Old house 2 Wire

[jtpntx]

Im renovating an old house built in 1948. The wiring is a mess really nothing I can't straighten out. I am happily surprised that the black mesh wiring is in good shape and I see no reason to pull it all and redo.
I'm getting a new panel put in and I will properly break it up into more circuits than is there now but the real question is regarding the lack of Ground.

The panel will have to remain outside so I'm against using GFCI breakers in the panel. You'd have to go outside to reset them.

Second I could use GFCI outlets 1 per circuit and label all the outlets.

What I'd really like to do is ground each outlet in this 1050sqft 2 bedroom house. The crawl space gives plenty of working room and I can drill down from each outlet and route the ground back to the panel.

The old metal boxes aren't bonded if Im saying that right so I can't do that.

It all makes sense to me but I'd like to get another set of eyes on this plan 1st. The Electrician putting in the panel wasn't much help.

 

[dmcintosh]

Not an electrician, but I would replace anything that you can. My be fine now, but the code was changed to include a ground for a reason. Hopefully it won't ever be an issue, but if time and finances permit, I would replace.

 

[HamAndEggs]

I have a house with Aluminum wire, so similar boat to you really. I've just been replacing circuits as I need to, eventually the whole house will be new

I'd just plug away at it slowly

 

[jtpntx]

Many years ago I rented a 70's built house that had aluminum wiring. I wasn't smart enough to go to each outlet and keep the connections tight. You could plug the vacuum in one outlet and sparks would fly out of another.

 

[cmandp]

The house is relatively small and it sounds like you have easy access to run wiring from all existing boxes through the crawlspace.

If that's the case I would think about just running all new NM-B with ground. So you'll have new wire you know is good with ground wire built in.

I'm not an electrician so maybe professionals have a better way to just add ground to an existing 2 wire system with no ground?

 

[HamAndEggs]

The house is relatively small and it sounds like you have easy access to run wiring from all existing boxes through the crawlspace.

If that's the case I would think about just running all new NM-B with ground. So you'll have new wire you know is good with ground wire built in.

I'm not an electrician so maybe professionals have a better way to just add ground to an existing 2 wire system with no ground?

The issue there is the old wire has a MUCH lower temperature rating than new Romex, so it will never be as good as running new

 

[Wrench97]

Wiring that old needs to be replaced it does get dry and brittle, the temp rating is lower then modern wire as well as the missing grounds.
If you are up dating/remodeling now is the time.

 

[stickshift]

What I'd really like to do is ground each outlet in this 1050sqft 2 bedroom house. The crawl space gives plenty of working room and I can drill down from each outlet and route the ground back to the panel.

If you can do that, why not just run new romex?

 

[sberry]

If this is an investment run new wire now. One thing to consider here is that you dont got to copy the old. Some old wire is fine but one of the big root plusses on any renovation is new wire especially if a guy can put it in for the cost of the materials. Dont be scared to take a little wall out from the back once in a while, get a good plan, I like a Jbox for some of it vs trying to daisy chain it all helps with renovation. Panel is easy to pull up on interior walls etc, do it new.

 

[bamawildcat]

There is no electrical code that lets you run a separate ground cable in your application. It is either replace the cable or run a two prong outlet, or GFCI outlet.

 

[sberry]

I wired several houses like this, 1 I was gonna fix and ****, wire was obsolete when it was built. switch and 3 ways fukked up, got to realize we were gonna have to fix it all and so much easier to start over. I was in to it on a couple before I figure this out and now when I do them pretty much pretend the existing wire isnt there unless I can use it for a free pull. I done a lot to kitchen counters from the basement and from the wall on the other side.
Its a good thing to say when you do this,,, got every new wire in this house,,, its already old and obsolete and want to remodel over it?

 

[JRC3]

Many years ago I rented a 70's built house that had aluminum wiring.

You may know already, but do you know why that house had aluminum wire?

At least one good thing came from it. PVC sanitary.

 

[sberry]

Meets modern fixtures etc, a whole bunch of headaches go away when you run new wire and no one gives it a second thought as to when it was installed etc. Wire it today, beat a whole new level of codes. Ha. Getting a new panel none of it has to look like the original, underground is often now standard. Almost every post in this thread said the same thing.
Agree no code lets you pul another wire and if you can do it can pull a new wire. Old homes often have a King circuit, older ones worse but a lot of **** gets added on and new circuits not always used. In other words the remodel has 3 new circuits and its got a tv and 1 bath on it but the kitchen didnt get any help.
Dipstick in the 70's still wire like it was 1928, got the kitchen, bathroom, fridge and bunch of lights on one 15 circuit I was close to the panel in a similar of my own a while back and put 5 new in. I moved in to a mobile home was built in 76, gfci was an add on in the bathroom and the kitchen was 15A and a general on a gfci breaker. I had moved the laundry and used the spaces for a new 12/3 to the kitchen counter top

 

[stickshift]

There is no electrical code that lets you run a separate ground cable in your application. It is either replace the cable or run a two prong outlet, or GFCI outlet.

