Opinion opn Brake lathe
- Thread starter john11139
- Start date
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Why would you want one. Old cars with solid cast rotors, ok. But anything made in the last 25 years or so with vented or composite rotors, turning them is false economy. I don't know how many just turned rotors I have replaced (on others cars) due to warping or hard/soft spots. They ended up with new rotors in just a short time anyways.
Schurkey
Well-known member
If you can stand the thought of Communist-sourced rotors, and you work on "ordinary" vehicles, a person would have to be nuts to buy a rotor lathe.
OTOH, if you work on elderly stuff where the parts are discontinued, or if you're allergic to giving money to the Damned Chinese, a disc lathe, silencer bands and pads, along with rotor mics, and the non-directional swirl flex-hones from BRM are the largely the only option.
Mine is an ancient Bear; and I think it needs some TLC as the rotor finish is too much like an old record album.
OTOH, if you work on elderly stuff where the parts are discontinued, or if you're allergic to giving money to the Damned Chinese, a disc lathe, silencer bands and pads, along with rotor mics, and the non-directional swirl flex-hones from BRM are the largely the only option.
Mine is an ancient Bear; and I think it needs some TLC as the rotor finish is too much like an old record album.
finn
Well-known member
Obsolete technology.
sberry
Banned
I know a couple space washers in local shops. But maybe there is a time and place for one though.
ken w.
Well-known member
I have an old drum lathe that I use to turn the new drums with. I find that a lot of new drums are out of round. If they are cheap and you feel a need for one , get it.
mopar440_6
Well-known member
I've got an FMC 601 that was used hard for a lot of years before it came to me. If it were my choice I'd probably go with the Ammco just for style points. The FMC worked great until the spindle got crashed and bent and it can be a bit cumbersome to use at times as far as the adjustments go. Not sure what I'm gonna do with it now. Might try to replace the spindle, might not. But it has saved me a good bit of money on replacement rotors. 9/10 times a rotor isn't actually "warped," it just has pad material deposited unevenly and the lathe works great to fix that...
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JJThrasher
Well-known member
I prefer the Ammco lathes myself. Plenty of cars today its perfectly feasible to cut rotors on. Some not so much. At work I buy new rotors about $10 each and then cut them straight since they're usually warped out of the box. Not the greatest solution, but I have found that rotors costing under $35 or so tend to be warped out of the box.
sberry
Banned
Why don't I have this problem?
WhiffySpark
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I've never once cut a new rotor or drum. Yet you constantly hear on this site from everyone that you need to
sberry
Banned
The stores I use would quit selling them if they were faulty. Wouldn't take more than a couple returns and they would be looking in to a different supplier.
goingtoarizona
Well-known member
Of those who criticize machining new rotors, who has actually machined rotors as a professional tech, or has direct experience?
JJThrasher
Well-known member
Tech here.
Retired government fleet tech here, very seldom we ever machined drums or rotors as they would get tossed and replaced with new.
jimindm
Well-known member
There are many that can be bought very cheap, and others get up there in price. I think even as thin as they are made, you can still get a turn or two out of them.
I can say that I certainly have taken drums out of the box and had them be bad. It happened one time on three separate vehicles, from three different parts suppliers.
I bought an ammco lathe at an auction this summer, works fine and has many attachments. Does both drum and disk. Do not use it often, but I am glad I have it when I can use it. For what I paid, I did not have to turn may before it became profitable.
I can say that I certainly have taken drums out of the box and had them be bad. It happened one time on three separate vehicles, from three different parts suppliers.
I bought an ammco lathe at an auction this summer, works fine and has many attachments. Does both drum and disk. Do not use it often, but I am glad I have it when I can use it. For what I paid, I did not have to turn may before it became profitable.
Schurkey
Well-known member
I've cut hundreds of rotors professionally. We cut every drum or rotor from every brake job--unless measuring them proved they were worn too far.
The drum/rotor lathe I own is the one I used years ago. That said...I think there's some undiagnosed problem with it because the rotor section leaves too-rough a finish.
Cutting brand new drums/rotors? Yes, we used to do that. I am not convinced that it was necessary. OTOH, this was 1990. It's not like I can go back and mount 'n' measure those rotors again. The boss wanted it done; the rotors and drums generally did not cut evenly. But did they not cut evenly because they were genuinely warped, or because the lathe--or the mounting of the drum/rotor to the lathe--was faulty?
The drum/rotor lathe I own is the one I used years ago. That said...I think there's some undiagnosed problem with it because the rotor section leaves too-rough a finish.
