Oscilloscope...

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Hey guys. I have a PC based scope but using it is too cumbersome. Laptop, scope and space to use it.

What's a decent scope for car audio/diag?

I have an autel ms906ts which has the capability to have a scope attached.
https://www.autel.com/c/www/special/3288.jhtml

Is that a capable tool or more of a "will get you by"tool? I'd love to learn how to use an o-scope in my diagnostic learnings.

Any resources for learning would also be appreciated.

 

[Will S.]

I've got a Hantek 100mhz bench scope,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GHHHWRS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and a "Tablet" portable
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087TBFB3K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

lots of Youtube videos on the subject. This is just one of many:

 

[theoldwizard1]

The SainSmart DSO211, DSO212 and DSO213 are great "bang for the buck". Not necessarily easy to use and I would add a 10x attenuators. They also use non-standard connectors for the cable (MCX male).

Also get a couple of Coax Adapter BNC Female to MCX Male Connector and BNC Male Plug to Banana Plug Coax Oscilloscope Test Lead and at least 2 different size alligator clips.

 

[CS454]

The SainSmart DSO211, DSO212 and DSO213 are great "bang for the buck". Not necessarily easy to use and I would add a 10x attenuators. They also use non-standard connectors for the cable (MCX male).

Also get a couple of Coax Adapter BNC Female to MCX Male Connector and BNC Male Plug to Banana Plug Coax Oscilloscope Test Lead and at least 2 different size alligator clips.

2nd'ing this. Super intuitive interface.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

If you're doing diagnostic work, question one is always buffer. How long? How can you review it afterwards? And how can you manipulate it, if at all?

Saving on thumb drives or internal memory, and needing a laptop to review later, is worthless. At that point buy a laptop scope.

_________________________________

The Autel scope has a maximum input over-voltage of 200v. Probably safe for primary ignition and injector voltage, I personally still attenuate those 10/1.

https://www.autel.com/c/www/special/3288.jhtml

Specs are above. It AC couples, timebase looks good. I've seen people hate on the software. Amazon reviews aren't great. IMO if you can run a snap on, you can deal with running basically anything. Pico recommends starting with with 20/20 rule - 20v range, 20ms/division, and adjusting from there. Works well, on anything but a snap-on scope anyways.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Also: What are you currently using? And what do you like and dislike about it?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Also: What are you currently using? And what do you like and dislike about it?

I'm currently using a PC based OWON scope. I dislike how many wires there are, no room in the car for the scope, computer and leads and able to view the screen all at the same time while working and moving around.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Is the autel one usable? Or not worth the money?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I'm currently using a PC based OWON scope. I dislike how many wires there are, no room in the car for the scope, computer and leads and able to view the screen all at the same time while working and moving around.

My first choice would be a 20 foot USB cable. Stuff the scope and the leads somewhere and then your laptop is a bit freed up. All my leads are 10", and it made things so much easier.

Is the autel one usable? Or not worth the money?

Their marketshare is so small theres almost no info available. Most of the complaints I have read, are all about the user interface. Worth stating, as others research, we have all come across those older posts about the UI. But there are very few people that have actually had one in their hands.

I have a hard time believing it's more counterintuitive than snapon. I did see it listed math channels, which is pretty neat.

 

[Mr_B]

For ability to price the 2 channel pico's hard to beat, software is excellent and that a big big plus .
You can get the pico for not a lot more than better model hantek/owon but ability and interface with pico is different league ...
Just organise cables better and consider small notebook or tablet.
I use a surface pro most of the day in my shop, pick them up used off eBay and put them in a buffer case .
For sure all in one package nice but most worth having and nice use going be expensive .

