To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Oil furnace question

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I have a fairly new oil furnance in my home. Its about 5 years old. I had it cleaned and a new jet (nozzle) installed last year. I came home 2 days ago to a chilly house, I went to the basement and found the reset button in the furnace was tripped (not sure if I called it by the correct name, but it's a red button just above the pump, it has all the wires going into it, when I pressed it, the thing fired right up.) Anyway it tripped 3 more times since then. We have had no power inturuptions, I have plenty of fuel oil.

Any idea what to look at as a possiable cause? I will have to be fixing this myself as I REALLY dont have the $150 the furnace guy will charge me. Thanks guys. Keith
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
1,019
Location
Kannapolis, NC
Did you bleed the fuel line to be sure there is not air in the line? Just asking because I am running into the same problem myself.
 

lametec

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
2,099
Location
Michigan
If it doesn't fire within a few seconds (for whatever reason), it pops the red button.

Cause could be dirty flame sensor, igniter needing adjusting/cleaning, not enough draft, etc. There's really a long list of possible causes.
 

APEowner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
4,166
Location
Sunny, New Mexico
It's not hard to change a nozzle. I change the one in my shop annually. Usually after it starts acting up, but it always ends up being done annually. Wipe the lens on the flame sensor while you're in there.
 

philjafo

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
244
Have your oil furnace serviced annually by a service technician that uses a combustion analyser. Without one of those they are just guessing. With an oil furnace you really need to have it serviced every year, even if it doesn't pop the reset it will be more efficient with a new nozzle and filter and full service every season.
 

Jackfre

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
4,418
Location
N CA
Phil is spot on with his advice on service. You will likely save the cost of the service call in oil savings, especially at $4 per. I used to represent a burner manuf and you simply cannot tell, by eye what clean burn is. We used to fiddle with set-ups in the lab and by hand and eye we were always off. Nozzle, cad cell, filter are all replacement items, but the retention head must be adjusted properly, draft has to be spot on and your HX must be clean. All that must be set up with an oxygen analyzer. Good luck with your furnace. If you do replace the nozzle, make sure it is exactly what was in ther originally.
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
Last year when the furnace guy was here, I bought 3 nozzles off him, so they are sitting in the furnace with the wrench for the bleed screw. It has not shut off since I posted this. (of course) I've never worked on a oil furnace before (I'm a car guy and a half fast handyman) Anyway I picked up a new air filter on the way to work this morning, I'll swap that in, more likely than not I'll have the cash for a service call in the next 2 weeks or so. Faster if the furnace keeps tripping. Thanks guys. Keith
 

philjafo

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
244
I was talking about the oil filter but a good clean air filter isn't going to hurt anything.
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I swapped the fuel filter out the first night it started acting up. I figure a dirty air filter will throw the A/F ratio off, might cause a dirty burn, or at least poor performance. Keith
 

WVBrady

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
1,679
Location
WV
Mine would occasionally get air in the line until I added a return line.
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I pulled the nozzle out of it right after a misfire. The whole assembly was wet with fuel, like a fouled plug in an engine. I checked the ignition coil and it seem fine, the flame sensor checked out good with the DVOM and a flashlight. All I can figure is the fuel is not atomizing enough for the spark to ignite, or its not under enough pressure. I'm hoping it's just a clogged nozzle.

I hit the local hardware store, they had every nozzle in stock, except the one I need, the local Lowes, Home Depot doesn't stock them. So I'm going to leave work early and drive about 40 miles to the closest heating supply place, and pick up new nozzle and pump filter (actually a few of each) and hope like hell that fixes hit. This could not have happened at a worse time, we just shelled out just about all of our cash on Dr bills, tires for her Jeep, I got a speeding ticket and a HUGE emergency vet bill all in the last 2 weeks. GRRRRR Keith
 
Last edited:
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I wonder if I could put my transmission oil psi gauge on the pump? I know its good to 400 PSI, I don't know if I have the right adapter. The only number I have here with me is the number on the cover of the pump. It's a suntec A2VA-7116 rated at 3GPh @ 100-150 PSI and 2 GPH at 150-200PSI both at 3450 RPM

Is it odd that it flows less fuel at the higher PSI? Keith
 

philjafo

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
244
It's seems like more up front, but in the long run getting the service done on the furnace by someone who knows what they are doing will be cheaper. Throwing parts at it replacing stuff that may or may not be the problem is not a good way of fixing anything. With an oil furnace you really should budget for a service every year, that said I'll try to help but some oil furnaces can be really fussy about proper settings. You said you checked the transformer, how did you check it? I ask because the tool to chek those is specific to oil furnaces and very expensive, some people check for spark by putting a screwdriver in between the springs but that really doesn't tell you if the transformer is weak only good or bad.