Cutting brand new drums/rotors? Yes, we used to do that. I am not convinced that it was necessary. OTOH, this was 1990. It's not like I can go back and mount 'n' measure those rotors again. The boss wanted it done; the rotors and drums generally did not cut evenly. But did they not cut evenly because they were genuinely warped, or because the lathe--or the mounting of the drum/rotor to the lathe--was faulty?
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Beenman
Well-known member
Yup.
I have to add though, its race products so the rotors are fairly costly to start off with, which makes the financial decision easier.
WhiffySpark
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Everyday
I turn front rotors if they're above spec and not pulsating. Same for rear
If they're below spec or pulsating you get new rotors. European cars and non vented rotors get replaced as well
3 Gun Shooter
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I used Ammco's and FMC's, the Ammco is a better lathe. Only advantage the FMC has is it uses tapered bearing for the spindle like a real lathe over bushings. The Ammco bushings do last pretty good and aren't bad to replace. At least the Ammco has factory support for parts, I'M not sure about the FMC.
Falcon67
Well-known member
I used to run an Ammco when I worked parts, loved it. Always wanted one. But the local store will cut a rotor or drum for $10, so I'd need to do a lot before it'd make any sense to own one, unless it was a gimme. In the last 6 years I've maybe had 4 rotors turned.
sberry
Banned
It would have to be a gimme too and I would have to think about it then. **** I replace is ruined anyway or worn out and replacement is so much easier and as cheap, don't want to stop what I am doing and coordinate that speculative venture if I could toss 10$ at them.
Brake parts are quite competitive. Parts stores don't keep rod bearings on the shelf anymore but they got brakes 3 deep and 3 different offerings in the economy. My guy said they make a cheaper rotor than they stock by a few dollars but its no good, they will probably order anything but this is what shops use when they are asked for a quote, white box says rotor on it. You could slap any sticker or stamp you wanted on it.
Its a tool with a hi investment, lot of work with little return. A hobby is one thing but don't make new car payment plans from big buck from it. Buy once, walk around it forever. I know a couple piled hi with **** and I asked my bud at one point, when the last time you used it and he couldn't remember. Be free space if he called the scrap man and moved that pain in the *** out of the way.
Brake parts are quite competitive. Parts stores don't keep rod bearings on the shelf anymore but they got brakes 3 deep and 3 different offerings in the economy. My guy said they make a cheaper rotor than they stock by a few dollars but its no good, they will probably order anything but this is what shops use when they are asked for a quote, white box says rotor on it. You could slap any sticker or stamp you wanted on it.
Its a tool with a hi investment, lot of work with little return. A hobby is one thing but don't make new car payment plans from big buck from it. Buy once, walk around it forever. I know a couple piled hi with **** and I asked my bud at one point, when the last time you used it and he couldn't remember. Be free space if he called the scrap man and moved that pain in the *** out of the way.
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chris142
Well-known member
We bought a brake lathe to fix the new rotors. Seems like all new ones still need to be cut right out of the box. Napa seems to be the worst! You would be amazed at the weird cuts new rotors have on them right from china.
I always clean the surfaces and hand tq the lug nuts to spec but we were constantly getting new warped or cut weird rotors right out of the box.
I always clean the surfaces and hand tq the lug nuts to spec but we were constantly getting new warped or cut weird rotors right out of the box.
The reason I was thinking about getting one is this. I owned a auto repair shop for over 25 years. Retired. I had a ammco and a Van Norman to turn semi truck drums. They more than paid for themselves and made money. I just couldn't see keeping it to do my own if ever needed. And the space they took up. So sold them. My son started a under car repair about 7 years ago. Does quite a bit brake work. I asked why he didn't buy a lathe. He said it was more productive to buy new rotors. And he didn't have the cash to get one. I was talking to him and told him how much time it might save if he just turned them instead of waiting for them to be delivered. He said a local parts will turn them for $12 ea. I was looking at his scrap rotor pile and a lot of them could be turned, and were hardly worn. So here is my thought and the offer I made him. I said I could take $1,500 out of my savings. Buy a good brake lathe. Interest I receive on that a year is about $7. He could charge $12 a rotor. Give me $6 for every rotor turned. He could keep $6 and would speed up production by not waiting on parts and if the rotor was bad just buy a new one. So that is why I was asking about the FMC. I had a Ammco and no complaints. I see a few FMC, John Beam around pretty reasonable, Ammco bring a premium.
sberry
Banned
So he has to give up 50% on each one right off plus do the labor to save 1/2 what he could mark up a new part for?
RWorth
Well-known member
I have a van norman lathe and always turn rotors and drums, even new out of the box. And I was a mechanic before Tech's.
