OSHA Strikes Again!

[2007markb]

Ok, so i have a very old warner and swasey turret lethe. We had an osha inspection before . There was a long discussion on the feed shafts for the carriages. Told we had to guard them, a few weeks later, we were told no, its ok. So we thought we were in the clear....now $2500 fine for them not being guarded. I have less than two weeks to get them guarded. I have found some retractable curtains made specifically for this task. Has anybody gone through this? Does anyone have any other ideas? After buying three of these guards, plus the fine, were looking at $10k. Help if you can!

 

[SKAutomotive]

Do you have proof that you were told they were okay, if so, you can tell them to shove the fine in court.

 

[woody 73]

I don't think you want to get them upset, not the way to go. Perhaps you can make something using plexiglass material for your lathe.

 

[Kracin]

Do you have proof that you were told they were okay, if so, you can tell them to shove the fine in court.

hah, good luck with that, osha isn't exactly new to the game when it comes to this stuff

 

[t100]

OSHA = Herpes.

 

[stonewellmark]

Some long shock absorber rubber boots? Probably too much work to install though.

 

[trbomax]

Sounds to me like its time to say screw it and lock the doors and go home.Shut the plce down and then"reorganize and reopen under new management" in a few weeks.These people(OSHA) have no idea the problems they cause small bussiness,and dont care either. Its the same as my post in "electrcal" about the thread"what to do with this". Just political ********.

 

[STANIMAL]

OSHA has the power to enforce these "rules" ?

 

[Kracin]

OSHA has the power to enforce these "rules" ?

simply put, yes.

 

[91bronc300]

So first they say "that's bad, fix it" then they say "no, that's fine like that" then they come and stick you with a fine? Sounds like a shakedown to me.

 

[Kracin]

So first they say "that's bad, fix it" then they say "no, that's fine like that" then they come and stick you with a fine? Sounds like a shakedown to me.

welcome to osha. sometimes they will hit every single little thing they can find, and sometimes they will let the most ridiculous and fucked up **** slide.

ask some people who have done walkthroughs with osha in less than desireable conditions and got away with next to no fines

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Everything from OSHA needs to be in writing on official OSHA forms/letterhead. If they say something needs to be guarded, they need to put it in writing. If they say, no, its OK without a guard, you need it in writing. Simple. Only other way would be to have video/audio of the OSHA rep stating whats OK or not, even then, it could be a problem.

Charles

 

[darkk]

OSHA is God when it comes to any business operating in the United States. I always wondered who the **** gave them all that power? Who?

 

[oldldh]

BIG government is just grand, ain't it???

If it's not written, it didn't happen...

Good luck, I'm afraid you're going to need it....

 

[slip knot]

Email is your friend here. never ever call these people on the phone. email any questions you have and make them email you back. I cant tell you how many times I've dug an official email out of the archives to save my *** with regulatory agencies.

 

[uniballer]

OMG, hate it when they come by! I now run a shop under two people, and you have to have three or more for them to pop by. Learned that by reading their regulations.

 

[elgato3]

Do you have the inspection report from the OSHA inspector? Check the non-compliance or deficiency section for the mandatory corrective items and deadline. It seemed that the verbal waiver was not documented by OSHA. My recommendations are followed:
1. Correct the defiency ASAP since you are already passed the deadline.
2. Ask for a compliance re-inspection to stop the fine clock. The fine is continuing to accumulate until OSHA passing the correction of the defiency.
3. Document the name of the inspector that gave the verbal waiver and the conversation.
4. Write a letter to the original inspector asking for help in reducing the fine due to the confusion of the verbal waiver. You likely still have to pay a fine but with a reduction.
PM me if you need further help. Good Luck.

 

[Steinmetz]

Ok, so i have a very old warner and swasey turret lethe. We had an osha inspection before . There was a long discussion on the feed shafts for the carriages. Told we had to guard them, a few weeks later, we were told no, its ok. So we thought we were in the clear....now $2500 fine for them not being guarded. I have less than two weeks to get them guarded. I have found some retractable curtains made specifically for this task. Has anybody gone through this? Does anyone have any other ideas? After buying three of these guards, plus the fine, were looking at $10k. Help if you can!