Now the points, or electrodes, they must be clean and regapped, the insulators must also be cleaned. They tend to build up with carbon and carbon can conduct electricity. For the gap, it changes with the nozzle size and spray pattern, for a general setting that should work for almost all residential set ups though, try 1/16 past the end of the nozzle 1/4 between the points and 1/2 inch above the center of the nozzle.

Take a look inside the tube that the nozzle assembly goes in, there should be a set of fins on the end of the tube, sometimes that piece cracks and falls off. Sometimes it gets plugged up with soot, if its covered in soot clean it.

Don't worry about fuel pressure, if you don't have enough you really should call a professional, messing with fuel pressure when you don't know what your doing will only cause more problems.

Clean the vent pipe and take a good look in the chimney and at the chimney cap on the roof if there is one.

Finelly and most important if there is a lot of fuel in the combustion chamber when it gets going again it can blow smoke and soot out of the front of the furnace. NEVER STAND IN FRONT OF IT WHEN RELIGHTING.

I hope this helps if you have any questions about anything just ask I'll do my best to answer. And as soon as you can afford it get a professional with a combustion analyzer out there it will pay for itself with less headaches warmer nights and less fuel consumption.
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I was only able to test the coil as that is can work. Your right I do not have the correct tools to test it for spark energy.

The points look good to my eye, they are clean, even and show no signs of pitting. I found a little tool at the furnace shop that slides over the nozzle and puts the points in the correct placement. I did find the specs for them last night, I'll check the measurements after I put the new nozzle in tonight.

I did look inside that tube, it was clean and I saw no broken fins.

I have EVERY intention of calling a furnace guy in as soon as I have the $$ I work in commission based sales and Sept is the worst month for us. I will have the cash in 2 weeks

My house was built in 1817, I won't be letting it burn on my shift.

Keith
 
Last edited:

Tim The Tool Man

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,520
Location
Lehigh Valley, PA
I fought this same problem at my mother's house for several years. Had several service companies look at it but nobody could fix the thing. I ended up doing all the service myself because we were just throwing money at it using the HVAC companies. Replacing the jet and filter would always get me a few months so I eventually came to the conclusion that she had sludge build up in her tank and lines. -Circa 1950 buried outdoor tank and lines. The sludge buster stuff helped a little but it eventually got to the point where nothing would get the unit to fire and no oil would flow through the line = clogged fuel line.

So I call the pros up again asking them if they could replace the fuel lines but nobody would touch the outdoor tank. so I asked about blowing out the lines, again nobody did, or heard of doing that. Out of frustration I brought an air compressor to her house, popped the fill cap, went in her basement, hooked my compressor hose to her oil line and dumped two tank fulls of air through the lines.

This was 5 years ago and I have replaced the nozzle only once since that time because I thought it had been due after 3 years. I have since begun doing side jobs with a HVAC guy from my church, I'm more or less the gofer and also provide comic relief. Anyhow he threw his test meters/ gauges and **** on the old girl an was shocked to learn that my tinkering had the unit running at 84% efficiency.

This coming summer I will put an indoor tank in her basement along with a new high efficiency boiler.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I've got inside tanks, I have been thinking it "could" be a supply problem however when I pulled the inline filter part number 1A-30, there was some sludge but not enough to kill flow, I am trying to find a pump filter today, but am having little luck. I have not removed the cover to inspect at as I do not have a new gasket for it, don't need a fuel leak I cant fix.

