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Options for small 240V portable generators?

Ole Slewfoot

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My champion 3500/4000 is going on maybe 8 years, and all I've done is change the oil.
It hates my Miller 135, but runs 240 roof ACs no problem. The pull string is cheesy, but mine has held so far.
Every Chinese clone generator 'company' has one in this bracket.
The Honda EM4000 does 240, A Chinese Diesel is probably cheaper, and will burn less cheaper fuel.
You don't need an inverter generator to get idle down control.
 
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mike93lx

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My champion 3500/4000 is going on maybe 8 years, and all I've done is change the oil.
It hates my Miller 135, but runs 240 roof ACs no problem. The pull string is cheesy, but mine has held so far.
Every Chinese clone generator 'company' has one in this bracket.
The Honda EM4000 does 240, A Chinese Diesel is probably cheaper, and will burn less cheaper fuel.
You don't need an inverter generator to get idle down control.

Sure, it can idle down, but not under load if I am not mistaken. The difference is an inverter can run at a lower rpm even under load as it only produces dc at the motor
 

TheEquineFencer

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Jason, that's a great idea about getting a spare carb. I actually plan to do an immediate conversion to propane to avoid the carb fouling, plus storing propane is a lot easier for me than having fresh gas on hand for emergencies.

The 240V / 4000W model that Costco had last year was dual-fuel, so I'm a bit ticked that I didn't get it before it disappeared from the website. Maybe they'll get it back soon though.

If you do that, you will have a useless POS for what you want to do. You can figure to derate about 20% for LPG! Go back to Champions website and look at the dual fuel generators for Gas/LPG and look at the ratings.

Also keep in mind, they are only 3500W if they will actually pull nameplate ratings. From personal experiences, the only ones I've ever seen pull rated were Onan, Honda and a very few others. Even those when put at nameplate rating loads will trip the breaker as they are being run at 100%, just like trying to run a 30A breaker at 100%. You should not run a breaker at 100%, just load it to 80% max. That's also being run with a pure resistive load, not an inductive (motor) or capacitive load, (Check Power Factor). Most Coleman Powermate brand generators will not pull rated right out of the box, after a little "tweaking on the governor" they "usually" can just barely make rated as the generators are under powered. Onan used to sell a Pro Series, they were rebadged generators with Onan engines, they would always pull rated, they had 14.5 HP engines where others had 8 - 10HP engines. You get what you pay for.

From personal experiences, keep in mind I go to Hurricanes and storms and repower cell sites, I just got back from Puerto Rico working that storm, and saw people trying to do exactly what you want to do. A 3500W generator will not last long even if it does actually start the load you want to run. Running a generator at or near 100% load is not a good idea for extended periods.

LOL, I fixed a Rigid Brand generator for the guard at the gate of our compound. It was a 3250W rated and they ran it at Rated from the looks of it. The Rotor slip rings looked like hell, the brushes were shot and the regulator finally crapped out on them...It'd been running for a week or so...it'd trip the breaker, they'd remove the load, restart it, and step the load back to keep the lights and frig running.

In a bind, I'll take our 3500W and "run the house", meaning I'll power the frig and the TV and lights, we use LED bulbs for lighting. And even doing that I don't feel real good about it using a 3500W generator. But I keep an eye on the Hz and Voltage and monitor the amp load most of the time. But then again, we seldom loose power for an extended time. When the tornado came through I borrowed a 5K Honda until I could dig my 5K Onan out of the shop to run the place. After the tornado, the house had power but the shop didn't. I used the 5K to power the shop for extended runs as it was rebuilt.

IMO, a 3500W generator is good for short run times with light loads, such as a frig and some lights, that's it. But it's you party, invite what you want. A lot of people on here have a LOT of experiences doing or trying to do what you want to do. Go ahead and get a 3500W and try it. It's cheaper to learn from others mistakes. But having a "spare" 3500W does have an upside, so try it. We'd like to see how it turns out.
 

EOC_Jason

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The 240V / 4000W model that Costco had last year was dual-fuel, so I'm a bit ticked that I didn't get it before it disappeared from the website. Maybe they'll get it back soon though.

Generator stock is usually seasonal... Down south they are in the summer, up north they are in the Winter... Sam's Club always comes out with 1 model generator on display every year, I'm sure Costco will too if you are patient...