As in any administrative matter, you have a right to a hearing regarding the order before an administrative law judge outside the agency. If you request the hearing, compliance with the order is suspended until it is heard.

 

[Steinmetz]

Sounds to me like its time to say screw it and lock the doors and go home.Shut the plce down and then"reorganize and reopen under new management" in a few weeks.These people(OSHA) have no idea the problems they cause small bussiness,and dont care either. Its the same as my post in "electrcal" about the thread"what to do with this". Just political ********.

The OP would only be hurting himself. Statements like this are are very unproductive.

 

[MPOWERD]

OSHA rules... What companies rights are and what you can do about them.

http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/Uploads/Documents/Emergency_Response_Field_Guide.pdf

Looks like the OP shouldnt have let them onto the property... You can require them to obtain a search warrant to even come onto your property and you also can require them to disclose why they are doing the inspection in the first place.

You should read this in detail to be better prepared for the next inspection and also you should find out why they were there and review everything they told you. They have to send you copies of everything covered in the inspection and all subsequent communications...

 

[HTGTS350]

OSHA = Herpes.

More like AIDS and Cancer combined.

 

[darkk]

Looks like the OP shouldnt have let them onto the property... You can require them to obtain a search warrant to even come onto your property and you also can require them to disclose why they are doing the inspection in the first place.

You should read this in detail to be better prepared for the next inspection and also you should find out why they were there and review everything they told you. They have to send you copies of everything covered in the inspection and all subsequent communications...

Yup...I worked in a body repair shop and one of the secretaries called OSHA on us because she smelled paint. ?????? We told her when she complained to the boss, Being a body shop we isolated the offices as best we could. But come on....in that type of shop you are at some point going to smell paint. He did all he could do to appease her. I think what she was smelling was the odor from the body men because we had to go into the bosses rear office for paperwork, orders, issues with the jobs etc. You will smell paint of maybe she was actually smelling the body filler on us. OSHA was so far up our asses for about 4-5 months, they were there like every ******* day! They kept talking to her and finding more **** everytime we turned around. finally the boss got a lawyer, he threw them out. We went to court, they got one inspection and a team came for the ONE issue and they finally resolved it. Yes, the secretary was finally let go, but only after thousands in fines and repairs that weren't necessary....be very aware....Don't let them in!

 

[cryan]

Over here we have the Health and Safety Executive, HSE are a strange group of people who see danger in the most innocent things. They don't write rules though, they write guidelines and its up to you to "Interpret," the guidelines and hell mend you if you interpret them different from them and something goes wrong! Until a couple of years ago I was the Chief Engineer on a naval dockyard Tugboat. Its about as dangerous a job as you get where the risk of imminent death was real and constant yet we had the best safety record of any department in the dockyard because we knew our job and we watched out for each other. We got hammered pretty hard by HSE when one of their inspectors saw us moving barges around from the quayside and he considered the way we worked to be too dangerous. They came with a list of recommendations which myself and the skipper had to go through with the crew. We adopted precisely none of them and sent back a report explaining why each one of the suggestions made would reduce the safety onboard. Fortunately the Dockmaster backed us as our accidents were rare and minor and usually caused by other vessels we were moving.
However the culture of fear over the HSE's actions had had a devastating effect in the UK with things such as Kids school sports days cancelled over fear of injury. I take the view that the HSE are damaging the evolutionary process by saving all the idiots!

 

[HTGTS350]

[However the culture of fear over the HSE's actions had had a devastating effect in the UK with things such as Kids school sports days cancelled over fear of injury. I take the view that the HSE are damaging the evolutionary process by saving all the idiots![/QUOTE]

These are my thoughts exactly: making something idiot proof just attracts idiots, exactly what has happened to the mining industry in Australia.