 

[richfinn]

https://www.picoauto.com/products/automotive-oscilloscope-kit/overview

Have a read through and see if Pico is for you

The fix for your current issues with the Owon is longer scope leads and a trolley to put the scope and laptop on I would of thought

You can also buy non Automotive 2 channel Pico, for around £125 and hack it/supply your own accessories

 

[Citation]

If you consider a bench scope, the Agilent HP 54621A (and family) scopes are older but excellent choices. They are under $200 on ebay all day (you may have to buy new probes, $20 for cheap ones). The reason why I like these scopes is they are very responsive. Many cheap scopes have poor refresh rates (even if they have good frequency response rates). These are just very fast to respond to any control input. They do a good job capturing glitches, and have a very good deep memory function. I suspect they are cheap because they are green CRT vs LCD. Of course that has another advantage, they have 1000 horizontal points (vs many of the LCDs which are 480x800). Another drawback is they are deeper (about 1' vs perhaps 4" for a modern lunchbox scope). Back in the day these were HP's not cheap, mainstream bench scope.
https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000808:epsg:pro-pn-54621A/portable-dso?cc=US&lc=eng

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

If you consider a bench scope, the Agilent HP 54621A (and family) scopes are older but excellent choices. They are under $200 on ebay all day (you may have to buy new probes, $20 for cheap ones). The reason why I like these scopes is they are very responsive. Many cheap scopes have poor refresh rates (even if they have good frequency response rates). These are just very fast to respond to any control input. They do a good job capturing glitches, and have a very good deep memory function. I suspect they are cheap because they are green CRT vs LCD. Of course that has another advantage, they have 1000 horizontal points (vs many of the LCDs which are 480x800). Another drawback is they are deeper (about 1' vs perhaps 4" for a modern lunchbox scope). Back in the day these were HP's not cheap, mainstream bench scope.

https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000808:epsg:pro-pn-54621A/portable-dso?cc=US&lc=eng

Thank you for the recommendation. I think I'm going to keep the OWON for home use, still trying to figure out the automotive side. Pico may be a down the road purchase but I want to start with something robust and simple while I learn.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you're doing diagnostic work, question one is always buffer. How long? How can you review it afterwards? And how can you manipulate it, if at all?

I won't argue with you, but the questions are "How deep are your pockets ?" and "How often are you going to use the tool ?"

There are some very good lab 'scopes on the market these days for less money that a Pico or Autel. They are meant to be used on a bench so they would probably NOT survive a 4' fall to a concrete floor and the require 120V.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you consider a bench scope, the Agilent HP 54621A (and family) scopes are older but excellent choices. They are under $200 on ebay all day (you may have to buy new probes, $20 for cheap ones).
.
.
.
I suspect they are cheap because they are green CRT vs LCD. Of course that has another advantage, they have 1000 horizontal points (vs many of the LCDs which are 480x800). Another drawback is they are deeper (about 1' vs perhaps 4" for a modern lunchbox scope). Back in the day these were HP's not cheap, mainstream bench scope.

I would not want to diagnose a car problem with one of those ! A good cart to haul it around (strapped down, of course) would cost as much as one of those 'scopes. All of your leads would have to be 10'-15' long, but at the frequencies of interest, you can
likely just put a BNC to banana adapter on the 'scope and use a single wire test lead. Don't forget to ground the 'scope to battery negative terminal !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thank you for the recommendation. I think I'm going to keep the OWON for home use, still trying to figure out the automotive side. Pico may be a down the road purchase but I want to start with something robust and simple while I learn.

IMHO, Pico, especially their automotive 'scope, are WAY OVER PRICED !

Yes, it has many nice features and functions, but the technology they are using to build the hardware is "ancient history" compared to the rest of the test equipment industry. They could build a faster, cheaper 'scope using today's technology, for less $$$ !

A 'scope for automotive use DOES require some unique capabilities

• Survive multiple 6' drops on concrete floor
• Battery powered
• Capable of at least 50V input signal (higher would be better)
• 4 channels
• True differential input
• I would design one that attaches to the back of a 10"-13" tablet. Fire 10 HD are ridiculously cheap !
• Even better would be one with a self contained display, but it had better be at least a 10" display and FHD resolution.

 

[richfinn]

IMHO, Pico, especially their automotive 'scope, are WAY OVER PRICED !