What is this sludge buster stuff?? I've never heard of it, but a clean stable fuel supply CAN'T be a bad thing. Keith
 

BillK

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
9,378
Location
Beautiful Southern Maryland
Keith,
The fact that the nozzle was wet with fuel would tell me that it is not a fuel supply problem. Just like wet plugs in a car.... would you be looking at fuel or spark to fix a no start if the plugs were full of gas ?? I bet the ignitor is not working properly for some reason. We had oil heat in our house for 20 years before they ran a gas line up the street and during that time the only problems we ever had with the burner had to do with the ignitor not working properly. One guy that came out and looked at it said he always used a Nickle to set the spacing ?? He replaced the electrodes and reset the gap and we never had another problem with it.

By the way, there should be a glass "window" that you can look through and watch the ignitor spark, at least mine had one.
 

scottzilla

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
200
I pulled the nozzle out of it right after a misfire. The whole assembly was wet with fuel, like a fouled plug in an engine. I checked the ignition coil and it seem fine, the flame sensor checked out good with the DVOM and a flashlight. All I can figure is the fuel is not atomizing enough for the spark to ignite, or its not under enough pressure. I'm hoping it's just a clogged nozzle.

I hit the local hardware store, they had every nozzle in stock, except the one I need, the local Lowes, Home Depot doesn't stock them. So I'm going to leave work early and drive about 40 miles to the closest heating supply place, and pick up new nozzle and pump filter (actually a few of each) and hope like hell that fixes hit. This could not have happened at a worse time, we just shelled out just about all of our cash on Dr bills, tires for her Jeep, I got a speeding ticket and a HUGE emergency vet bill all in the last 2 weeks. GRRRRR Keith

This is what happened to mine. Turned out to be the transformer on the burner and also, my chimney needed to be cleaned. Remove the pipe where it enters your chimney, I bet there is a ton of ash/soot sitting there. This will cause the reset button to trip. Use a small shovel and remove all the junk at the base of your chimney.
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
Does it matter that this furnace is only 5 years old?? I can't remember ever changing the coil out in the furnace at my old house. We had it for 10 years and the furnace was 8 yrs old when we got it.

We have 5 fireplaces in this house, we get the chimneys cleaned every year and they do clean the furnace one at the same time. I'll use a flashlight and mirror to look in thru the draft door, to see it's condition. Thanks again to everybody. Keith
 

willhollin

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
612
Location
Worcestershire, England
Pressure gauge will be 1/8" NPTF.

I assume it is locking out before a flame is established? Assuming you haven't messed with the air shutter then this would indeed point to an ignition problem.

If you are feeling brave you could remove the coil lead and run the burner through the ignition sequence to see if the electrodes are sparking with the burner out of the furnace. As the spark will travel the shortest route, any carbon build up or cracking of the electrode insulation will mean no ignition.

You should be able to remove and wash the nylon filter in the oil pump if you think it's needed and use the original O ring to put the pump back together. Was the back of the nozzle dirty when you changed it?
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I was not able to source a nozzle yet. I have on set aside for me at the heating supply shop, I'll get there around 3 PM today, should have it installed around 5 or so.

Here is the coil my furnace uses http://www.furnaceparts.com/Store/Product/51771U.aspx
If they have it I'll buy one of them as well.

I have not moved any of the adjustments on the blower. and the reset is tripping BEFORE a flame is built, I'm thinking that excludes the flame sensor, the overfire sensor.

In simplest terms, that leaves spark and fuel. The nozzle is a year old, so I see no reason not to replace it. Changing filters is almost always a good idea. I'll report back tomorrow on what I find tonight. Keith
 

willhollin

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
612
Location
Worcestershire, England
This is where the terminology differs, over here the coil is the part that opens the stem on the oil pump to let fuel through to the nozzle. If you remove the lead from the coil as pictured below you would then be able to fire the burner momentarily to check for sparking.

suntec-coil-for-as-pump-230-volt-623-p.jpg
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
I'm sure your using the correct terms, I'm trying to equate this to what I understand, autos. I'm calling it the coil like in a Kettering ignition system. I see the furnace parts places are calling it an ignition module. I'll see if I can find that part on my unit. Keith
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
Well I installed the new jet last night, The one I pulled out looked VERY clean, I could see every pore in the filter. However the electrodes were a bit close to the nozzle according to the measurements I was given. So I relocated them. It has been firing all night and working just fine. I'm not saying it's fixed, I'm just hoping its working well enough to heat for the next bunch of days, till I make another payday. Keith
 

philjafo

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
244
The hole in the end of that nozzle is extremely tiny and even if its not plugged entirely, it doesn't take much to ruin the spray pattern. Tech support from any manufacturer will tell you it needs to be replaced every season. Almost all of the different furnace makers all have Beckett burners any way.

