One rat - Many Rats

[Max]

Years ago I worked with a team where we had to test complicated equipment and debug a lot of issues. One saying we had was "One rat - Many rats". The thinking was that a farmer walks into his barn, and the first thing he sees is a rat in the grain. What are the odds that he just saw the only rat in the barn? You're right - the odds that there are more rats is high. We used this perspective in our testing, so when we found an issue in testing we'd add a bunch more tests targeted to that area to try to find more "rats".

So recently we had a leak in a wall of our house, and that led to a lot of work in fixing it. As part of the fix, I opened up an outlet in our finished basement, and I found that the grounds looked like the picture below. Hmm. So I opened up the other five outlets in the room and four of them had the same issue.



Besides the bad grounds (the NEC is ok with three or more twists, right? ) all of the outlets were back-stabbed, and about half were loose to the wall. Also about half of the outlets used crimped ferrules for the ground connection (which I think met at least the older NEC reqts) but most of them were loose due to being crimped by pliers and all are replaced.

Needless to say, I am on a jihad and methodically going through all of the outlets in our basement. Trying to make lemonade from lemons, I am also making a breaker/light/outlet map at the same time. Once I get done with downstairs I'll hit upstairs, and after that I'll check all of the switches. Lots of work, but I figure it's better than burning down my house or getting electrocuted...

And remember - one rat, many rats.

 

[Norcal]

Years ago I worked with a team where we had to test complicated equipment and debug a lot of issues. One saying we had was "One rat - Many rats". The thinking was that a farmer walks into his barn, and the first thing he sees is a rat in the grain. What are the odds that he just saw the only rat in the barn? You're right - the odds that there are more rats is high. We used this perspective in our testing, so when we found an issue in testing we'd add a bunch more tests targeted to that area to try to find more "rats".

So recently we had a leak in a wall of our house, and that led to a lot of work in fixing it. As part of the fix, I opened up an outlet in our finished basement, and I found that the grounds looked like the picture below. Hmm. So I opened up the other five outlets in the room and four of them had the same issue.



Besides the bad grounds (the NEC is ok with three or more twists, right? ) all of the outlets were back-stabbed, and about half were loose to the wall. Also about half of the outlets used crimped ferrules for the ground connection (which I think met at least the older NEC reqts) but most of them were loose due to being crimped by pliers and all are replaced.

Needless to say, I am on a jihad and methodically going through all of the outlets in our basement. Trying to make lemonade from lemons, I am also making a breaker/light/outlet map at the same time. Once I get done with downstairs I'll hit upstairs, and after that I'll check all of the switches. Lots of work, but I figure it's better than burning down my house or getting electrocuted...

And remember - one rat, many rats.

Splice caps need the proper crimping tool spec'ed by the splice cap manufacturer & twisting the grounds is not enough by it's self it needs a connector to secure it, a properly applied splice cap, I prefer copper over steel, is a quick & economical way to achieve compliance, Greenies® are another way.

 

[Max]

Splice caps need the proper crimping tool spec'ed by the splice cap manufacturer & twisting the grounds is not enough by it's self it needs a connector to secure it, a properly applied splice cap, I prefer copper over steel, is a quick & economical way to achieve compliance, Greenies® are another way.

I agree, which is why I used greenies. It's pretty clear from both the shape of the crimp and the result (loose) that the person that did the work just used pliers. My suspicion is that the previous owner wired the basement and not a pro, but I'll still check all of the outlets upstairs. Some of them are loose anyway and my wife wants them fixed...

 

[nadogail]

I agree, which is why I used greenies. It's pretty clear from both the shape of the crimp and the result (loose) that the person that did the work just used pliers. My suspicion is that the previous owner wired the basement and not a pro, but I'll still check all of the outlets upstairs. Some of them are loose anyway and my wife wants them fixed...

Your customer is who not only keeps you company in the evenings and weekends, she may also wash your laundry and perform other “Domestic Duties”. The old saying “Happy Wife equals a Happy Life” seems to fit your situation.

Let her know what a mess you have found and show her how you are taking care of business.

 

[sparky 1971]

The grounds like that wouldn't bother me at all. Yes, it's a code violation to not have some sort of mechanical connector, but is it going to come apart and lose the connection without a crimp or wire nut of some sort? No. Now, the back stabbed receptacles on the other hand...are perfectly code compliant, but should be pig tailed. It's not something I would ever do and have never done, but code says it's ok due to the listing.

