "new" problem with a two year old above ground Roth tank. Still pooped once in a while. The company finally sent out a different tech. He redid all the tank top fittings, monitored it for about ten minutes and announced, "Gotta be the OE pickup tube. They go bad". He repiped it with copper and it's been rock solid since.

Tommy

 

[Kaizen]

for my "old" setup... the vacuum gauge is installed on the line permanent... I think they sell these vacuum gauges on the hvac supply stores... common items.

something like these. 1/4 NPT is common, the ones for gauges on your instruments are 1/8 NPT...

https://www.grainger.com/product/4FLT5

You mention foam on one of the post... yea something on that tank is not right... it's sucking air some where. Maybe on the joints ? or maybe call the manufacture of that tank? Mine was a 275 or 300 gal tank above ground but in the basement... and the installer tap the line after the original one was blocked by sludge.

The foam is in the tiger loop. It’s supposed to remove any air but I have considerable air in the flowing oil.
Problem is because it goes from the tank into the device and then does a loop to and from the pump it could be air from anywhere.
This could be as simple as a leaking gasket. I have oil coming tomorrow and I’m betting the problem stops. I will then add a gauge to get some data points. Whatever it is is so small there is no noise or visible fluid leaking.


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[Kaizen]

It's not truly a "floating" pickup, but Roth uses some kind of a rubber/vinyl/who knows what it's made out of pickup that gets tore up pretty quick from the US heating oil additives. I didn't "do" it myself, my fuel oil company did, so I don't really have any details. We had intermittent lockouts, with the boiler lighting off perfectly and running for weeks at a time between lockouts. Drove me nuts. I'm not real versed on the finer things of residential oil heat. They installed a Tiger Loop, even though I told them it was a "new" problem with a two year old above ground Roth tank. Still pooped once in a while. The company finally sent out a different tech. He redid all the tank top fittings, monitored it for about ten minutes and announced, "Gotta be the OE pickup tube. They go bad". He repiped it with copper and it's been rock solid since.

Tommy

Thanks. I will pull it and see what is in there.


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[Dagny]

I had thought of this. Ever been in there. If it was locked up or motor was free spinning that is what I would look at. But every cycle just once ? Why would the motor or coupling or pump do that?


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I wish you would check it they are very inexpensive.

 

[Dagny]

the plastic spline strips out then it slips.

 

[Kaizen]

I wish you would check it they are very inexpensive.

I will. Thank you


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[yeldogt]

There is more than one way to properly pipe a Tiger Loop. I have had them used in one pipe and both twin pipe to the Tank and twin loops to the Tiger.

There are reasons to do things one way or another ....due to tank (inside/outside/ age) and burner size.

You should not be seeing lots of air ... the tiger becomes a mini tank close to the burner. It holds an oil supply and allows any air that may come into the system --- to come out prior to going into the pipe to the pump.

How does the burner want to be piped? do you still have the install manual?


A pick up problem in the Roth could be the issue .... or you could be pumping air back into the tiger if it's a two pipe.

 

[Kaizen]

There is more than one way to properly pipe a Tiger Loop. I have had them used in one pipe and both twin pipe to the Tank and twin loops to the Tiger.

There are reasons to do things one way or another ....due to tank (inside/outside/ age) and burner size.

You should not be seeing lots of air ... the tiger becomes a mini tank close to the burner. It holds an oil supply and allows any air that may come into the system --- to come out prior to going into the pipe to the pump.

How does the burner want to be piped? do you still have the install manual?


A pick up problem in the Roth could be the issue .... or you could be pumping air back into the tiger if it's a two pipe.

The burner normally is a single pipe in. No return.
I got oil and still ha I got an issue. Goi g to go down later and watch it for awhile. I took video so will do another and compare.
If not the tank it is most likely the pump correct? Since it started before the tiger loop installation that’s the only other connection. It is 20 years old so maybe the problem. So damn cold I really don’t want to be messing with it too much.


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[66cj225]

Personally I'd go to the old iron startup procedure and see if it runs right out of a 5 gallon can providing a flooded intake to the pump. There shouldn't be any air on the suction side unless you run out of oil.
Curiosity got to me, so I ambled down to my old Beckett with a Suntec pump. It appears Behler-Young provides the tech info now.
https://www.behler-young.com/UserFiles/Resource/Suntec_A1YA-7912_Manual.pdf
Single pipe vacuum on the 7000 series pumps is 6 in hg.
My pump was a A2VA-7116. I thought its suction was pretty robust from what I expected, for what its worth.

 

[Kaizen]

Went back at it again. Took off, retaped, and retightened all fittings from tank to burner. I don’t know where it was but the air problem looks fixed. Reset electrodes a half mm to be perfect. Running well now without cutting off.
I believe it was pulling in so much air that
The oil being circulated got to such a point that it couldn’t be burned. If you hate bleeding these things get a tiger loop. Didn’t even have to open the bleeder.

Thanks for everyone help. When it warms up I’m going to pull the pump and check the motor. Then I’m getting a four zone mini split!!


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[dogdog]

use those blue sealants next time... works better than tape sometimes.

I don't know what brand I have, I just know it's blue.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Rectors...ru-Blu-Pipe-Thread-Sealant-w-Brush-Top-1-2-Pt

 

[Kaizen]

use those blue sealants next time... works better than tape sometimes.

I don't know what brand I have, I just know it's blue.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Rectors...ru-Blu-Pipe-Thread-Sealant-w-Brush-Top-1-2-Pt

That is what was used the first round. This time I tried tape and so far working. Did use the yellow tape supposedly for this stuff.


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[dogdog]

when that happens.... I burn sage all over the house and chants "gtfo" .... but seriously... didn't have this oil issue but my steam boiler had used 30 gallon water last winter and have been trying to locate the leak. Finally found multiple... ..

 

[Kaizen]

when that happens.... I burn sage all over the house and chants "gtfo" .... but seriously... didn't have this oil issue but my steam boiler had used 30 gallon water last winter and have been trying to locate the leak. Finally found multiple... ..

I grew up with a steam boiler. It was my job to go down and fill it nightly. Honestly I gave a little thanks when it worked out. Really irks me dealing with pain in the rear problems. If your gonna break just break!!!


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[American Locomotive]

I grew up with a steam boiler. It was my job to go down and fill it nightly. Honestly I gave a little thanks when it worked out. Really irks me dealing with pain in the rear problems. If your gonna break just break!!!


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Yikes! The boiler must have had a miserable life. Typically a good steam system should only need water added like once every few weeks if that!

 

[yeldogt]

Went back at it again. Took off, retaped, and retightened all fittings from tank to burner. I don’t know where it was but the air problem looks fixed. Reset electrodes a half mm to be perfect. Running well now without cutting off.
I believe it was pulling in so much air that
The oil being circulated got to such a point that it couldn’t be burned. If you hate bleeding these things get a tiger loop. Didn’t even have to open the bleeder.

Thanks for everyone help. When it warms up I’m going to pull the pump and check the motor. Then I’m getting a four zone mini split!!


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I would leave it alone if working and sounds correct .... properly running some are quite quiet. The tigers are a problem solver .... I never did an oil without one and always had one installed if I bought a place w/o. Also -- I always use compression fittings for the oil lines and set the pipe round before attaching the fitting

 

[Kaizen]

Yikes! The boiler must have had a miserable life. Typically a good steam system should only need water added like once every few weeks if that!

Yes that was for about two winters and when it got replaced they used an auto fill. Knowing what I do now I’m guessing those rads had ten gallons of water in them. Hissed all the time no matter how many air things you replaced


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