That may have been true in the past, but NEC now does allow adding a ground. See 250.130(C). Which makes a lot of sense. All that old wiring is grandfathered in. If someone wants to run ground wire, it wouldn't make sense to dissuade them from enhancing safety by requiring they either run new cable or do nothing - in which case they may opt to do nothing. Because there are instances where adding just a ground wire is a lot easier than running new cable.

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) An equipment grounding conductor that is part of another branch circuit that originates from the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(5) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(6) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

 

[Glemon]

I am in the same boat, much of the house was built in the early fifties and ungrounded. I am not an electrician, but had an electrician suggest gfci breakers-not cheap, but easy. Not an expert, willing to be corrected if not a good solution.

 

[stickshift]

I am in the same boat, much of the house was built in the early fifties and ungrounded. I am not an electrician, but had an electrician suggest gfci breakers-not cheap, but easy. Not an expert, willing to be corrected if not a good solution.

GFCI breakers aren't cheap, but they are probably the cheapest solution.

 

[Jim greengo]

GFCI breakers aren't cheap, but they are probably the cheapest solution.

What about shared neutrals?

 

[xjfish]

That may have been true in the past, but NEC now does allow adding a ground. See 250.130(C). Which makes a lot of sense. All that old wiring is grandfathered in. If someone wants to run ground wire, it wouldn't make sense to dissuade them from enhancing safety by requiring they either run new cable or do nothing - in which case they may opt to do nothing. Because there are instances where adding just a ground wire is a lot easier than running new cable.

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) An equipment grounding conductor that is part of another branch circuit that originates from the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(5) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(6) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

Good to know. I also thought that wasn't allowed. I have several ungrounded circuits in my 1920 home with new circuits mixed in. Most of it is pretty "clean" and legit, but there's definitely room for improvement/safety.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, modern homes have much greater electrical demands than the older ones. You will be well served to bring your home up to code.

Back in the day the principal demand was only lighting, since then refrigerators, washing machines, toasters, radio and television have been added.

Many of us also have computers with laser printers.

When I was in High School, a normal residential service was 60 amps, last time I checked the minimum allowed was 100 amps and 200 has become commonplace.

 

[stickshift]

What about shared neutrals?

Good point. For MWBC's that would be too difficult to run separate cables for, maybe GFCI outlets is the way to go?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im renovating an old house built in 1948. The wiring is a mess really nothing I can't straighten out. I am happily surprised that the black mesh wiring is in good shape and I see no reason to pull it all and redo.
I'm getting a new panel put in and I will properly break it up into more circuits than is there now but the real question is regarding the lack of Ground.

The panel will have to remain outside so I'm against using GFCI breakers in the panel. You'd have to go outside to reset them.

Second I could use GFCI outlets 1 per circuit and label all the outlets.

What I'd really like to do is ground each outlet in this 1050sqft 2 bedroom house. The crawl space gives plenty of working room and I can drill down from each outlet and route the ground back to the panel.

The old metal boxes aren't bonded if Im saying that right so I can't do that.

It all makes sense to me but I'd like to get another set of eyes on this plan 1st. The Electrician putting in the panel wasn't much help.

why do you want to add GFCIs? It wont give you much benefit.... neither will adding a ground wire to 2-wire circuits as most utilization equipment is 2-wire.

Ive rented quite a few old houses and I just add ground wires to outlets that I need the ground wire on like surge suppressors, UPSs, fridges microwaves, washing machines, etc

The house is relatively small and it sounds like you have easy access to run wiring from all existing boxes through the crawlspace.

If that's the case I would think about just running all new NM-B with ground. So you'll have new wire you know is good with ground wire built in.

I'm not an electrician so maybe professionals have a better way to just add ground to an existing 2 wire system with no ground?

Ive done it many times. not hard in most houses.

There is no electrical code that lets you run a separate ground cable in your application. It is either replace the cable or run a two prong outlet, or GFCI outlet.

not true at all. Code is permissive and there is no code that prohibits the practice. Ive done this many times even on inspected jobs and there was no issue with it

 

[NUTTSGT]

Not an electrician but I see the results of poor wiring and overloaded circuits.

So let me ask you this, what guage is that 2 wire ?