Oh and just my oppinion, Mechanics repair when possible, I guess Techs, just R&R.
Oh and just my oppinion, Mechanics repair when possible, I guess Techs, just R&R.
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WhiffySpark
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That makes no sense from a business stand point. How do you know they could be turned? Did you mic them?
sberry
Banned
A pile of rotors may look like a lot but it will take a long time to add up since so many will be goners. 250 of them. I had 2 in the last 10 years worth turning and they didn't need it.
WhiffySpark
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- Oct 22, 2009
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It takes 15 minutes per axle to do a brake job with rotors. Charge 3 hours usually plus an hour for flush. If you turn all the rotors you're looking at at least what 10 minutes per rotor to cut? That adds up. Not to mention the mark up on the rotors generally 3x depending on cost.
Brake lathes seem to be a thing of the past. The last shop I was at didn't have one either. This one does but it's a billion dollar chain
Brake lathes seem to be a thing of the past. The last shop I was at didn't have one either. This one does but it's a billion dollar chain
sberry
Banned
There is a reason. Son may have a better grip than Dad here. As whiffy point out there is time to it and that is is everything goes right, if you are fast and trying to beat a clock, now its after lunch and a guy has to take a pee and a job doesn't get done because we standing around fiddling with a lather to see if we can miser a rotor.
Back in the day this was a good idea but you are retired and he is just starting. Buy him something he needs today, he already doesn't have the cash for it which is a rather small investment in the scheme of things.
The upside would be that he doesn't have to pay you unless he does one. You are not saddling him with a debt but the learning curve is so hi in this business that time consumers and keeping a drag to a minimum help a lot.
I only do a little side work, don't really sell any parts and have a hi labor rate and fix a lot of stuff vs replacement, know when I can do it with a set of pads, its a different game. But if he is in this business he needs to focus on sales first, you have some experience, help him build a clientele and weed out pitiful customers before he gets ground down trying to save a rotor, as the Whiff pointed out, none of them got these anymore and with good reason. Only ones do are broke and limping.
Back in the day this was a good idea but you are retired and he is just starting. Buy him something he needs today, he already doesn't have the cash for it which is a rather small investment in the scheme of things.
The upside would be that he doesn't have to pay you unless he does one. You are not saddling him with a debt but the learning curve is so hi in this business that time consumers and keeping a drag to a minimum help a lot.
I only do a little side work, don't really sell any parts and have a hi labor rate and fix a lot of stuff vs replacement, know when I can do it with a set of pads, its a different game. But if he is in this business he needs to focus on sales first, you have some experience, help him build a clientele and weed out pitiful customers before he gets ground down trying to save a rotor, as the Whiff pointed out, none of them got these anymore and with good reason. Only ones do are broke and limping.
sberry
Banned
This means not trying to get all the work you can but good work and this means customers that can pay for it. I soothe mine thru it and they get value as it works without tossing a whole pile of parts at something every chance we can.
People diag their own cars, call around for pricing, all kinds of stuff. Mine will ask how much are shocks? I say,,, bring it first. You didn't need a shock but a bushing. Now they know, most never even ask and trust when I charge them 50 for something I did it and they needed it.
I actually charge for that. I got a couple wants oil changes so it drives them in but when I do one get 75 for it, maybe more if I find something during this "oil change" which is really a service which includes tire off brake inspection making sure they work rotation, any grease to replacement parts, checking lights, air in tires, wipers all of it.
I do some repair I can mark up to drive the bill a bit to make it worth spending a couple hrs doddering and fuzzing on their car for 100$ and l8ike to send them on their way with confidence they don't need work or even estimate it for future.
I just did a brake job I quoted 2 years ago during service, I serviced it again now along with the job, they knew this before they brought it over and handed me half the job in cash without asking and said they would pay the balance when done and never did ask for an estimate.
Point being, my best Bud did this, worked out of his garage, was never sued but it took him a while to learn you don't have to do everything for everyone. I had a job scheduled from someone I somewhat knew and give a benefit of doubt to. It was a referral and most auto places are not equipped to do it, a welding type thing and its something I am good at.
So,,, I saw it before, he brings it on the time and I ready to roll up my sleeves and figure I will clear a couple hundred right here and he says,,,, well can I pay with a long story.
I was nice about it but just stopped my thought and gave him the bums rush right on out, when you get the dough bring it back. It was a wreck and seen it on the road the other day. But I wasn't wanting to dirty up for half a day and then chase a payment down. I would even took a labor trade but really too stupid for that and the only thing dumber on my behalf would have been to do it.
