oscilloscope for auto repair

[joez3]

I have been debugging several igntion problems on one of my cars. Back in the day my dad had an oscilloscope that he used for finding these problems. Can anyone recommend a good scope?
My cars range from a 65 Mustang to a 2015 Mustang. I already have an ODBII reader. If its possible I would also use this to help debug some PC/network issues.
Thanks,

 

[ngk22r]

With OBDII a scope is obsolete. A good used Sun machine is what you would want for the scope. As far as OBDII cars you will want a good scanner like the Launch brands.

 

[xlowxyotax88x]

With OBDII a scope is obsolete. A good used Sun machine is what you would want for the scope. As far as OBDII cars you will want a good scanner like the Launch brands.

I disagree to an extent. While the old sun machine type is outdated a scope is very handy. When codes and live data only lead you so far and a meter is to slow to see, a scope can save the day. We have a shop snap on verus that has a 4 channel built in. Also the older modis has a built in 4 channel scope, and I believe one of the newer scanners had a 2 channel. There are lots of options for them now pico is another example. And I believe launch may have an add on scope module bit may only be for the matco version.

 

[Mr_B]

OBD gives you some direction, a scope possibly confirms exactly what at fault .
2 channel pico is pretty versatile and cost is lowish .
No good diag shop would be without a scope or 2 .

 

[joetech]

look into a fluke 98 can be had pretty reasonable and super simple to learn how to use. Older model meant for automotive work and has specific instructions on how to set it up properly on the screen.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Craigslist for a used 4 channel first gen modis. You get the added benefit of a scanner updated to whenever. Mine has v10 on it, so it still works on plenty of stuff.

 

[gdudik]

With OBDII a scope is obsolete. A good used Sun machine is what you would want for the scope. As far as OBDII cars you will want a good scanner like the Launch brands.

Then why do Modis/Verus, etc come with scope functionality?

Had a severe miss that I could feel; OBD had no idea it was happening. No codes, no misfire counts in mode $06, nada. Scope found the failing coil pack.

For DIY use, I’ve been extremely pleased with my uScope master pack. The only drawback is it’s a single channel scope, so you can’t sync things to the #1 cylinder. But it’s great for ignition primary/ secondary, and viewing coil amp ramp.

 

[jask]

OBD 2 is not going to let you view a profile, pick a point and do time base diagnostics like a scope.. a spark lead with an insulation short will look like a failing coil pack to OBD2.

 

[anndel]

OBD gives you some direction, a scope possibly confirms exactly what at fault .
2 channel pico is pretty versatile and cost is lowish .
No good diag shop would be without a scope or 2 .

Which model are you suggesting, 2204 or 2205A?

 

[ngk22r]

Then why do Modis/Verus, etc come with scope functionality?

Had a severe miss that I could feel; OBD had no idea it was happening. No codes, no misfire counts in mode $06, nada. Scope found the failing coil pack.

For DIY use, I’ve been extremely pleased with my uScope master pack. The only drawback is it’s a single channel scope, so you can’t sync things to the #1 cylinder. But it’s great for ignition primary/ secondary, and viewing coil amp ramp.

Have not touched a scope in over 15 years. Modis was a pain in the *** to deal with using the stupid keys.

OBD 2 is not going to let you view a profile, pick a point and do time base diagnostics like a scope.. a spark lead with an insulation short will look like a failing coil pack to OBD2.

Or just swap a coil to another cylinder to see if you have a spark plug problem vs a coil problem?

 

[Mr_B]

Which model are you suggesting, 2204 or 2205A?

2205A and up are pretty usable budget entry auto scope .

 

[Barrymaxx]

Have not touched a scope in over 15 years. Modis was a pain in the *** to deal with using the stupid keys.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Yeah, keys are annoying. However, it's a quite functional tool, scope is nice to use. For what a used modis, let alone a gen 1 modis, goes for- I can deal with the keys. Really you dont even need the obd2 cable, just remove it and use it as a scope only.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Have not touched a scope in over 15 years. Modis was a pain in the *** to deal with using the stupid keys.



Or just swap a coil to another cylinder to see if you have a spark plug problem vs a coil problem?

Scope will show the coil ramp on an obscured coil. Amp draw is an easy test. Or confirm which cylinder had a lean burn misfire, or confirm actuator movement and command and input.

I love my scope, but it's not the be all end all. Using only a scope or only a scanner leaves holes in your diagnostic capabilities. Yeah, you have to have a scanner for anything remotely modern, but I think rumors of the death of scopes are overhyped.

