Opinions wanted on tooling up

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Guys, a new toy followed me home on Friday but it looks like I will need to get some help getting it off the back of the truck. Once it is on the floor where it needs to be, I will start ordering up some tooling for it. For now I was planning on getting a set of R8 collets (12 by 1/16ths from 1/8 to 3/4 plus 7/8), a holder for the collets, a Albrecht chuck (the one in the machine is borrowed), a Kurt milling vise, clamps, air cooler (rather use that than coolant) and some basic tooling.

Any suggestions on whether to use a keyless chuck or not (can come loose power tapping) and which vise to get (size and type) as well as basic tools (end mills, fly cutter, boring bar, clamp plates, etc)?

It is Taiwan made but then again, it didn't cost an arm and a leg and I'm not a machinist...

That poor old truck went down to the overload springs and then some coming home.

Also picked up this chinese arbor press but it should do OK for what I need. Don't know the capacity but I bet it's more than a couple of tons.....

The rumors of the sanitary shop in Georgia are NOT true. This was tonight after dragging out the welder and putting the neighbors bush hog back together. I have GOT to clean this place up. It took me 10 minutes to find another helmet for him to watch.

 

[Primered Thunder]

raise that lift up ... fashion up a cross bar ... back the truck under the lift ... pick up the knee mill ... pull truck out from under it.

I wouldn't go with anything larger than a 6" Kurt vise.

Buy a keyed Jacobs chuck.

Don't worry about coolant, just brush on oil as you cut, drill, tap, etc.

 

[metaleltr]

Talk about a serious shop, do i spy 3 engine hoists?

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

The lift won't go high enough to get the lift eye or under the head. A forklift will be here tomorrow to help out but I also need to make room somewhere for it.

Yes, three hoists for now but I am giving my neighbor one of them when he gets his shop built.

 

[Griff93]

I'd go ahead and get a decent indicator. You'll need it for tramming the head and the vise. A Coaxial indicator is really handy for centering parts to the spindle. What do you have end mill wise? I'd get a good 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, and 3/4 to start with. Keep in mind 2 flutes work much better for aluminum. I'd also pick up an edge finder and a center finder. The edge finder is handy for locating from the side of parts. The center finder can be used to locate holes that are already center punched. It's also handy for smaller existing holes and slots. You'll find the need for a set of parallels for use in the vise to get workpieces up where you won't hit the vise. Be aware that you may spend more on tooling and measuring equipment then you did on the mill.

If you pick up the mill with a forklift, make sure to put some pieces of wood between the forks and the dovetail to keep it from sliding. It wouldn't hurt to put a strap around the mill to make sure it can't slide off the end of the forks in case someone tilts the wrong way or something.

 

[Primered Thunder]

... turn that ram back over the table ... turn head upside down ... lower the knee to lower the CG.

 

[IndyGarage]

Get the Enco or KBC big catalog and open a line of credit with them. Reasonable prices and they have everything. I also buy some China made stuff from CDCO machinery in Chicago.

6 inch vise - Kurt is good, I have a Wilton and a yuasa brand. You can find good used ones.

Get some parallels to go in the vise.

I have a china made tilting vise that is surprisingly useful on the mill

Buy the cheap clamping kit, but spend some money on really good drill bits.

Also buy a set of v blocks. I have a couple of what they call a toolmakers vblock and calmp; A set of 1 2 3 blocks would be good.


Boring head. Drill chuck. set of transfer punches; deburring tools.

I got a used bridgeport rotary table that I use very rarely, but it gets me out of a jam sometimes.

I have a ton of mill cutters, toolholders and collets that I've picked up used, but to be honest I use about 3 or 4 of them about 90% of the time.

 

[lilscorpion]

I bought a set of r8 collets out of the gate and haven't used them much. I'd recommend an ER16 and maybe either an ER 25 or ER 32 collet set for bigger cutters (import on eBay as cheap as you can find). Easier to get in and out with a manual drawbar and your one freehand. If your patient, you can get really good deals direct from the MFG in Hong Kong.