I have let work go, got a couple still havnt paid and what double ***** is they were a good deal in comparison. But with cars they walk away with your parts money too and it adds up and as my Bud said, I made 2x as much when I learned to work 1/2 as hard. Instead of greasing 12 hrs a day changing engines and **** like that took a front brake job on an American car and was done and in the house by 2 300$ in his pocket and it was gone.
I did engine work when I was a sprout and took me a while to learn I was picking on stuff took a long time and a lot of layout and sho9uld have been chasing brake fixes for 100$.
2nd, if he needs a helper h9ire a helper and not other mechanics, find someone to do chores part time and even manage a little paper work if you have to, a guy Friday type can run errands and figure how to build it in the price. I take advantage of delivery, also people I got drive right by a store, its a cold day before I go for a part. Also internet shop, brakes are competitive over the counter but lotso other items are not. I will order something and mark it up a few dollars to the store price, not robbing the customer and adding a shave. I add a few dollars for supplies, I don't always itemize it in my system but I consider it. On a major job no one thinga anything for a couple grinding wheels at 5 a piece, they don't know what kind they were or care. The hospital does this, brought a half a can of stuff and charged 55$ for a new one and its 5 from Walmart. If I spray some paint on it I charge for a can. To a hobby type its not worth detailed itemization but it adds a shave vs being a drag.
People diag their own cars, call around for pricing, all kinds of stuff. Mine will ask how much are shocks? I say,,, bring it first. You didn't need a shock but a bushing. Now they know, most never even ask and trust when I charge them 50 for something I did it and they needed it.
I actually charge for that. I got a couple wants oil changes so it drives them in but when I do one get 75 for it, maybe more if I find something during this "oil change" which is really a service which includes tire off brake inspection making sure they work rotation, any grease to replacement parts, checking lights, air in tires, wipers all of it.
I do some repair I can mark up to drive the bill a bit to make it worth spending a couple hrs doddering and fuzzing on their car for 100$ and l8ike to send them on their way with confidence they don't need work or even estimate it for future.
I just did a brake job I quoted 2 years ago during service, I serviced it again now along with the job, they knew this before they brought it over and handed me half the job in cash without asking and said they would pay the balance when done and never did ask for an estimate.
Point being, my best Bud did this, worked out of his garage, was never sued but it took him a while to learn you don't have to do everything for everyone. I had a job scheduled from someone I somewhat knew and give a benefit of doubt to. It was a referral and most auto places are not equipped to do it, a welding type thing and its something I am good at.
So,,, I saw it before, he brings it on the time and I ready to roll up my sleeves and figure I will clear a couple hundred right here and he says,,,, well can I pay with a long story.
I was nice about it but just stopped my thought and gave him the bums rush right on out, when you get the dough bring it back. It was a wreck and seen it on the road the other day. But I wasn't wanting to dirty up for half a day and then chase a payment down. I would even took a labor trade but really too stupid for that and the only thing dumber on my behalf would have been to do it.
I have let work go, got a couple still havnt paid and what double ***** is they were a good deal in comparison. But with cars they walk away with your parts money too and it adds up and as my Bud said, I made 2x as much when I learned to work 1/2 as hard. Instead of greasing 12 hrs a day changing engines and **** like that took a front brake job on an American car and was done and in the house by 2 300$ in his pocket and it was gone.
I did engine work when I was a sprout and took me a while to learn I was picking on stuff took a long time and a lot of layout and sho9uld have been chasing brake fixes for 100$.
2nd, if he needs a helper h9ire a helper and not other mechanics, find someone to do chores part time and even manage a little paper work if you have to, a guy Friday type can run errands and figure how to build it in the price. I take advantage of delivery, also people I got drive right by a store, its a cold day before I go for a part. Also internet shop, brakes are competitive over the counter but lotso other items are not. I will order something and mark it up a few dollars to the store price, not robbing the customer and adding a shave. I add a few dollars for supplies, I don't always itemize it in my system but I consider it. On a major job no one thinga anything for a couple grinding wheels at 5 a piece, they don't know what kind they were or care. The hospital does this, brought a half a can of stuff and charged 55$ for a new one and its 5 from Walmart. If I spray some paint on it I charge for a can. To a hobby type its not worth detailed itemization but it adds a shave vs being a drag.
Al Bundy
Well-known member
I bought a Snap On (Kwik Way) at an auction for $200. Best money I'd spent in a long time.
gnpenning
Well-known member
The original question here has been forgotten or ignored.
While many good thoughts but not what was asked. I don't understand why many insist on making noise but can't answer the question????
I've only used Bear's so I can't answer.