 

[2007markb]

No, unfortunately it was a verbal over the phone deal

 

[2007markb]

Well, there are lot of comments to make comments on. First of all, we havent had an inspection in over 20 years, so i guess it was bound to happen. We have 20+ people in the shop so were screwed there. The original inspector saw the feed shafts the moment he looked at the lathe. It was written down and pictures were taken so that his "supervisor" could make a determination. Phone calls in the weeks after, we were told that it was ok, now we get the paperwork and BAM! there it is. I have a total of 10working days left to get them guarded before another walk through to make sure everything is in compliance. My thing is you can buy a brand new lathe with the same feed shafts, and they are not guarded. How do we get the mfgs to start complying with OSHA standards? Two years ago, a piece of equipment we manufacture, took someones hand off. Poor sap shouldnt have had his hands in there, but in part of the lawsuit, we had to start guarding this area. Is that what it takes to get a manufacturer to guard these? The worse part is that OSHA wont tell you how to guard items. I can spend $7500 guarding this part and they can come in and say, "Nope, nice effort, try again". I guess i have turned this into more of a rant than anything, but in my opinion,these outrageous fines may be part of the reason that manufacturing is headed overseas where there arent as strict safety standards. Im all for safety, but when placing guards on something like milling machines keeps you from seeing your work, how do you work? By the way, my radial drill press and milling machine werent cited for anything. My brand new marvel saw got a $1700 fine because when we change the blade, we dont do a lock out tag out at the breaker. Marvel has equipped the saw with a lock out key so that the blade drive motor is inoperable, but the hydaraulic pump, which helps tension the blade is operable. That one we are fighting. Thankfully i still have the company reps info and he is going to attend the hearing with us. Thanks everyone for the info. Ill keep you informed.

 

[KU_MechE]

You're right, the life of your workers is not worth the cost to install guards. We have lots of spare fingers too

 

[djb25]

Wow... That's quite a situation you've for there!

I don't have any experience dealing with OSHA, but there are some basic steps you can take when dealing with any governmental agency. Considering the amount of the fine, it's probably worth it for you to to push back a little.

First, find out what rule or regulation you're accused of violating. Look it up and see if it clearly applies to your situation. It could be very general, or vague or not applicable to you at all. If the OSHA office already waffled on whether you were in violation, that likely means that there's a good argument that you're not in violation.

Next you'll want to track down some information on prior OSHA determinations. This information might be available online somewhere, I don't know. Basically you want to try and find out how the rule you're accused of violating has been interpreted in the past.

If you've been able to find some useful info, your next step is to find out exactly how you challenge or appeal the determination. The basic info is probably with the paperwork you received with the fine.

You could also contact the manufacturer of your machine and see if they are able to provide you with any information regarding the lack of guards. If they're still manufacturing machines without the guards, then this has never come up before (which is somewhat helpful for you) or it has come up before and there's been a determination that they're not necessary. Or, I suppose they could just not care about their customers...

Above all, make sure you don't incur any additional fines. Maybe you can take the machine out of service for the time being? I imagine there is some sort of procedure that would prevent additional fines from accruing during the review (assuming that is how things work). You may have to pay the fine and be refunded if you're successful.

One last thought - maybe call the inspector again and ask him why you were fined. It could have been a mistake, maybe someone forgot to remove the violation after you were given the "all clear."

The mandatory disclaimer - although I am a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer, and the preceding info is not legal advice or direction. It is just a few suggestions on how you can go about informing yourself (and thereby protecting yourself).

Good luck!

 

[The Ratchet Man]

OSHA rules... What companies rights are and what you can do about them.

http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/Uploads/Documents/Emergency_Response_Field_Guide.pdf

Looks like the OP shouldnt have let them onto the property... You can require them to obtain a search warrant to even come onto your property and you also can require them to disclose why they are doing the inspection in the first place.

You should read this in detail to be better prepared for the next inspection and also you should find out why they were there and review everything they told you. They have to send you copies of everything covered in the inspection and all subsequent communications...

Forcing them to obtain a search warrant is just delaying the inevitable. They WILL receive one because they are legally required to inspect. As for the reason for the inspection, what does it matter. They will still inspect. Things like this are only adding fuel to a fire that started before you even knew it. The people inspecting are part of the same group issuing search warrants...the government.

Keeping copies of documentation is important, as well as taking detailed pictures of anything he cites or suggests. A witness is also recommended.

I work for a company governed by MSHA. We have a class once a year that covers our rights under the law as well as the proper way to accompany an inspector during an inspection. We usually have an inspection once a year but have had three in a year a time or two. I've also worked under an OSHA company before and OSHA is a cake walk.

I'm all for safety and its my number one priority at work but I also have to utilize my rights to protect myself. Having said that, just because you have rights doesn't mean they will be helpful. Do you really want law enforcement serving the search warrant while the inspector waits patiently to inspect your business?

 

[cryan]

Being from the UK I have obviously never dealt with OSHA before. However I have dealt with the US Port Health authority back when I worked on cruise ships. It was the biggest scam going! Basically it is absolutely impossible to get 100% on a USPH inspection if there is ANY sort of daily use fridge with food in it or coffee cups or food handling machinery such as mixers or mincers. BUT the big cruise ship magazines all publish each ships score so the cruise ship companies put pressure on their staff to get as close to 100% as possible and below 95% people are getting sacked. Long story short, a couple of days before the ship reaches the USA suddenly all the ceramic coffee cups are replaced with paper cups. all the loose food such as bread, fruit etc vanishes from all the galleys and food service areas and is stored in the catering staffs cabins which are not inspected. Then a huge amount of defect requests arrive in the engine room basically stating that none of the food machinery is working and in the galley every machine from coffee machines to toasters is locked out/tagged out and festooned with danger stickers and, "Do Not Use," signs. Basically as far as the United States Port Health is concerned; If it aint in working service or they cant see it, it's not a hazard to hygiene!

Now I don't know if OSHA has the same outlook as their cousins in Port Health but if you know when they are coming, why not disconnect the power supply, cover it in warning signs and tape and claim that it is out of service until a safe alternative can be found. When they leave put the machine back in service. Of course if there are surprise visits your screwed.

 

[2007markb]

Im not saying that. The company will pay to guard the equipment proplerly, its not a matter of money. We found retractable curtains that move with the carriages, $2300 each, we need three. We emailed them to the inspector to see if it will suffice for what they are looking for. We get "i dont know". How do you justify spending that money if it may or may not be what they are looking for. I am the one and only operator on the lathe. Yeah, **** happens, but whenever i have had to reach near those shafts, the lathe gets turned off no matter what. Do i lock out tag out? No. Not to reach for a tool i dropped. If it costs us $10k to guard it so we can continue manufacturing our parts, so be it. But we need a definitive answer on whether this is OSHA compliant. Has anyone here been fined for such a violation? If so, what passed and what didnt pass? I have read several pdf files on the internet from OSHA with the exact violation. Unfortunately, the violators info has been erased im assuming for privacy acts.

 

[cryan]

Another trick I have seen used in over here is that when the inspector arrives. Absolutely insist that as part of your safety system he must complete a mandatory safety induction before he can enter the shop floor. Then sit him in an office and make him watch a series of safety videos and afterwards give him a test on the videos he has seen. followed by an instruction class on the proper use of the protective equipment he must wear to enter the shop floor.
I saw this happen in a workplace in the UK, after sitting through a 1.5 hour induction the guy just had a quick dash around the shop floor and commended the company on its safety policy especially keeping visitors safe.

 

[Steinmetz]

Im not saying that. The company will pay to guard the equipment proplerly, its not a matter of money. We found retractable curtains that move with the carriages, $2300 each, we need three. We emailed them to the inspector to see if it will suffice for what they are looking for. We get "i dont know". How do you justify spending that money if it may or may not be what they are looking for. I am the one and only operator on the lathe. Yeah, **** happens, but whenever i have had to reach near those shafts, the lathe gets turned off no matter what. Do i lock out tag out? No. Not to reach for a tool i dropped. If it costs us $10k to guard it so we can continue manufacturing our parts, so be it. But we need a definitive answer on whether this is OSHA compliant. Has anyone here been fined for such a violation? If so, what passed and what didnt pass? I have read several pdf files on the internet from OSHA with the exact violation. Unfortunately, the violators info has been erased im assuming for privacy acts.