You don't need an inverter generator to get idle down control.

Sure, it can idle down, but not under load if I am not mistaken. The difference is an inverter can run at a lower rpm even under load as it only produces dc at the motor

^^^ I've only seen a *couple* non-inverter generators with idle-down, but that is only under no-load scenarios. Like Mike said, it's how the inverter vs traditional work. A traditional generator requires a fixed RPM to produce the correct voltage/frequency, and since the gen is directly connected to the engine, the engine RPM must stay at that fixed rate too...

I got my little gen in case of power outages in winter. I'm all natural gas so really only need it to power the furnace & fridge... Worst case I can always light my gas fireplace and stick my food outside... lol.

Question, you said you plan on converting to LPG... How big of a tank do you have, or plan on having?
 

mike93lx

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Question, you said you plan on converting to LPG... How big of a tank do you have, or plan on having?

I run a 40lb cylinder and it will still freeze up if it is cold out. A 20lb won't work very well, I don't think, plus it is only ~4-4.5 gal of propane.

If it is needed for lomg run times, a 100lb tank is worth it, assuming you can handle it to get it filled
 

TheEquineFencer

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I run a 40lb cylinder and it will still freeze up if it is cold out. A 20lb won't work very well, I don't think, plus it is only ~4-4.5 gal of propane.

If it is needed for lomg run times, a 100lb tank is worth it, assuming you can handle it to get it filled

I did a start up on a large (155 KW) Onan a long time ago. LOL, it had multiple problems. I was asked to leave once from that site because I let my mouth over my brain, I told the installer he "didn't know what the F&%$ he was doing." 1/2 inch vapor line from the tank to about a 2 inch line at the generator. It was an underground tank, I had no idea of the tank layout. Turns out it was an upright tank. They up-sized the regulator and line, it would barely run w/o load. On the third try they got it right. They replaced the tank AND lines!

For a proper LPG vapor system, you need not only enough LPG tank size, but also enough SURFACE area for the LPG to go from vapor to gas inside the tank. Onan has a TO30 manual that covers this, it's a free download. Another note, the colder it get's the less BTU LPG has. Buried/insulated tanks are a good thing in cold weather. The light towers the company I was working for in Raleigh sells LPG/Gas dual fuel generators in the light towers. If they go up north they get insulated tank covers.
 
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mike93lx

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If it is cold out, I just point the exhaust at the tank which is a few feet away. It works well enough. If I needed it a lot, I'd look into hooking into my nat gas service
 

Bretny

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If pointing your exhaust thats a few feet away at the propane tank works its not that cold out or not windy...and your tank is still to small.
Look up propane vaporization charts for your size tank. Going from 20lb to 40lb dosnt give you 2x the btu/hr.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=cvWGX61KvprmeM:

For instance a 5kw generator needs 50kbtu at 50 percent load. A 20lb tank will not vaporize that much propane for very long at all. Even a 40lb cylinder will only produce 40kbtu at 25 percent full. Unless you like having a bunch of half full propane tanks you will need to manifold many together. Propane is nice and convenient but please do some research on what draw backs it really has.

http://www.propane-generators.com/propane_usage.php

I did a bunch of research on buying a new portablr propane generator about 2 yrs ago...i now own a DIESEL!
 

Falcon67

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I have a Champion 3500 watt purchased at Tractor Supply. Spec plate on the generator states, and I quote,


Model 46598
60 HZ
single phase
Power Ratio 1.0
120/240 volts
amps 29.2/14.6
AC watts 3500

If that is the normal 3500/4000 unit that TSC carries, it's a 120V 30A genset. Had one, it's not 240V. Look at the plugs - 30A twist lock, 30A RV plug. Works good, great generator, but not 240V.

We use a 6500/8125 Champion on the big race trailer.
https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/100109-6500-watt-generator/

We do not like to "budget" power. So it will run the 15K AC, microwave, fridge, coffee pot and battery charger without blinking. For a house backup, the best compromise between power and run time will be a 5000 with a real 240V L14-30R connection. We can easy run all night on the 6500 with the AC and a fan running. I fuel it about every 8 hrs. Also, for max run time forget propane unless you have a 250 gallon tank. You get almost 1/2 run time on propane that you will get on gas. You might run a bitty genny off a BBQ tank, but not much more than that.