 

[ngk22r]

which part has you concerned?

Scope will show the coil ramp on an obscured coil. Amp draw is an easy test. Or confirm which cylinder had a lean burn misfire, or confirm actuator movement and command and input.

I love my scope, but it's not the be all end all. Using only a scope or only a scanner leaves holes in your diagnostic capabilities. Yeah, you have to have a scanner for anything remotely modern, but I think rumors of the death of scopes are overhyped.

Scopes are great for older cars but with modern cars you can pick up a lot with scan tools that you can read real time data with out the need of a scope. The more important tool is snap shot data will tell you what you need to know. But then again I deal with one car line now and use the manufacture software on a laptop.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Totally agree, 2010 and up obd2 made big strides. I mainly use my my scope to confirm signal are making it to or from a component. Gotta have pwm signal to an alternator, no sense selling one even if there's no charge output. Sometimes the scope is the best option, sometimes scanner. Most of the time I'm using the scope to confirm scanner commands.

For instance, gm truck has oil pressure gauge intermitantly drop to zero. Gauge sweep tells little, its intermitant. Scope sensor output, check data into the cluster via scanner, plus the gauge itself. Yeah, it's a pressure sensor failure, but this way I check wiring, gauge, and sensor all at once.

I'm all about scan data for cam/crank sync, mode 6 misfire, 02 data. But hey I still use a vacuum gauge for back pressure testing. The OE guys have way different requirements for testing vs someone like me who works on basically everything. I imagine on the OE side you have way better information systems than the average aftermarket shop as well. It's about cars too, many of the cars I'm using a scope on are older relatively, and being that all makes come in, pattern failures take longer to establish.


Differwnt strokes.

 

[xlowxyotax88x]

which part has you concerned?



Scopes are great for older cars but with modern cars you can pick up a lot with scan tools that you can read real time data with out the need of a scope. The more important tool is snap shot data will tell you what you need to know. But then again I deal with one car line now and use the manufacture software on a laptop.

While live data freeze frame data and codes do help l, in the independent world were usually servicing cars that are no longer under warranty and all makes so as mentioned not having a scope leaves a hole in diagnostics at times. Our shop has a rep of finding problems no one else can including the local dealers(we don't have many good ones around really) we had a guy that was a Toyota master tech and said they never used them but he moves back home and bought one and was surprised at the stuff he was solving at his new dealer by having that extra capability. We don't use it a ton but it's great when things get a little bit deep. Had a 98 t100 in today for misfires recent tune up and tbelt that customer did verified timing was correct crank bolt torqued and then scoped the injectors on the 3 cylinders missing and knew it needed injectors in 15 minutes nice to be able to confirm stuff in a quicker way sometimes. Also nice on checking a fuel pump can see how fast the motor in the pump is turning and if it's pulling excessive amps.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Any car WITH A DISTRIBUTOR really need a full functioning Sun Ignition Oscilloscope for diagnosing ignition problems. Know how to properly use one and and interpret the result has now become a dead art ! Plus, finding one is good operating condition is like find dinosaur fossils.

The flip side is that Sun Oscilloscope are pretty much USELESS for engines without distributors.

In the past we have beat the topic of modern digital oscilloscopes to death. I will agree that the Pico Automotive 'scopes are the easiest to use, but they are also the MOST OVERPRICED 'SCOPES ON THE MARKET ! They are using technology from over 10 years ago, which is "ancient" in the electronics world. They will have to come out with some new products soon because the components that they use are likely going out of productions.

There are several low end Chinese 'scope manufactures out there now a days. Only a few have truly "portable" (battery operated, drop resistant) but they have better specs and cost less than tne Pico, even when you add on all of the extra sensors.

I posted this last year. Items I marked with a + are improvements I like.

Pico 2405A (Not one of their automotive specific scopes)
• 4 channel
• 25 MHz bandwidth
• 500 MS/sec (divide by 4 if you are using all 4 channels)
• 4K samples
• suggested retail price $449

BOHICA !
Does if have access to the same software as their automotive series ?

Pico 4425 automotive (bare)
• 4 channel
• 20 Mhz bandwidth
• 200V max per channel +
• 12 bit resolution +
• 400 MS/sec (divide by 4 if you are using all 4 channels)
• 250M samples +
• suggested retail price $1,315

DOUBLE BOHICA !

Some nice features, but it should really sell for $400-$500 !