Second, I'd get a cheap import keyless chuck ($40 shipped on eBay with R8 arbor). I got this one and it works great.

Save up for keyed in the size you need when you get that far. I have all kinds and qualities of tooling for my mill and the cheap stuff works great (ROI comes quick) and I have plenty of production time in on my mill in the black. My first cheap chuck still works as well as the day I took it out of the box 14+ years ago and I tap plenty. I went looking and i still have most of my first set from Harbor Freight like this one. Yep, China. 5/8 and sharpened quite a few times. Learn to sharpen drill bits. One cheap silver and demming import set can last quite a while and cover bigger holes from 9/16 - 1 1/8 if you can get the feed rate right.

Visit auctions. Many have lots of drill bits you can get smoking prices on. In denver i scored this drawer full of bits for around $75 (no ****). Every size from dental floss to 1/2 inch. Gotta be persistent though, went to many auctions with no take home.

I saved up for a Kert vise but an import would have worked just fine in hind sight. You'll want a set of parallels for it too. Get an import set of hold down clamps (Enco brand is cheap). Hard to tell in the catalogs but two sets fills a drawer. I probably only really needed one set in hind sight. Gonna need them for you vise and fixtures.

Tooling like face mills, boring heads, tapping heads, slitting saws, shell mills, etc are all an acquired taste. I see them in every shop but never in the machine. I have all of them and they spend most of their time on the shelf. When you find a need, you'll spend the money and it will be worth it. Until that time you can figure another way to get it done. Tool stands and racks can be made with simple hand tools. Don't waste your money there. Something simple like this is easy to build and can be adapted easily to your tooling as it expands.

Well, hope that helps. Tooling may be the most expensive part of your new machine.

 

[lilscorpion]

To illustrate my point, I looked up the auction house where I used to frequent. At a auction a couple of weeks ago, this box of drill bits went for 19.66 (plus a ~30% auction fee). I would have paid double (chuckle). Deals are out there waiting to be had.

 

[almost]

On collets or end mill holders, 3/16, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 will take you up to 1 1/2 end mills. The other 6 sizes very rarely used. Most everything else is dependent on type of work and size. 6" Kurt type vise is most popular size. Generally import tools are fair, its import cutting tools that tend to ****. One system is to buy the import set to have all the sizes (taps, drills, end mills) then replace the ones you use with USA or quality import.

 

[Kevin54]

When I got my mill, I ordered a setup kit from Enco. It came with the 6 or 7 of the most commonly used R8 collets, a clamping set consisting of the different size of step blocks along with different lengths of studs and nuts, and a 6" Kurt knockoff vise. Here is the set that I picked up @ $169, http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?...NO=330&PMKBNO=2844&PMPAGE=42&PARTPG=INLMPIThe vise is a knockoff of a Kurt but looks as well as a Kurt. The only thing I see that may be different is the mounting hole diameters for the two jaws. Other than that, everything looks great. And not a bad deal for the money. A 6" Kurt will run you twice that amount.

 

[toolchaser]

Lil Scorpion is right about the collet holder a ER 32 or ER40 is a lot easier to deal with than R8 simply because you arent dealling with the drawbar every tool change. Get a 3" face mill or flycutter for surfacing work, and either a Kurt, Chick, Parlec, or Glacern Machine Tool vise

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Guys, thanks for all the help and suggestions. I did pick up an unused Blake Manufactoring Coaxial indicator off of craigslist today on the cheap and should get a cheap clamp set tomorrow (again from craigslist), and have ordered a set of R8 collets to start with, a 6" Kurt vise, an Albrecht keyless chuck, a R8 to tapered adapter for my keyed Jacobs Chuck and some basic tooling (end mills). I also added a set of parallels and a flycutter but I am still looking at an edge finder and a center finder.

Hopefully I will be making chips in a week or so. Either that or I will be making expensive pieces out of expensive tooling..