 

[sberry]

not true at all. Code is permissive and there is no code that prohibits the practice. Ive done this many times even on inspected jobs and there was no issue with it

I will agree it can work, that it is done and there is an exception or 2 for this but for a remodel its kind of ****** practice. A remodel kind of implies this is long term and the wire in the wall is already 70 years old and obsolete. Do we want to see it in another long term installation?

Ive rented quite a few old houses and I just add ground wires to outlets that I need the ground wire on like surge suppressors, UPSs, fridges microwaves, washing machines, etc

Rental being different than remodel.

 

[sberry]

I saw this on toh,, 250K addition and then splice on to old alum wire (with an approved method of course) but **** old wire to old part of a house that really wasnt worth saving in the first place. Beautiful new work, hundreds of thousands of dollars and splice on to an old aluminum wire in old part of house. Wire should have been replaced as part of this whole renovation.

 

[acer66]

Not sure if I would bother to run an extra ground unless it is just for a few and you do not plan to do the whole house.
For the whole house I would rather rewire everything.

 

[cmandp]

What some other posters mentioned about the new wire being a higher temperature rating is something else I was thinking but didn't communicate.

Honestly if I were you and I was going to crawl around in the crawl space running wire you might as well get new hot and neutrals along with the ground. Plus your getting a new panel so you can layout breakers a logical way. And if you want to have 20amp outlet circuits you can add them.

Heck you might not need to rewire all at once. You can hook old stuff up to the new panel and chip away a rooms as you have time.

 

[stickshift]

What about shared neutrals?

Good point. For MWBC's that would be too difficult to run separate cables for, maybe GFCI outlets is the way to go?

Scratch that. Just learned that 2 pole GFCI breakers are a thing. So MWBC's can be protected at the panel.

 

[AntonLargiader]

why do you want to add GFCIs? It wont give you much benefit.... neither will adding a ground wire to 2-wire circuits as most utilization equipment is 2-wire.

In what way would he not get the same benefit that GFCI provides to everyone else?

 

[acer66]

In what way would he not get the same benefit that GFCI provides to everyone else?

He would get the same GFCI benefits everywhere they are just not needed.

When I was in a similar situation like the op I just ran an extra ground to receptacles where I knew I needed a ground because like wyliesdiesels said there are not many devices that actually use a ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

In what way would he not get the same benefit that GFCI provides to everyone else?

perhaps i wasnt clear.

adding a GFCI to a bedroom outlet thats seldom used for much isnt gonna provide benefit.

adding a GFCI to a 2-wire outlet where a surge suppressor is plugged in will not work to shunt surges....

and many more examples.

i wasnt saying they would benefit someone else more so than him, just that adding GFCIs to every circuit or outlet in the house has little benefit.

 

[75gmck25]

I had a similar situation with my 1300 sq ft two story house, and I gradually rewired almost all of it as I went along with the renovation. I still have one 15 amp circuit that powers several light fixtures and one receptacle, but the rest of the house is all new NM cable. I started out with a new 200 amp panel and 7 old circuits, and now have 36 spaces filled in a 40 space panel. Upgrading the kitchen, adding a two story addition, installing a subpanel in the garage, and renovating the kitchen and bathrooms led to quite a few new circuits.

I was able to drill up from the basement or down from the attic to get into the walls. Then I had to remove the collars that held the metal wrapped wiring on the boxes and pull it all out. In most cases I was able to use the old cable to pull new, or to bring in a pull string. The most difficult part was working with the old metal receptacle and switch boxes, since they are lower capacity than new boxes and that limits the wire count. In some cases I removed the old boxes by cutting the metal straps that connected to the studs, but the vibration from cutting was hard on surrounding plaster.

Bruce

 

[AntonLargiader]

Sure, but adding one here and one there wouldn't be the way to go. It's an old house, so there are probably few circuits. A GFCI at the front of each one protects the whole circuit. It would be easy and dirt cheap to get pretty comprehensive GFCI protection, comparable to or exceeding that of newer houses.

And if adding that GFCI to the seldom used bedroom recep saves the kid who shoves a fork into it, well, it did exactly what it's supposed to do.

perhaps i wasnt clear.

adding a GFCI to a bedroom outlet thats seldom used for much isnt gonna provide benefit.

adding a GFCI to a 2-wire outlet where a surge suppressor is plugged in will not work to shunt surges....

and many more examples.

i wasnt saying they would benefit someone else more so than him, just that adding GFCIs to every circuit or outlet in the house has little benefit.

 

[TractorJeff]

Not an electrician but I see the results of poor wiring and overloaded circuits.

So let me ask you this, what guage is that 2 wire ?

I too wanted to ask about wire Gauge!
I helped rewire a couple of very old houses back in the mid-80's. All the wire in them was 14ga with VERY FEW 12ga wires! Both of these were 4 fuse 60A Service Panels being updated to Breaker Panels. Rooms were daisy chained so if a fuse blew another room or two would go dark!
Heck, one place had a 14ga wire going out to the attached garage outlet that had a 30 amp fuse on it!

 

[MikeF2316]

My house was built in 1950 and has some old ungrounded wiring. There's lots of more modern stuff too. The previous owner installed electric baseboard heat and a 200 amp service.

The original wiring mostly does lights now. I don't have any light fixtures that hold heat to the ceiling. And it is 14 gauge.

The previous owner also installed some modern grounded receptacles in a few spots without a ground wire. I swapped in GFCIs to protect all the old wiring circuits.

 

[sberry]

There is no electrical code that lets you run a separate ground cable in your application. It is either replace the cable or run a two prong outlet, or GFCI outlet.

In regards to this thread,, this is the correct answer. For several reasons including the temp rating and mostly the age of the wire. The wire is already 70 years old and not compatible with anything new including common receipt replacement now or in the future. While we got a couple code guru types can find the exception it wasn't the intent to allow rewire doing this
First, it says,,, a recept, does not allow daisy chain and good practice has ground running with the other conductors, same raceway pipe or cable and it's long been advocated by serious code / safety types that if you can get that wire you can pull a new cable.
Second and again, this is 2020, that was 1948, never sure what practice was followed, if it was closely inspected but the wire would been obsolete in 1965, not long after it was installed wouldn't been allowed. Again, we got to do a little math,,, 73 years old,,,,,,, .
While there is an exception for an outlet it was not intended to do a rewire for 73 old wire. The exception was put in decades ago, kind of surprised it hasn't been removed.
3rd,, it's a bit about forum,, the advice given here is the best in the world, often wayyyy better than ask a local guy etc due to the collective nature but the intent can get lost and anyone advocating anything but new wire in this case is doing a diservice, we hear a lot about hacks and this would be way up on the list even if the code can be scraped to find the exception.
If it's a choice of not doing it at all I am for not doing it, as said it's a matter of the installer, if he can do that he can do this or he shouldn't be fooling with it.
This is why I agree with that post about it not being allowed even if it might be, even if a master did it in a house he rented, it's bad form to leave the impression this is even remotely a good idea.
You reworking this house it is a thing of beauty when you are done to say,,, every scrap of old wire gone. When you selling, when you insuring, the box can be checked, wire in excellent condition instead of **** strung all over with everyone wondering,, what does this **** do

 

[sberry]

I remember when I wss studying and on a "professional " forum way back and asked about this exception. Got jumped on as a wanna be hack and they wouldn't dignify an answer because they didn't want to contribute to a hack wanting to find a way around doing it right,,, which was an assumption and total nonsense, I just wondered what was legal.
Now,, 25 yea re later got professional telling amateur this is ok. Along with some reasoning that 2 wire stuff don't need it which kind of implies or speculates the user will never need or want to use a 3 conductor appliance there. Never use a power strip, plug in a hospital type bed, won't be tempted to use a cheater.

 

[acer66]

I remember when I wss studying and on a "professional " forum way back and asked about this exception. Got jumped on as a wanna be hack and they wouldn't dignify an answer because they didn't want to contribute to a hack wanting to find a way around doing it right,,, which was an assumption and total nonsense, I just wondered what was legal.
Now,, 25 yea re later got professional telling amateur this is ok. Along with some reasoning that 2 wire stuff don't need it which kind of implies or speculates the user will never need or want to use a 3 conductor appliance there. Never use a power strip, plug in a hospital type bed, won't be tempted to use a cheater.

Things can and do change and a lot of time people are stuck in their ways and react accordingly.

 

[theoldwizard1]

There is no electrical code that lets you run a separate ground cable in your application. It is either replace the cable or run a two prong outlet, or GFCI outlet.

A lot of people so not understand that inserting a GFCI in the circuit allow the use of 3 prong receptacles that are properly labeled.

 

[sberry]

I got no problem with that and do it but not as part of a real remodel. It doesnt always fix other issues as a recept its fine but these circuits often share lights, old wire not permitted to be used with modern fixtures without adding another booger in it. Not a fan of splicing old wire in an attic. Didnt say it couldnt be done but its just more stuff in often hard to reach places where it doesnt aways get done well.

 

[bczygan]

I've got a 40's house with the same situation.

60A fuse panel.

Cloth insulated wiring with no ground.

Old receptacles failing.

Very dry framing.

Fuse panel failing with water intrusion and shorting where fuses touch.

Smoke where cloth covered wiring touches wood framing with circuit on.

It ALL needs replacing!

Bill