 

[ngk22r]

I think I did not do the best job explaining in my original post which led to some not understanding my intent.

OP posted that he has a year range of cars which I strictly said for OBDII the scope is obsolete (part I should have added) because newer scanners take the place of one with LIVE snap shot data you can see. For the older car I suggested a good Sun unit (another part I should have added) because it’s the best way to see what is going on in a way an OBDII computer sees things.

Now I will go more in depth as to why I have not used an oscilloscope in 15 years. The technology ramped up significantly on the scanner side 15 years ago with dealer scan equipment. Specifically today I can pull in a car from 2000 (for example) and watch live data, record the data, go back and in that recording select the items I want to graph in relation to other components I select the parameters I want to view it and wha-la have a visual like an oscilloscope would give with only an OBDII plug, no additional leads, no additional equipment, and a lot less time spent setting it up. I can see it all, not just sitting in the work bay, but on the road duplicating the concern, etc.

 

[VinceG]

A scope can be he;pful diagnosing a CAN network on a auto or Semi truck. our company uses Hantek 6074be scopes they are around $200.

 

[f121]

Scope is extremely useful for verifying failing components, provided you know what the trace should look like. Modis Ultra onwards offers guided component testing, for a huge range of vehicles and components it tells you how to test the component and what the trace should look like. No messing around with keys on Ultra/Edge either.

A scope is very much not obsolete in the ODB2 world, theres been a bunch of time I’ve seen failing components that have not triggered a fault, but are not providing the correct reading. Sure the ODB2 reader is the first place to start, but it doesnt remove the need for proper diagnosis.

 

[Mr_B]

your odb not going show you failing motor like a scope can lol. obd and scope completely differing tools which compliment each other very well and have many uses individually too .

 

[stioc]

Agreed...in a busy environment a newer OBD2 scan tool with live data and bi-directional controls will address most of the customer issues. However, when you have to really dig into the circuit integrity or verify what the computer is seeing is in fact true you need a scope. Watch the videos done by NGK Technical Training, Scanner Danner, Pine Hollow and a few others that use the scope often because other shops can't figure out the problem and they get called by the shops.

EDIT: Back to OP, I haven't checked lately but the non-automotive pico scopes aren't bad cost wise and they work fine (< $200 I think). Or older Modis...the good thing about the Modis/Verus etc is that they have tons of built in guided tests and auto configure your scope screen to the test you want to do.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Scope is extremely useful for verifying failing components, provided you know what the trace should look like. Modis Ultra onwards offers guided component testing, for a huge range of vehicles and components it tells you how to test the component and what the trace should look like. No messing around with keys on Ultra/Edge either.

A scope is very much not obsolete in the ODB2 world, theres been a bunch of time I’ve seen failing components that have not triggered a fault, but are not providing the correct reading. Sure the ODB2 reader is the first place to start, but it doesnt remove the need for proper diagnosis.

First gen Modis (EEMS300) has the guided component test too, only up until the update it last received anyways. Part of me really wants to update the 'ol 2009 build modis, I think the last applicable update is for 2017 models? That's plenty new enough for my work, although I rarely need the component test as I've written my own quick cheat sheet, plus numerous of my accessories aren't snap on.

 

[xlowxyotax88x]

If your a paying member of IATN there's a database of known good and bad scope readings that people post it's very helpful if your a tech

 

[stioc]

First gen Modis (EEMS300) has the guided component test too, only up until the update it last received anyways. Part of me really wants to update the 'ol 2009 build modis, I think the last applicable update is for 2017 models? That's plenty new enough for my work, although I rarely need the component test as I've written my own quick cheat sheet, plus numerous of my accessories aren't snap on.

Are the 2017 updates still available for the Modis? I thought SO no longer supported them?

What's this cheat sheet you speak of? we want in

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Are the 2017 updates still available for the Modis? I thought SO no longer supported them?

What's this cheat sheet you speak of? we want in

I'm not sure if they are still available to buy as cards online, I have looked on the diagnostic website, and could find nothing. Snap on user forum posts suggest they are NLA. I have yet to speak with a dealer to see if they are available for download on the truck. Support has been ended for the EEMS300 gen1 MODIS. However, I have yet to see a definition of "support". IMO if the software has been written, why make it unavailable? One would imagine if the dealer has mobile software update ability (which I have used in the past), then they could still update a unit which has ended "support" ie: new updates. If I could get coverage up to 2016, I can get another 10 years out of the scanner part of tool. I don't care about 2017+, let me give you $1000+ and all I want is the data up to 2016. I should give snap on a ring about that. Perhaps someone with truck service could ask their dealer?