Yes, it has many nice features and functions, but the technology they are using to build the hardware is "ancient history" compared to the rest of the test equipment industry. They could build a faster, cheaper 'scope using today's technology, for less $$$ !

A 'scope for automotive use DOES require some unique capabilities

• Survive multiple 6' drops on concrete floor
• Battery powered
• Capable of at least 50V input signal (higher would be better)
• 4 channels
• True differential input
• I would design one that attaches to the back of a 10"-13" tablet. Fire 10 HD are ridiculously cheap !
• Even better would be one with a self contained display, but it had better be at least a 10" display and FHD resolution.

I don't doubt that PICO automotive hardware isn't cutting edge

I also don't think it's necessary

It's the user interface/software that makes it the best value for money shop scope

I was looking at the latest version with BNC+ that recognizes whatever probe you attach and sets up the appropriate channel for you, granted if your familiar with scopes it's not a deal breaker, but a cool feature

I think the waveform library (built by the end users) is very useful

When you factor in that most scope training for auto mechanics (classroom/YouTube and online) use PICO
equipment, it makes a compelling argument to buy a tool that wont become obsolete for a very long time (if ever)

I think the "hand holding" culture around PICO makes it a bit less scary for new users to spend the money

I don't know about the USA, but over here you don't have to buy the kit, you can buy the stand alone scope without all the accessories, and use what you already have

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I won't argue with you, but the questions are "How deep are your pockets ?" and "How often are you going to use the tool ?"

There are some very good lab 'scopes on the market these days for less money that a Pico or Autel. They are meant to be used on a bench so they would probably NOT survive a 4' fall to a concrete floor and the require 120V.

It's about what you want to fix. IMO there's no point to the DIY market doing cam/crank correlation, exhaust pulse misfire measurements, or anything like that. I posted in another scope thread that I felt single channel was 100% fine for DIY. There's no time crunch, no diag time fee, etc. If it takes a bit longer who cares? Basic current waveforms and go/no-go testing is probably fine for most people. If you're trying to catch an intermittently open injector, the refresh rate on your eyes isn't fast enough to stare at a screen. Neither is it for secondary ignition. If one really wants to diagnose and repair, you need big buffers, degree rulers, multiple channels, etc.

Above say $250 in tooling it's probably cheaper to go to the shop and pay for the answer.

I don't doubt that PICO automotive hardware isn't cutting edge

I also don't think it's necessary

It's the user interface/software that makes it the best value for money shop scope

I was looking at the latest version with BNC+ that recognizes whatever probe you attach and sets up the appropriate channel for you, granted if your familiar with scopes it's not a deal breaker, but a cool feature

I think the waveform library (built by the end users) is very useful

When you factor in that most scope training for auto mechanics (classroom/YouTube and online) use PICO
equipment, it makes a compelling argument to buy a tool that wont become obsolete for a very long time (if ever)

I think the "hand holding" culture around PICO makes it a bit less scary for new users to spend the money

I don't know about the USA, but over here you don't have to buy the kit, you can buy the stand alone scope without all the accessories, and use what you already have

We can buy the standalone here too. Not that I think Pico is the DIY choice.

I got some BNC to Banana jack adapters and all my Modis leads I bought are now Pico leads.

 

[Mr_B]

^
I think the 2 channel Pico's are a very good option for the DIY choice .
easier than many to learn, will do quite a lot, lot of online support and cost within acceptable range for most .

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Is there a way to ground autel, owon, Pico, etc so you don't blow up the laptop or tablet or are the protected otherwise?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

^
I think the 2 channel Pico's are a very good option for the DIY choice .
easier than many to learn, will do quite a lot, lot of online support and cost within acceptable range for most .

IDK about the non automotive scopes:

AES has the 4225 for $819, 4425 for $1315. Going to the "A" models adds $25 on the 2 channel, $50 on the 4 channel. At that dollar level I'd be hard pressed to get two channels. Go big or go home at that point.