 

[Max]

The grounds like that wouldn't bother me at all. Yes, it's a code violation to not have some sort of mechanical connector, but is it going to come apart and lose the connection without a crimp or wire nut of some sort? No. Now, the back stabbed receptacles on the other hand...are perfectly code compliant, but should be pig tailed. It's not something I would ever do and have never done, but code says it's ok due to the listing.

You’re an electrician and I’m not. Also from your prior posts I respect your opinion. And odds are the ground in that outlet will never be needed. But over time oxide will build up on the twisted wires and it may not always be a good connection. So I don’t know. But if it was a hot done that way - wrapped in some kind of super good heat shrink - would it still be ok? For me, I wouldn‘t like a hot that way, so I am fixing the grounds.

In general I think the NEC is a good code and it embodies the learnings of a lot of hard lessons. But it isn’t perfect. Some things I think the manufacturers slip in like AFCIs are of limited use. And I think backstabbing is only in there for high volume cheap wiring like subdivisions. All of the backstabbed outlets I’ve seen so far are ok, but previously I’ve replaced about half a dozen switches here where the switch was overheated at the stab.

 

[Norcal]

You’re an electrician and I’m not. Also from your prior posts I respect your opinion. And odds are the ground in that outlet will never be needed. But over time oxide will build up on the twisted wires and it may not always be a good connection. So I don’t know. But if it was a hot done that way - wrapped in some kind of super good heat shrink - would it still be ok? For me, I wouldn‘t like a hot that way, so I am fixing the grounds.

In general I think the NEC is a good code and it embodies the learnings of a lot of hard lessons. But it isn’t perfect. Some things I think the manufacturers slip in like AFCIs are of limited use. And I think backstabbing is only in there for high volume cheap wiring like subdivisions. All of the backstabbed outlets I’ve seen so far are ok, but previously I’ve replaced about half a dozen switches here where the switch was overheated at the stab.

Copper oxide is conductive, unlike aluminum.

 

[Max]

Copper oxide is conductive, unlike aluminum.

Point taken.

 

[4xdog]

..I am also making a breaker/light/outlet map at the same time...

What do your breaker/light/outlet maps look like, @Max? I've done several of those over the years and I've never really been happy with them. There's gotta be a better idea than my row-by-breaker and column-by-floor worksheet.

The version of your many-rats expression that I use is, "Bet on trends, not on long shots."

 

[Max]

What do your breaker/light/outlet maps look like, @Max? I've done several of those over the years and I've never really been happy with them. There's gotta be a better idea than my row-by-breaker and column-by-floor worksheet.

The version of your many-rats expression that I use is, "Bet on trends, not on long shots."

My house is wired kind of odd. Some rooms are what you’d expect - one breaker for outlets and lights on another. Other rooms have four breakers controlling the outlets, and two different breakers controlling different lights. So I don’t think that the normal panel labelling will work.

I am going just label the breaker panel with numbers. (Things like ACs, dryers, or subpanels will still get panel labels.) Then I’ll draw up each room in librecad that shows the lights and outlets as well as which breaker controls what. The drawings will be by the panel in a small folder. Not the easiest plan, but given what I have to work with it’s the best I think.

I may just kinda do a map of the room and list which things are on what breaker. Or I may do it more like an architectural drawing:


Mine would be much simpler than the above and just show electrical. I’ll have to note which breaker on each wiring arc as well…

 

[sparky 1971]

You’re an electrician and I’m not. Also from your prior posts I respect your opinion. And odds are the ground in that outlet will never be needed. But over time oxide will build up on the twisted wires and it may not always be a good connection. So I don’t know. But if it was a hot done that way - wrapped in some kind of super good heat shrink - would it still be ok? For me, I wouldn‘t like a hot that way, so I am fixing the grounds.

In general I think the NEC is a good code and it embodies the learnings of a lot of hard lessons. But it isn’t perfect. Some things I think the manufacturers slip in like AFCIs are of limited use. And I think backstabbing is only in there for high volume cheap wiring like subdivisions. All of the backstabbed outlets I’ve seen so far are ok, but previously I’ve replaced about half a dozen switches here where the switch was overheated at the stab.

Nothing is going to build up on copper. If it did, there would be some kind of oxide inhibitor in the wire nuts, like the nuts spec'd for aluminum. if left alone, those grounds will be fine 1000 years from now. I'm not going to state that is correct, because it isn't. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though. That's actually the way I was taught to do the grounds back in the early 1990's and it's the way a lot of the grounds are in my own home.