I'm working on a quick guide for basic scope settings. ie: Injectors - voltage and amperage scales (for my test equipment), a few basic quick facts, like pintle hump location within waveform, filter usage, quick setup numbers, etc. I've been falling behind as the shop recovers from the winter lull. I have injectors, primary and secondary ignition done, as well as half of alternator A/C voltage issues. There's times where I don't really use the scope, then others I use it on 5-6 cars a day. I know what I want to see, and I'm pretty good at remembering, but If I want to check fuel pump commutator patterns, yeah I may need a quick refresher on my scales. I don't claim to be a scope master, most of this data is just from my testing and available information sources.



EDIT: Current software looks like 19:4 for the active platforms, so 2019 models. I have 11.2? So 2010 is my limit. 16.2 is what I have found to be the final update for the gen1 modis, so 2015 coverage for sure, maybe some 2016? I'm not sure when snap on breaks model years. Although I've found as a general rule one can run older spec vehicle ID if the chassis is the same. As in, 2011 cobalt or whatever is the same as a 2010, run it as a 2010. Potential issues? Maybe, but it will work in a pinch. Autel is updated to 2017, so I'll probably update at the end of this year or early 2020.

 

[GypsyR]

I like a used Snap On scope/scanner for dollar value. The "guided" component testing library type info and samples rock. It doesn't help if you can scan a component but don't know what you are supposed to be seeing. They don't have a lot of really specific stuff for each and every scenario, just stuff to get you started. There's ton of info and video help to take you further.

Not mentioned here yet is one of the all time favorites among "A" mechanics, the Snap On Vantage Pro. No OBD code reading, that's not what it's for. Unfortunately they still command a surprising price as they are still sought after by those in the know.

I found a first gen Modis in a pawn shop. It was lacking the OBD keys and stuff but I didn't care. I have an OBD I Ford so I bought the adapters for that. I use it mostly for ignition and injector stuff. It doesn't care what it is. I used it to tweak the timing and tune on a 1974 Honda trail bike recently. What year these tools are updated to makes a difference. The repair information in them is updated along with the OBD stuff. Obsolete ones are usually not updateable unless you send it on to Snap On for a repair. The guys on the trucks only carry the latest update, 18.4 now and 19.2 is coming anytime. This doesn't help you if you have a Vantage Pro. Though it is updateable to 17.4 (IIRC), the tool guy doesn't HAVE 17.4 and the 18.4 flat won't install. Same goes for the other older scanners. As long as the software on it covers what you want, that's fine. If you do like me and are scoping things that have nothing to do with how updated it is, all you care about is how well it works.

It's worth checking around if you find something interesting. There are things to watch out for. Like Modis 1's usually have dead batteries. That's fine, you can get the battery "rebuilt". But if it has no battery, you're kind of screwed. Dead ones bring over $60 on eBay and they are rare. (You don't actually HAVE to have a battery.) The Modis 1 screen protector isn't replaceable but the Modis 1.5 one is. All kinds of weird stuff like that can help you weed the deals from sucker bets.

 

[gdudik]

I think I did not do the best job explaining in my original post which led to some not understanding my intent.

OP posted that he has a year range of cars which I strictly said for OBDII the scope is obsolete (part I should have added) because newer scanners take the place of one with LIVE snap shot data you can see. For the older car I suggested a good Sun unit (another part I should have added) because it’s the best way to see what is going on in a way an OBDII computer sees things.

Now I will go more in depth as to why I have not used an oscilloscope in 15 years. The technology ramped up significantly on the scanner side 15 years ago with dealer scan equipment. Specifically today I can pull in a car from 2000 (for example) and watch live data, record the data, go back and in that recording select the items I want to graph in relation to other components I select the parameters I want to view it and wha-la have a visual like an oscilloscope would give with only an OBDII plug, no additional leads, no additional equipment, and a lot less time spent setting it up. I can see it all, not just sitting in the work bay, but on the road duplicating the concern, etc.

You have dealer-level scan tools, manufacturer specific, which I have no hope of affording as a diyer-car owner who does all his own work. A $400 scope is reasonable for joe shade tree like me.

 

[ngk22r]

You have dealer-level scan tools, manufacturer specific, which I have no hope of affording as a diyer-car owner who does all his own work. A $400 scope is reasonable for joe shade tree like me.