I looked at getting one of the $150 ones primarily for ABS to use as a signal generator. All I need are 2 channels and basic AC coupling anyways. Ideally I could copy an input signal from a good wheel, and feed it into another wheel. Normally I do this with 15' long leads simply connecting wheel A to the wiring of wheel B.

Is there a way to ground autel, owon, Pico, etc so you don't blow up the laptop or tablet or are the protected otherwise?

There should be no way to do this, unless you're going above the specific maximum voltage ranges of the scope. Usually around either 50V for non automotive scopes, or 200V for automotive specialty scopes.

Although I would imagine the scope would go up in smoke before anything made it between the USB cable, and then into the laptop. Secondary ignition probes do have an extra ground in case the lead gets hit by an actual spark event. Running the spark from an ignition coil into a scope would definitely kill that channel at a minimum.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It's the user interface/software that makes it the best value for money shop scope

True, but they paid those software engineers YEARS AGO and they are still raking huge profits !

I don't know about the USA, but over here you don't have to buy the kit, you can buy the stand alone scope without all the accessories, and use what you already have

And this is where they are REALLY screwing over their customer base !

 

[theoldwizard1]

The fix for your current issues with the Owon is longer scope leads and a trolley to put the scope and laptop on I would of though

And a couple of straps to secure things to the trolley !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Above say $250 in tooling it's probably cheaper to go to the shop and pay for the answer.

I agree, except that I have low confidence in being able to find a shop that is willing to take the TIME to 1) learn the tools and 2) run the tests and do the proper diagnostics !

I would be will to pay Ivan (Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics) Eric O. (south Main Auto) $50/hours for an hour or two of just diagnostics, because I know they know what they are doing.

Around here, you could pay $100/hour for diagnostics and still get a guy who wants to just fire a "parts cannon" !

I got some BNC to Banana jack adapters and all my Modis leads I bought are now Pico leads.

Why ? You can buy much cheaper leads or better yet, buy 50' of 18AWG silicon insulated fine strand wire and make your own.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The SainSmart DSO211, DSO212 and DSO213 are great "bang for the buck". Not necessarily easy to use and I would add a 10x attenuators. They also use non-standard connectors for the cable (MCX male).

I stumbled across this 'scope today.



Typical Chinese, it is sold under multiple brand names, at different price points, but the model number always seems to contain "1013". Also typical of many Chinese electronics the specification are an out and out lies ! The sample rate is 100MS/sec and the usable bandwidth is about 25Mhz.

YEAPOOK ADS1013D Handheld, 2 Channel, Storage Oscilloscope, 7" touch screen display - Amazon $150. Get the "plus" or "II" model. Better ergonomics.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I agree, except that I have low confidence in being able to find a shop that is willing to take the TIME to 1) learn the tools and 2) run the tests and do the proper diagnostics !

I would be will to pay Ivan (Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics) Eric O. (south Main Auto) $50/hours for an hour or two of just diagnostics, because I know they know what they are doing.

Around here, you could pay $100/hour for diagnostics and still get a guy who wants to just fire a "parts cannon" !


Why ? You can buy much cheaper leads or better yet, buy 50' of 18AWG silicon insulated fine strand wire and make your own.

I have my doubts SMA or Ivan do $50 diags. Frankly it's kind of funny shops even charge just "an hour" for diag at the normal "water pump changing" rate. Between a scanner or two and a scope we're talking $6,000+ for the basics, not including information services. I will agree there is far too much parts cannon use. IDK why because everywhere I've ever worked you don't get paid to fix it again, after the first fix fails. Discussion for another thread, the problems are numerous in cause.


The adapters are like $9, and I already owned a suite of leads and probes in banana. I make my own leads in some applications.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I stumbled across this 'scope today.



Typical Chinese, it is sold under multiple brand names, at different price points, but the model number always seems to contain "1013". Also typical of many Chinese electronics the specification are an out and out lies ! The sample rate is 100MS/sec and the usable bandwidth is about 25Mhz.