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sberry
Banned
Wait for one at 200$, would be faster and easier to make the 1200 juice between the 2, 200 less rotors to turn to break even.
sberry
Banned
This is why. Actually you answered it withinb a question and there are guys with experience between ther 2 units that did amswer and that would have been that.
I can spottem over threads in some cases but lets take this for what its worth and give some value added advice to the question thru some current collective experience.
I done this every way wrong a guy can. This is not a deal breaker but may continue a path that can be slow and painful. I wouldn't buy someone something they didn't want and if this is a happy father dad deal then Jr was being nice and saying I cant afford it and don't really want it.
That's just the start, then the math not including space and more clutter to work around something so slow and tedious is 50 years too late. More so 2x in the last 10 years as inventory and supply have taken another leap where its on the shelf and fast, and cheap, a little shopping and a shop can save 10 a rotor and pocket the difference to net 20 on each one in a markup without fukking the customer.
This is on every one and not saving 10 a piece on a few that are already close to junk. If that's the deal put a pad on and drive it.
sberry
Banned
The Dad may mean well and g have good intentions but there is a difference on semi of old and cars of today, it was a good idea and a tool had to have at the beginning of dads career, its a loser 7 years in to the sons.
Buy him a new impact.
Buy him a new impact.
sberry
Banned
Look more carefully. At the beginning of my career I would have said I needed a real drill press and while it would be cool to have a mill and lathe I don't miss it. 30 yrs ago I had to have a piece here and there done, today almost never and I don't want that stuff and another whole layer of collected specialized **** and the shavings.
My neighbor has it all, a mile away and does it for me for free and I havnt been there in a year and that was for some production woodwork where he had the stock and an hour to cut it all.
There is a place for it but it aint auto work and even general maintenance anymore where I can drill a one off hole or 2 in an inch plate with a battery drill. I got a **** drill press my tech has used a handful of times for fiddle **** in the last couple years.
Don't get a valve grinder either. None of that **** anymore. A hoist, air comp, impact, torch, small wire feeder but have seen guys make it without that, 4 1/2 grinder, good battery drill and a sawzall. Couple of floor jacks and some blocks and maybe an engine hoist.
If I was a nuts and bolts guy would forget about most anything with a fluid in it. Some tires, suspension, ujoints, clutches, shock and strut with ready mades, all straight forward predictable stuff.
Now, that may not apply to wise *** "tech types" going to work for other people in other shops "flagging hours" but there is work to go around witout fiddling with stuff drains time taking basket cases. In and out, stuff a guy could complete in a day.
Maybe he has a specialty, lets say its AC or brakes, spend all the marketing effort on that and you can do other work but McDonalds lost a lot of money advertising fish sammiches.
It may be har4d to turn down work if you are not busy but sometimes its worth it. I wouldn't put a used junk yard ****** and engine in for the mos6t part, all that stuff is a headache. Its one thing to fix a problem with something but rebuilding could be another matter unless a guy really has the poop and its a hard sell.
My neighbor has it all, a mile away and does it for me for free and I havnt been there in a year and that was for some production woodwork where he had the stock and an hour to cut it all.
There is a place for it but it aint auto work and even general maintenance anymore where I can drill a one off hole or 2 in an inch plate with a battery drill. I got a **** drill press my tech has used a handful of times for fiddle **** in the last couple years.
Don't get a valve grinder either. None of that **** anymore. A hoist, air comp, impact, torch, small wire feeder but have seen guys make it without that, 4 1/2 grinder, good battery drill and a sawzall. Couple of floor jacks and some blocks and maybe an engine hoist.
If I was a nuts and bolts guy would forget about most anything with a fluid in it. Some tires, suspension, ujoints, clutches, shock and strut with ready mades, all straight forward predictable stuff.
Now, that may not apply to wise *** "tech types" going to work for other people in other shops "flagging hours" but there is work to go around witout fiddling with stuff drains time taking basket cases. In and out, stuff a guy could complete in a day.
Maybe he has a specialty, lets say its AC or brakes, spend all the marketing effort on that and you can do other work but McDonalds lost a lot of money advertising fish sammiches.
It may be har4d to turn down work if you are not busy but sometimes its worth it. I wouldn't put a used junk yard ****** and engine in for the mos6t part, all that stuff is a headache. Its one thing to fix a problem with something but rebuilding could be another matter unless a guy really has the poop and its a hard sell.
sberry
Banned
Muffler biz is a bit like that. A guy can make 200 $ on parts and another 50 he prices and can hand to the installer. You priced parts form the store and it was 200 anyway so the 50 doesn't sound too bad to put it on, the owner bought the parts for 75 and paid installer 30. Made 175 before it ever hit the hoist.