You would surprised how well the launch brand scanners are and rught on the tail of the dealer ones. Can’t recall the model number but it does everything down to programing keys and doing the same snap shot data graphing. This and a Fluke dmm will set you far into the game.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For the older car I suggested a good Sun unit (another part I should have added) because it’s the best way to see what is going on in a way an OBDII computer sees things.

NOT AT ALL ! I have not touched a Sun 'scope in -probably 40 years, but there is little if any correspondence to a a current day scanner and Sun 'scope.

The Sun's main claim to fame is displaying all secondary ignition wave forms on a screen for comparison. Nothing in OBDII does that. Nothing in any of the commonly available automotive 'scopes can do this !

Secondary ignition wave forms, especially when you can compare all cylinders to each other, can show you any problem in the ignition secondary from the coil all the way through the spark plug.

A good modern automotive 'scope can show you PRIMARY ignition, with experience can show you secondary ignition problems.

 

[Wrench97]

Using processed data from a scan tool can lead you down a rabbit hole very quickly and become costly to you and your customer. While Mode $06 data can help a scope will quickly verify real time data and ensure you are not using substituted data found on scan tools. Not to mention the ability to view long term data while troubleshooting intermittent electrical issues.
I used a Modis with the keys for years and they were a pain newer Modis and Verus (Edge and Pro) units don't use keys and are good tools for diagnostic use.
Pico Scopes are also a good tool I find them a bit more problematic to use in a shop environment having to use a laptop and the scope.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

A good modern automotive 'scope can show you PRIMARY ignition, with experience can show you secondary ignition problems.

My modis and Uscope have secondary viewing capability. Either via a plug wire clamp, or the COP paddle. I'm finding some newer stuff being quite insulated, making it hard for the paddle probe to pick up.

Between amp-ramp, primary, mode $6 - one could say secondary is unnecessary. But I can tell you it's really nice to stick a paddle probe under a intake manifold and call the dead coil BEFORE you sell the job.

 

[Fedwrench]

there was a long period of time when OBD2 appeared when most techs didn't need nor really want a scope. However, as more drive by wire systems have emerged, along with multiple networks on a vehicle, scopes are quickly becoming necessary to pinpoint intermittent issues and other component failures. In the old days, scopes were mostly used on ignition systems and everyone learned about dwell and firing lines. today's scopes are more about signals and performance. visit aeswave.com for examples of scopes, accessories, and training.

 

[stioc]

there was a long period of time when OBD2 appeared when most techs didn't need nor really want a scope. However, as more drive by wire systems have emerged, along with multiple networks on a vehicle, scopes are quickly becoming necessary to pinpoint intermittent issues and other component failures. In the old days, scopes were mostly used on ignition systems and everyone learned about dwell and firing lines. today's scopes are more about signals and performance. visit aeswave.com for examples of scopes, accessories, and training.

aeswave.com as in 'we'll charge you an arm and a leg for the same china products you can buy many other places'? OK some of their stuff is cool but I run the other way when I see their prices

 

[johnnyradiant]

Craigslist can be your friend, or whatever the flavour of the month is in your neighbourhood. I gave away a fully function Sun beast a few years ago (5'ish). The guy that was the first to get here had a bunch of 'em, that worked, that he had either snagged free or cheap. I would think there is that 'guy' in other regions on this continent. You could try posting for a scope but a free one is less likely that way.
I still have one but I ain't parting with it. It isn't a Sun but I kept it 'cause it can sit in it's rack or come out and run off of 12v - handy to take to the marina.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My modis and Uscope have secondary viewing capability. Either via a plug wire clamp, or the COP paddle. I'm finding some newer stuff being quite insulated, making it hard for the paddle probe to pick up.

I have never heard anything POSITIVE about those "paddle" probes.

The reality is, when chasing ignition problems you almost always want to see all of the waveforms even if the are primary voltage. Promary current can be interesting also.

 

[theoldwizard1]

There was a long period of time when OBD2 appeared when most techs didn't need nor really want a scope. However, as more drive by wire systems have emerged, along with multiple networks on a vehicle, scopes are quickly becoming necessary to pinpoint intermittent issues and other component failures.

I disagree with your opening statement. Even today, most vehicle electrical problems can be solved without a 'scope. A good 12V INCANDESCANT test light is very valuable. Watch when YouTuber's South Main Auto or Pine Hollow Diagnostics pull out their 'scope. More often than not, it is used for final confirmation OR to better show the viewer what is happening.

A 'scope is the only tool that can show cam/crank correlation problems.