YEAPOOK ADS1013D Handheld, 2 Channel, Storage Oscilloscope, 7" touch screen display - Amazon $150. Get the "plus" or "II" model. Better ergonomics.

400V input? Wow, they apparently don't want to worry about anyone zapping one.


Does it have a buffer though? Or just the ability to save a screen?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

IDK about the non automotive scopes:

AES has the 4225 for $819, 4425 for $1315. Going to the "A" models adds $25 on the 2 channel, $50 on the 4 channel. At that dollar level I'd be hard pressed to get two channels. Go big or go home at that point.

I looked at getting one of the $150 ones primarily for ABS to use as a signal generator. All I need are 2 channels and basic AC coupling anyways. Ideally I could copy an input signal from a good wheel, and feed it into another wheel. Normally I do this with 15' long leads simply connecting wheel A to the wiring of wheel B.






There should be no way to do this, unless you're going above the specific maximum voltage ranges of the scope. Usually around either 50V for non automotive scopes, or 200V for automotive specialty scopes.

Although I would imagine the scope would go up in smoke before anything made it between the USB cable, and then into the laptop. Secondary ignition probes do have an extra ground in case the lead gets hit by an actual spark event. Running the spark from an ignition coil into a scope would definitely kill that channel at a minimum.

You can copy a signal and inject it into wires?! Basically making a copy of a sensor?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have my doubts SMA or Ivan do $50 diags.

IIRC, they have both quoted $50/hour electronic diag, one hour minimum. That is a STEAL !

 

[theoldwizard1]

400V input? Wow, they apparently don't want to worry about anyone zapping one.

I would not use it around any voltages anywhere near that high !

Does it have a buffer though? Or just the ability to save a screen?

Two reviews. The first is quite critical about it because the specs are ********. In the end he concludes it is worth the money.

EEVblog #1317 - $140 2CH 100MHz Fnirsi Tablet Oscilloscope Review

Less critical, same conclusion

FNIRSI 1013D Tablet Oscilloscope Review

I think the buffer is only a couple of screens.



Segue - this is where I think the Chinese electronics people miss the mark. For maybe $50 more they could easily add a lot more memory and a faster processor. The darn thing actually has an SD card internally. Why not externally ? For $100 more they could make it 4 channel ! Of course at $250 you are getting dangerously close to some really capable bench 'scopes !

And stop LYING about the specs ! It does 100MS/sec and about 25Mhz bandwidth.

 

[Mr_B]

IDK about the non automotive scopes:

AES has the 4225 for $819, 4425 for $1315. Going to the "A" models adds $25 on the 2 channel, $50 on the 4 channel. At that dollar level I'd be hard pressed to get two channels. Go big or go home at that point.

I looked at getting one of the $150 ones primarily for ABS to use as a signal generator. All I need are 2 channels and basic AC coupling anyways. Ideally I could copy an input signal from a good wheel, and feed it into another wheel. Normally I do this with 15' long leads simply connecting wheel A to the wiring of wheel B.

Yeah i referring to the 150 to 350buck range (100 buck increments) 2000 series ones
the 2205b 2206b and 2207b .
I got one and you be surprised how good/useful they are and do lot of auto testing well enough for pro use let alone DIY, (will need attenuators), you can save setting configs and import settings giving you lot of handy setups bit like the automotive scope .
The signal generator is excellent and works for abs fine as well as others .
Really offers DIY guy a lot of potential with good usable results and nice software platform to learn on .

 

[richfinn]

This guy uses a non automotive entry level PICO which I think might be a good DIY starter scope

https://www.mechanicmindset.com/

 

[richfinn]

True, but they paid those software engineers YEARS AGO and they are still raking huge profits !


And this is where they are REALLY screwing over their customer base !

We need to buy some shares/stock in this company next year

 

[mrjaw14]

you should look at LabNation SmartScope. I use with an android tablet, but can be used with PC or MAC as well. not the deepest buffers nor is it a pico, but it's a nice scope

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

This guy uses a non automotive entry level PICO which I think might be a good DIY starter scope

https://www.mechanicmindset.com/

I came across that video today funny enough (the content creator anyways)

 

[theoldwizard1]

you should look at LabNation SmartScope. I use with an android tablet, but can be used with PC or MAC as well. not the deepest buffers nor is it a Pico, but it's a nice scope

Not bad and reasonably priced.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

IIRC, they have both quoted $50/hour electronic diag, one hour minimum. That is a STEAL !

Underselling their skills IMO. But hey, if you're a customer that's a great value.

I would not use it around any voltages anywhere near that high !


Two reviews. The first is quite critical about it because the specs are ********. In the end he concludes it is worth the money.

EEVblog #1317 - $140 2CH 100MHz Fnirsi Tablet Oscilloscope Review

Less critical, same conclusion

FNIRSI 1013D Tablet Oscilloscope Review

I think the buffer is only a couple of screens.



Segue - this is where I think the Chinese electronics people miss the mark. For maybe $50 more they could easily add a lot more memory and a faster processor. The darn thing actually has an SD card internally. Why not externally ? For $100 more they could make it 4 channel ! Of course at $250 you are getting dangerously close to some really capable bench 'scopes !

And stop LYING about the specs ! It does 100MS/sec and about 25Mhz bandwidth.

As long as it has a great zoom, a few screens of buffer may be enough. I had that issue with my snap-on Modis. Trying to slam down the PAUSE button before you loose the data you need.

Yeah i referring to the 150 to 350buck range (100 buck increments) 2000 series ones
the 2205b 2206b and 2207b .
I got one and you be surprised how good/useful they are and do lot of auto testing well enough for pro use let alone DIY, (will need attenuators), you can save setting configs and import settings giving you lot of handy setups bit like the automotive scope .
The signal generator is excellent and works for abs fine as well as others .
Really offers DIY guy a lot of potential with good usable results and nice software platform to learn on .

I agree that's a great value. I looked at the 2000 series for the signal generator. Pico 6 software is pretty simple to use. With a bit of math and time rulers you can make degree rulers.

EDIT: Looks like the 2000 series also has basic degree rulers.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Underselling their skills IMO. But hey, if you're a customer that's a great value.




As long as it has a great zoom, a few screens of buffer may be enough. I had that issue with my snap-on Modis. Trying to slam down the PAUSE button before you loose the data you need.





I agree that's a great value. I looked at the 2000 series for the signal generator. Pico 6 software is pretty simple to use. With a bit of math and time rulers you can make degree rulers.

EDIT: Looks like the 2000 series also has basic degree rulers.

Rulers... ugh.... I have a lot to learn

 

[2ndGearRubber]

You can copy a signal and inject it into wires?! Basically making a copy of a sensor?

I believe one can save a waveform, and then use it for the signal on the waveform generator. Can't confirm that though. Really one could just sweep the options on sensor wire until you see a registered speed, then send the same signal into the suspect WSS chassis wiring. At that point, I'll just send wheel A signal into wheel B wiring.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Rulers... ugh.... I have a lot to learn

Pretty simple really, and super useful. I normally just use them when I have a pulse sensor in the exhaust looking for misfires.

One can also buy "overlay" software, like what the driveability guys offer. Only once did I find a firing order they didn't have listed. It brings up a graphical view of the firing order and what cylinder is on what stroke. Doing it by hand is easy for a 4cyl, on a V8 it gets messy to do by hand.

You can use them to tell the time differential between to spots on your capture as well. Figuring out RPM, time change, and outlying a single revolution of 720*.


I've been thinking about buying a camera and making some super introduction level videos. Never think anyone has all of automotive lab-scope diagnostics wrapped up. Check out channel masks. Outline your waveform, with a mask. Anytime the waveform strays outside this pre-determined limit, it freezes the screen.

If we get super slow this winter I want to play more with that. If I can get a hold of a coworkers car with a high resolution crank sensor I want to use the frequency to look at misfires. I have a tough time with that, and normally just do exhaust pulse measurements. The world is your oyster.