 

[Kevin54]

Guys, thanks for all the help and suggestions. I did pick up an unused Blake Manufactoring Coaxial indicator off of craigslist today on the cheap and should get a cheap clamp set tomorrow (again from craigslist), and have ordered a set of R8 collets to start with, a 6" Kurt vise, an Albrecht keyless chuck, a R8 to tapered adapter for my keyed Jacobs Chuck and some basic tooling (end mills). I also added a set of parallels and a flycutter but I am still looking at an edge finder and a center finder.

Hopefully I will be making chips in a week or so. Either that or I will be making expensive pieces out of expensive tooling..

General makes as good as any. What you want to do though is get one in a 3/8" dia. and one in a 1/2" dia.

The 3/8" dia. will come with two size of tips .200 or a .250. Whichever one you buy, and buy what will be the easiest for you to remember, always buy that size if you ever buy again in the future. If you don't, guaranteed you will screw up a part your working on.

Reason being, when you use an edge finder, you'll be doing the math in your head automatically as you have to move one half the diameter of the edge finder. Personally, I like the .200 tip because it's way easier to subtract .100 instead of .125.

The .500 dia. edge finder had a .500 dia. shank along with the tip the same size. These are handy if you are trying to find the center of a large diameter piece. With a small tip finder you can get down to the center. With a large .500 you can.

I've never had good luck with a center finder. The type that is made the same as an edge finder. I always preferred using a drill blank ground to a real sharp point and using a magnifier to pick up a point on the part. Way easier to do and I find it way quicker.

Goergia, this is in now way directed to you, but to others that may want to start machining, when it comes to end mills, shop around. They come in so many prices that it will make your head spin. If you watch what you are doing and what you are cutting, that $3.00 end mill will last as long as a $30 end mill. For aluminum, if you want to make great cuts, never use a four flute inside of aluminum, always use it on the outside. Using it on the inside, it will pick up chips that it has already cut along with new chips it's making and next thing you know, your flutes are galled up with aluminum. For a real kickass cutter get a 2 flute hi helix carbide. Expensive, but well worth it. One of those will be your go to cutter dor any aluminum.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

And on top of all that......nice truck

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Kevin,

No problem on the tooling tips but I do have a bit of an advantage, the guy I got the mill from is about 100 feet from the back door of my work. He and the guys working for him are great and don't mind helping an idiot out with a quick "how to" session. He helped out with picking the end mills for both steel and aluminum and said he would help me when it comes time to sharpen them.

 

[cnc-me]

Looks like you guys have it covered quite well.
One item that I would get, is some sort of indexable end mill.
These are great when you have to mill parts that have been welded on, or you don't
know what type of steel the part was made from.
Its also nice that you can have a sharp cutter anytime you want, just by changing
the inserts. I have also noticed that my nice HSS end mills stay sharper longer
since I got the indexable tooling, if you know what I mean.

 

[toolchaser]

Curtis Payne at Lathe inserts.com has been a great source for me for indexable mills and lathe tooling. He used to be a Kenna rep but went independent, good guy to deal with, also check out Mari tool

 

[Kevin54]

Georgia....One other item you will need to get is a boring head and an assortment of boring bars. You don't need to buy a complete set like this, but keep an eye on CL for someone selling machinist tools. You can pick up a 3/8" or 1/2" boring head rather reasonable.

 

[EdT]

A few thoughts:
1) Especially on a "mature" machine like that appears to be, I'd put a DRO for, at least, the X and Y axis. This really makes the job simpler with less-than-perfect lead screws.
2) Get a decent vise. I started out with a no-name "import" vise that I spent $90 for. I later picked up a KURT for $75 at an auction and it is a lot better. That said, a cheapo is way better than nothing.
3) I adopted a tooling philosophy of getting what I needed as I determined a need for it rather than just making a big list of things that I or someone thought I had to have. In this way I avoided getting a bunch of stuff I really didn't need.
4) Since you're probably doing this for fun, cut slower than the MAX possible. You won't melt as many tools or break stuff.
5) get a power feed for the x axis.

 

[toolchaser]

+1 on EdT's comments I got a DRO from CDCO for my Index mill, easy to mount, I wish I would have done it sooner. Even though I have CNC, sometimes a job ( esp. repair work) is quicker on a manual