We are currently looking for a deal on a Honda EU7000i - have connections for things well under list price so just waiting LOL.
 

mike93lx

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If pointing your exhaust thats a few feet away at the propane tank works its not that cold out or not windy...and your tank is still to small.
Look up propane vaporization charts for your size tank. Going from 20lb to 40lb dosnt give you 2x the btu/hr.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=cvWGX61KvprmeM:

For instance a 5kw generator needs 50kbtu at 50 percent load. A 20lb tank will not vaporize that much propane for very long at all. Even a 40lb cylinder will only produce 40kbtu at 25 percent full. Unless you like having a bunch of half full propane tanks you will need to manifold many together. Propane is nice and convenient but please do some research on what draw backs it really has.

http://www.propane-generators.com/propane_usage.php

I did a bunch of research on buying a new portablr propane generator about 2 yrs ago...i now own a DIESEL!

Great feedback, thanks.

For now, I won't be changing anything though. I simply don't use the generator enough to justify buying anything and a 100lb cylinder will be too large to easily handle. If it ever stumbles on a low or cold tank, I usually have a second 40lb cylinder and about 10 gal of gas on hand to keep it going.

My infrequent usage makes propane's storage properties way more helpful than its limitations.
 

TheEquineFencer

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If that is the normal 3500/4000 unit that TSC carries, it's a 120V 30A genset. Had one, it's not 240V. Look at the plugs - 30A twist lock, 30A RV plug. Works good, great generator, but not 240V.

FYI, it is a 120V/240V generator, here's a screen shot of the PDF for it.
 

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6PTsocket

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Very good questions ! The most common answer would be a well pump.

I would get a 120V 3000W inverter generator, or possibly TWO 2000W generators that you can connect in parallel and then use a transformer to make 240V.
If you put 2 generators in parallel, how would you sync them? It is not DC you are talking about. You would probably damage both generators.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

TheEquineFencer

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If you put 2 generators in parallel, how would you sync them? It is not DC you are talking about. You would probably damage both generators.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Some inverter generators are built with paralleling capabilities to load share. It get's into getting Voltage/Governor controls to work as one.
 

rlitman

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If you put 2 generators in parallel, how would you sync them? It is not DC you are talking about. You would probably damage both generators.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Honda inverter generators auto-parallel. You must first connect the outputs BEFORE either is powered up. Then you fire one engine up, and the voltage will be on the output side of the second. Because the voltage is there, the inverter board will sync up as soon as you start the second engine.

The Honda generators that offer this as a feature do so by using insulated banana plug terminals for the interconnect. That way, you don't need to use a suicide cord. Other than the connections though, there is nothing else different from the models that don't have the parallel option.
 

Falcon67

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FYI, it is a 120V/240V generator, here's a screen shot of the PDF for it.

What model # is that - I don't see a Champ "3500" on their site with a 240V twist. I do see a 3650 Model 100216. All the 3500/4000s they sell are 120V with 3 prong connections.

Some inverter generators are built with paralleling capabilities to load share. It get's into getting Voltage/Governor controls to work as one.

This. But for me, I don't have any desire to carry two around. Got enough to haul as it is.
 

rlitman

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...This. But for me, I don't have any desire to carry two around. Got enough to haul as it is.

My 1000W inverter weighs 27 lbs with a full tank of gas. My 2000W inverter is a little over 20 lbs. It isn't at all difficult to carry both at the same time.
 

theoldwizard1

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FYI, it is a 120V/240V generator, here's a screen shot of the PDF for it.

Better image of Champion 3500 watt Model 46598 control panel.

attachment.php
 

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p_mori7

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I used to have a 3500w ~ 120V Coleman Gas Generator.

I now have a 5000w ~ 240V Powerstroke Gas Generator.

The fuel burn difference between the is negligible. The Powerstroke is a lot quieter.

Neither were inverter units.

I keep plenty of stabilized gas on hand at all times.

I like not really having to worry about the loads too much. I power only 120V circuits in the house.

I constantly have my eyes & ears open for a 1800 RPM 10K to 15K unit with a Wisconsin power plant...if I ever score one, it's gonna be permanently installed in the garage. I missed a deal on one about 2 years ago...the lady wanted $1,500.00 (Canadian at that) for it after her husband passed away...called a couple of hours too late.
 