Glad to hear its going for you too
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
Tipgauge%20T100-220-2T.jpg


I was thinking of buying a tool like this to help with the tip settings. (I know another tool I wont be using but HAVE to have) I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that the furnace is still working when I get home tonight.

Thanks for all the help guys; like I said I'll be calling my furnace guy for a yearly service on the 16th when I get my next pay, I just hope he doesn't give me to much grief for tinkering with it, all though he shouldn't I never did when he brought his trucks to my garage. Keith
 

Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
1,019
Location
Kannapolis, NC
Just a quick note to say it does sometimes pay to get the right man for the right job. Paid for a service call, Got the full fall service. They found a leak in the supply line as part of the service. I am warm and happy.
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
Just to catch this thread up, after I put the new jet in, I was warm. I called the furnace guy and they came out. Gave me **** about changing the jet myself and how I could have burnt my home down. Any way wife writes him a check, and tells us "I cleaned everything up and adjusted everything. No idea why it would not light sometimes" 3 days after he leaves, it does it again. Friday the wife and I spend the night in the city, and come home to a cold house. Very cold.

I call the furnace guy tell him it's not fixed, come look at it, and call me if it's going to get expensive. I get a call before he heads to the house. Tells me it's either the ignition controller ($375 installed) or the ignition transformor ($340 installed) I do a quick search for the part online. I found about a dozen places that will ship a transformer, brand new un-opened to my home for less than $45. WOW!!!! Talk about parts markup. Oh and by the way, they will only install them both at the same time, as they can't test them to decide the failed component. Also the cleaning and a new nozzle cost me $275 They listed the retail cost of the nozzle as $43. I bought 2 of them for $17 at the local hardware store. They also said the one I installed was bad, it was less than a month old. I'm pretty sure I was getting hosed, but now I'm certain. Keith
 

Jackfre

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
4,418
Location
N CA
FYI, in your part of the world, and many others, the "oil parts houses" are Sid Harvey's and RE Michel. There are certainly others. No idea on pricing, but they pretty much have it all. You might look at a product that is called a Tiger Loop. It has solved a lot of oil delivery problems in the past...if it is an oil delivery problem.
 

oilslick

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
1,925
Location
Central illinois
Good luck maybe find a book about oil burner so you understand them inside out! Keep safety in mind but remember it not brain surgery.
 

Cheshirehvac

New member
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Messages
4
Location
Henrico, Virginia
I know this will sound weird but here ya go. With the nozzle being wet with oil and all the information you have provided, it sound like what you are seeing is Nozzle Line After Drip. In a nutshell, you have an air pocket in the nozzle tube that you screw the nozzle into. When the burner is running, the air bubble is compressed allowing the oil to flow to the nozzle. When the burner shuts down, the air pocket expands pushing the oil in the tube out into the still hot chamber where it ignites. This will cause the primary to trip because it is reading a flame signal after the burner shuts down. I have seen this more commonly on 1 pipe systems where the return line on the pump is not used. Beckett had a nozzle tube for air elimination but has since stopped producing them. Definitely get the furnace serviced every you and set-up and checked with a combustion analyzer. I am an HVAC/R technician with 20+ years in the field and I will never gauge how a burner it set up by eye. Hope this helps you out!
 
OP
3

383 240z

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
4,295
Location
Findley Twp. Allegheny Co.
This is a very intermittant issue. Only kicks off once every few days. I have the printout from when the HVAC guy was here on 12-12-12. If it will help I can scan and post it. What gets me, is I've had no issues with this furnace in the last 5 years. Just started about 1 month into this heating season. Keith
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom