Old universal

[Oldtuleguy]

I have been collecting stuff for a blackhawk # 8 set and came across this old universal joint. Most of these I see are male on both ends. Did anyone besides blackhawk use this style joint with the female 1/2" drive? No maker markings on it.

 

[twertsy]

I have been collecting stuff for a blackhawk # 8 set and came across this old universal joint. Most of these I see are male on both ends. Did anyone besides blackhawk use this style joint with the female 1/2" drive? No maker markings on it.

The "shoulders" on the smaller drive side look like Mossberg to me. Further, I don't believe I've ever seen a vintage Blackhawk tool that wasn't branded.

 

[r_olson_06]

Hinsdale made one as well but that looks more Mossberg. It should have a stamp on it with an M in a diamond if I remember correctly.

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[Oldtuleguy]

Thanks for info guys. Could not find a stamp. I will clean it up and check again.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Cleaned it up, still no visible marks. Here is a pic with a blackhawk universal. A little narrower across the top, and a bit longer. No major differences, considering these were probably hand made.

 

[twertsy]

The first Blackhawk sockets were not branded. They have an indian logo on them.

I'm not trying to be "snooty" RJ, but wouldn't that be considered branding?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Did anyone besides blackhawk use this style joint with the female 1/2" drive?

Chicago Mfgr & Distributing did, but it was made out of malleable iron, and it would have a large A10 and A3 stamped on the male and female drive tangs. As you surmised, and as far as I know, Mossberg, Walden, Miller, Syracuse, and Hinsdale all made double-male universal joints in the early era. Most of them, including the Mossberg, required the use of a spare pressed steel socket as an adaptor. The socket would be plugged in from the top, and the other male drive end of the uni joint (the end not plugged into a socket) would be plugged into the inner drive opening of the socket inside the ratchet, acting as a shim. Walden made one with a 1/2-inch stud on one end (for the internal drive on the pressed steel socket tang) and an 11/16-inch stud on the other end for the ratchet female drive opening.

BTW, the only early era Blackhawk uni joint I have ever seen is on AA, and it does not have the so-called "Indian-head" or "Arrow-head" logo stamped on it.

EDIT: Which brings me to this post from you...

Cleaned it up, still no visible marks. Here is a pic with a blackhawk universal. A little narrower across the top, and a bit longer. No major differences, considering these were probably hand made.

...which confused the **** out of me.

It appears you already have an early Blackhawk universal joint to compare to the unidentified universal joint you just found. ?? How is the one you are identifying as a Blackhawk marked?

 

[twertsy]

Chicago Mfgr & Distributing did, but it was made out of malleable iron, and it would have a large A10 and A3 stamped on the male and female drive tangs. As you surmised, and as far as I know, Mossberg, Walden, Miller, Syracuse, and Hinsdale all made double-male universal joints in the early era. Most of them, including the Mossberg, required the use of a spare pressed steel socket as an adaptor. The socket would be plugged in from the top, and the other male drive end of the uni joint (the end not plugged into a socket) would be plugged into the inner drive opening of the socket inside the ratchet, acting as a shim. Walden made one with a 1/2-inch stud on one end (for the internal drive on the pressed steel socket tang) and an 11/16-inch stud on the other end for the ratchet female drive opening.

BTW, the only early era Blackhawk uni joint I have ever seen is on AA, and it does not have the so-called "Indian-head" or "Arrow-head" logo stamped on it.

EDIT: Which brings me to this post from you...


...which confused the **** out of me.

It appears you already have an early Blackhawk universal joint to compare to the unidentified universal joint you just found. ?? How is the one you are identifying as a Blackhawk marked?

I find it unlikely any Blackhawk tool is unmarked. In all my sets, every single piece is marked.....

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I find it unlikely any Blackhawk tool is unmarked. In all my sets, every single piece is marked.....

On principle I would tend to agree with you, but the fact remains, I have never seen an early (i.e., 1919, wood box, set No. 4, No. 6, or No. 8, etc) Blackhawk universal joint with an "Arrow-head" stamp. Are the sets you're referring to early? Do they have a universal joint? And if so, is it marked?

 

[twertsy]

Yeah, touché............I don't yet have a wood box example

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm still curious about Otg apparently already having a universal joint he considers to be Blackhawk made (shown for comparison purposes in his photo above). Since he's looking for tools to fill out a Blackhawk No. 8 set, and he has found a second universal joint he's trying to identify, I'm assuming he already has another (different than No. 8) early Blackhawk set that the first universal joint goes to. Methinks Otg has been holding out on us.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

As twertsy states , i.e. aa, known early sets do not have marked universals, including my #10 set which was largely unused and still had the original black paint on most pieces, including the universal. Furthermore, even the early t4 is unmarked, but is clearly a blackhawk tool.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

As twertsy states , i.e. aa, known early sets do not have marked universals,

That was me, but thanks for confirming.

including my #10 set which was largely unused and still had the original black paint on most pieces, including the universal.

I had forgotten you showed your Blackhawk #10 set in another thread, perhaps it was the Blackhawk thread itself, so now things are making much more sense to me.

So, you also have a Blackhawk #8 set you're trying to complete, you recently found a loose orphan universal joint, and without the benefit of it being found in a set, like the one in your Blackhawk #10 set, even though you were thinking it was probably a Blackhawk, by comparison, you started this thread to inquire if any other Mfgr's made a universal joint like that, to eliminate other possibilities, since it's unmarked.

See my post #8 above.

I really can't think of any other possibilities for a primitive universal joint with male and female connections other than Blackhawk. Remember that Blackhawk got into the game relatively late, at an interesting time of technology transition in the industry. In 1919, external drive pressed steel sockets - which they had never built, were waning, and forged heavy detachable sockets and handles were just beginning. The extensions in the early Blackhawk kits had one foot in the old style, too, with a socket with a female drive opening in it essentially hot-crimped or press-fit onto a 1/2-inch stock steel bar, rather than the extension made as a single forged piece of steel they would make in a few years hence.

EDIT: I'd have to do some work to actually verify this, but those early Blackhawk universals may actually be the first ever 1/2-inch drive male-female universal joints, crudely hand-forged like the male-male unis in the old pressed steel socket sets, but advanced enough to use a female drive opening on the other end for a ratchet with a 1/2-inch drive male drive stud.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I had assumed as much, but thought it wise to inquire. The #8 set is later than the #10, and may have come with one of these universals, pictured on left. The t4 is marked, and it has later style sockets with usa next to the arrow head, which is larger.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

The later socket pictured on left. Note knurling different on earlier socket, ca.1919. Later set also has early 911x ratchet with fat head, placing it around 1924. Early 911 pictured on left...

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I don't know who made those universals, but have found them in snap on and blackhawk sets, never marked. Just an update, I found a 1924 blackhawk ad that does show the later style universal, so it appears they had switched by then...

 

[twertsy]

I don't know who made those universals, but have found them in snap on and blackhawk sets, never marked. Just an update, I found a 1924 blackhawk ad that does show the later style universal, so it appears they had switched by then...

I suspect an early box set from Milwaukee Tool & Forge would yield the exact same universal.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That would make sense