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Falcon67

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Apparently 46598 is discontinued, only the manual is on the Champion web site.

>My 2000W inverter is a little over 20 lbs. It isn't at all difficult to carry both

Sure, the bitty one are cool. Floor space. And I need 13+A on each 240V leg most of the time, so we'd have to carry no less than dual 3200s. Two gens, two tanks to manage, etc - no thanks. And two EU3000s costs more than a EU7000. And the trailer has 50A 240 service, so dual 120s won't work anyway.
 

jimj580

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I bought a champion generator at cabelas . around 4000 watts surge and it has a 240 v twist lock outlet. Starts easy and is quiet
 

Bretny

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Honda inverter generators auto-parallel. You must first connect the outputs BEFORE either is powered up. Then you fire one engine up, and the voltage will be on the output side of the second. Because the voltage is there, the inverter board will sync up as soon as you start the second engine.

The Honda generators that offer this as a feature do so by using insulated banana plug terminals for the interconnect. That way, you don't need to use a suicide cord. Other than the connections though, there is nothing else different from the models that don't have the parallel option.
Hondas do parallel but dont produce 240v. They produce 120v at 30a...what uses that becids mabe an RV is beond me and bo use to the OP. He needs 240v.
 

Showkey

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I bought a champion generator at cabelas . around 4000 watts surge and it has a 240 v twist lock outlet. Starts easy and is quiet


The real questions is..........will it start an AC unit on 95* day ????
( Plus the furnace blower running)
 

Showkey

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It only gets to 95 degrees once every five years in Wausau.


True.............Last year it never got to 90* :lol::lol:

If my power goes out AC is NOT even on the top 10 need list ..........

When I lived in Metro Chicago..........moved to the RV when the power was out for three days........water, shower, AC and comforts of home. Neighbor put in $12k whole house genny and the power never went again.:lol_hitti
 
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TheEquineFencer

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True.............Last year it never got to 90* :lol::lol:

If my power goes out AC is NOT even on the top 10 need list ..........

When I lived in Metro Chicago..........moved to the RV when the power was out for three days........water, shower, AC and comforts of home. Neighbor put in $12k whole house genny and the power never went again.:lol_hitti

Off subject a little...Last year our A/C quit with it in the high 90's during the day and 80's at night outside, inside it was like an oven. At night I told Linda I was going up to the shop and sleep. I waited there until I saw her lights go out at the house, then went over to her horse trailer and plugged in the trailer and slept there with her 13.5 BTU roof top running! I went back over to the shop before she got up to feed the horses.
 

finn

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True.............Last year it never got to 90* :lol::lol:

If my power goes out AC is NOT even on the top 10 need list ..........

When I lived in Metro Chicago..........moved to the RV when the power was out for three days........water, shower, AC and comforts of home. Neighbor put in $12k whole house genny and the power never went again.:lol_hitti

All I care about when the power goes out is having a generator to run the well pump. The freezer probably needs defrosting and cleaning out anyway, the a/c is used for a few weeks in the summer, but isn’t essential, we have a few oil lamps that are sort of romantic.p, and the wood stove provides all the heat we need.

I really hate running down to the lake with a five gallon bucket in bad weather to get water to flush the toilet. Especially in the winter when I need to cut a hole in the ice to dip the bucket.
 

Falcon67

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The real questions is..........will it start an AC unit on 95* day ????
( Plus the furnace blower running)

Our old Champ 35000/4000 (a $299 120V unit) would run an older 13.5K Coleman AC on the 24' trailer. That unit pulled 21A measured in 100F air temp. Contrast to the new 15K Dometic on the new trailer that pulls 13A full blast.

>It only gets to 95 degrees once every five years in Wausau.
LOL, it'll be 90 here this weekend. if it gets past 89 Saturday and Sunday, that'll be 3 times already since Jan 1.
 

theoldwizard1

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I got a lightly used Craftsman 5000W generator after the Great Northeast blackout of 2003. I have to force myself to drag it out of the garage and "exerciser" it every couple of months. Reminds me. I'm overdue !
 

finn

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But you guys in the UP break out in a sweat when it gets above 75 !

A/c goes on at 76. Usually runs two or three weeks.

We go South to Wausau for the winter.....

(Actually, it’s often colder in Wausau in the winter. They don’t have a big lake to moderate the arctic air in the winter)
 

TractorJeff

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All I care about when the power goes out is having a generator to run the well pump. The freezer probably needs defrosting and cleaning out anyway, the a/c is used for a few weeks in the summer, but isn’t essential, we have a few oil lamps that are sort of romantic.p, and the wood stove provides all the heat we need.

I really hate running down to the lake with a five gallon bucket in bad weather to get water to flush the toilet. Especially in the winter when I need to cut a hole in the ice to dip the bucket.

Last time the power went out in Winter my Wife had to go to the pond to get water to flush! :lol_hitti
Other than that it is oil lamps and woodstove heat! :beer:
 

lonesouth

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I'll second the champion 3650 watt does have 240v via a 30a twist lock. It will run my well, but not my 1.5 ton AC.

Regard fuel burn. For liquid fuels, gas/diesel, a general rule of thumb is .1 gal/1kWh. So a 3kW unit running at full load will use a bout .3gph, and a 6kW unit running at 50% load will use the same. That rate is good for about +- 10% with diesel being a little more efficient than gas and inverters being more efficient than diesel. I'm not aware of any inverter on the commercial market that gives 240v, except Honda and those are $$$$.

Propane and Natural gas are closer to .2 gal/kWh.
 
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MachAF

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wondering if the OP ever got the generator to start his HVAC system? Maybe it's a mini-split inverter or he has a soft start kit. Guessing not the case or he would have said so.
 
OP
G

gamp945

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@MachAF: yes, the soft start kit is the key (along with an efficient two-stage heat pump in my case). Soft start drastically reduces inrush current.

I just sold my 240V inverter generator though. I think battery backup is the way to go now in my case.
 

dcg9381

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I have a Champion 3500 watt purchased at Tractor Supply. Spec plate on the generator states, and I quote,
I have a bunch of champions and I'm a fan. This is the smallest 240V I've seen.


The issue with 240V is traditionally you couldn't get them in <5kW. And pay careful attention to the breaker on that 240V circuit because it may well be under 20A.

I'm starting to see options for "linked" generators that are inverter and can do out of phase (240V) mode, not just in phase (more amps) mode.

I'd steer you toward inverter generators as they can RPM reduce when not under load. At load (even moderate loads) their fuel use will be the same.

Our house is on a 20KW generator. I keep a 8KW generator for the shop, which also powers our water pump. Both are big, loud, and do consume some fuel...


3500 watts / 240V = 14.5A peak use. Probably going to do more like 12A continuous. There are cases where running it as 120V may actually work better, depending what things you have on which side of the panel.


I just sold my 240V inverter generator though. I think battery backup is the way to go now in my case.
It's expensive. Enough batteries and inverter to do 6000 watts for 4 hours is going to cost some change... And this would most likely mean that you've isolated "critical circuits". But the fast switch and automatic nature is great... Most of our outages here are under 1 hour.
 
OP
G

gamp945

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It's expensive. Enough batteries and inverter to do 6000 watts for 4 hours is going to cost some change... And this would most likely mean that you've isolated "critical circuits". But the fast switch and automatic nature is great... Most of our outages here are under 1 hour.
Yes, more expensive, but not that bad IMO. At least not for my modest home.

New models of 240V battery backups are hitting the market for around $4k-$6k (before tax credit) that would run my entire home in the summer for almost half a day. Automatic switch . And what's really interesting is that they accept a 120V input for charging - even while simultaneously outputting 240V to the house. That means I could hook up a small 1,000W - 2,000W inverter generator and have infinite run time by refilling the gas tank once per day. And those small inverter generators absolutely sip gasoline and are extremely quiet.
 

Mike65

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We have a 1350 sq ft home & we got a Westinghouse WGEN9500tfc tri fuel portable generator that will be hooked up to the house electrical through a Gener-link transfer switch. We will be powering the essentials in a emergency, 2 refrigerators, 1 stand up freezer, heat pump in the Winter, possibly the A/C compressor in the Summer, or a ceiling fan, Tankless water heater, electrical outlet for the ignitor for the gas stove.
 
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