Old wiring without ground.

[30-30remchester]

First let me state that I absolutely hate well houses. So, to start, I got called to re-wire an old wellhouse (pit). The wire coming into the well house is buried under concrete, so we have to deal with what we have. It is old 12 UF without a ground. I ran it into a 4" square metal box and from the box I went to an on/off switch and from that switch I went to the pressure switch on the pump. From the 4" metal box on I ran 12/2 UF with a ground for everything and tied al the grounds together just like normal wiring. The "issue" is, the grounds are not attached to anything but themselves. Can I simply run a ground wire to the galvanized metal underground water pipes leading into the house? Is it safe in cases of a short? I ask because years ago the Vail ski area had some of their underground wiring grounded to their metal ski tram poles and some skier died when he ran into the pole and was electrocuted. It seems logical to ground to the pipe, but wanted ask for second opinions.

 

[theoldwizard1]

This may NOT be the best solution in this location, BUT ...

You can use a GFCI receptacle for "protection". The problem is, if it trips you have to go out to the wellhouse and push the reset button.

If you want to be "up to code", you will have to run NEW 12/2 (w/ground) from the source to the wellhouse.

 

[Bert_]

Been there done that. Use plastic boxes, plastic conduit, ect as much as you can.

I worked on one 240v well that has about 1/4 mile of two open conductors on poles.

Another that has 6-700' of 10-2 uf w/o ground. That one someone actually added a small transformer to get 120v for a heat tape.

 

[The Cobbler]

if it trips you have to go out to the wellhouse and push the reset button

could always put the gfci in the house and wire the pump to the load terminals .
we are assuming the pump is on 120volts ???

 

[30-30remchester]

Pump is 120 volt. Upon installing the old 2 wire into the 4" box, I added a 2 receptible gfci so that a well house light and heat tapes can be plugged in. So in essence I have a black and white coming under ground to the first box. I wired these 2 wires to the on/off switch, pressure switch and added the gfci to these wires. All wired together and wire nutted together. As I understand it, the gfci could act as a ground safety in this circumstance. I was just wondering if an addition ground wire to the metal water pipe without endangering anyone.

 

[larry4406]

I’m not a sparky so don’t flame me.

Can a transformer be placed at the end to step up/down the incoming and a ground rod be placed at that location? I seem to recall reading about this.

OP states 12/2 but not the supplied voltage. My well pump is 240V and was wired with 12/2 and ground.

Edit - OP stated pump is 120V as I was writing the post.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

First let me state that I absolutely hate well houses. So, to start, I got called to re-wire an old wellhouse (pit). The wire coming into the well house is buried under concrete, so we have to deal with what we have. It is old 12 UF without a ground. I ran it into a 4" square metal box and from the box I went to an on/off switch and from that switch I went to the pressure switch on the pump. From the 4" metal box on I ran 12/2 UF with a ground for everything and tied al the grounds together just like normal wiring. The "issue" is, the grounds are not attached to anything but themselves. Can I simply run a ground wire to the galvanized metal underground water pipes leading into the house? Is it safe in cases of a short? I ask because years ago the Vail ski area had some of their underground wiring grounded to their metal ski tram poles and some skier died when he ran into the pole and was electrocuted. It seems logical to ground to the pipe, but wanted ask for second opinions.

the skier was electrocuted because the metal wasnt properly bonded

the metal plumbing shouldve already been bonded to the main service panel in addition to the EGC in the power feed. This wouldve never passed code without the EGC either.

Keep in mind, if there is a break in the metal pipe (such a section of plastic) the bond will not connect the entire section of pipe and therefor not prevent the pipe from becoming energized.

I would run a separate EGC AND make sure the pipe is properly bonded as it should be with a proper install. you dont want to rely on the plumbing bond, for the EGC as well, since if the pipe becomes disconnected in some manner, you wont be able to prevent electrocutions should the plumbing become energized.

 

[30-30remchester]

It would be a giant pain in the posterior, but I could install a EGC directly to the steel well casing. With black plastic poly pipe coming out of the well then there would be no connection to the galvanized waterline going from the pressure tank to the house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It would be a giant pain in the posterior, but I could install a EGC directly to the steel well casing. With black plastic poly pipe coming out of the well then there would be no connection to the galvanized waterline going from the pressure tank to the house.

that wouldnt be an EGC though. an EGC- equipment grounding conductor, is a low impedance fault current pathway that allows breakers to clear fault current. This wire ultimately needs to connect to the neutral bar in the main service panel

connecting a wire to a well casing would just be a bond wire and since theres poly pipe, it actually isnt bonding anything, to prevent metallic pathways from becoming energized.

 

[30-30remchester]

Thanks for all the replies. wyliesdiesels is a great help.

 

[theoldwizard1]

As I understand it, the gfci could act as a ground safety in this circumstance.

Not exactly.

GFCI measures the current coming in on the hot wire and compares it to the current going out on the neutral wire. If they are different, it trips.

So yes, if current finds a different path to ground it will trip.

 

[green jeans]

Hi, the only ground your going to need will be from the main panel at the house, the earth ground is a poor conductor of electrify. and will not help your issues, A GFCI with alarm would work.. if can hear it far away. but wiring the pump house with grounded wiring just caused a code violation, now you have to bring int a ground from the power source(main Panel), sorry not work around.

 

[Two Sheds]

I'm thinking it might be safer to use a GFCI breaker, but it might be at risk of nuisance tripping from the pump.