Do not rely on informal interactions. You are required only to respond to orders in writing, so that the proceedings are "on the record", per the Administrative Procedures Act.

 

[cryan]

I have read several pdf files on the internet from OSHA with the exact violation. Unfortunately, the violators info has been erased im assuming for privacy acts.

We have a great piece of legislation called The Freedom of Information Act which has caught out a lot of government departments when they have been up to no good.

 

[Zeke]

OSHA would be smarter to simply say no shirt tails in the shop, only overalls. How about a solid flat bar all along the length of the machine at the same height of the drives?

I have an idea that OSHA would look at all the machines and safety items and think nothing of some cat with hair down to his shoulders not being *******.

 

[Steinmetz]

Forcing them to obtain a search warrant is just delaying the inevitable. They WILL receive one because they are legally required to inspect. As for the reason for the inspection, what does it matter. They will still inspect. Things like this are only adding fuel to a fire that started before you even knew it. The people inspecting are part of the same group issuing search warrants...the government.

Keeping copies of documentation is important, as well as taking detailed pictures of anything he cites or suggests. A witness is also recommended.

I work for a company governed by MSHA. We have a class once a year that covers our rights under the law as well as the proper way to accompany an inspector during an inspection. We usually have an inspection once a year but have had three in a year a time or two. I've also worked under an OSHA company before and OSHA is a cake walk.

I'm all for safety and its my number one priority at work but I also have to utilize my rights to protect myself. Having said that, just because you have rights doesn't mean they will be helpful. Do you really want law enforcement serving the search warrant while the inspector waits patiently to inspect your business?

The search warrant business is nonsense. Admittedly the agency has the authority to seek a search warrant in cases where "administrative probable cause" exists, from a non-Article III judge. But it's only exercised in cases where some flagrant violation is occurring, and the violator is uncooperative. That's not your case at all. You're just experiencing a lazy bureaucrat. Insist on interactions that are "on the record". He'll know what you mean.

 

[Steinmetz]

We have a great piece of legislation called The Freedom of Information Act which has caught out a lot of government departments when they have been up to no good.

We have one in the U.S. also. Its scope has been greatly curtailed in recent years, unfortunately.

 

[Roots]

First. Why weren't they guarded in the first place?
Edit: appears the manufacturer didn't provide guarding. How old is the equipment? Who is the manufacturer?

Second. Contact the equipments manufacturer. They likely have a solution in place, if the equipments not that old.

Third. If the manufacturer is of no help or out of business, there are some aftermarket machine guard manufacturers. You can easily Google a few or just look in the ads from what ever safety periodicals you subscribe to.

Fourth. Machine guarding is a current pet peeve of many inspectors. As the requirements have been in place for awhile, with in many cases a flagrant disregard of adherence. Lack of awareness isn't an excuse. Variance waivers can be obtained in certain circumstances, but it's extremely unlikely after being caught in noncompliance.

Fifth. Now that they're looking. It would be a good idea to have a managerial meeting to discuss compliance with current safety standards and programs.

If you need any help, feel free to ask.

 

[Roots]

Im not saying that. The company will pay to guard the equipment proplerly, its not a matter of money. We found retractable curtains that move with the carriages, $2300 each, we need three. We emailed them to the inspector to see if it will suffice for what they are looking for. We get "i dont know".

Contact the retractable guard manufacturer. Ask, in writing, if they will meet OSHA's standards for your particular application. Any reputable guard manufacturer will have professional experience in dealing with compliance. It is their core business after all.

 

[helterskelter]

Mark,

I think a lot of it depends on who inspected the site. I know some of our machines don't have to have full guards but I'm not sure why. I'd fully read all the rules and make sure there's no loophole you can find (or better pay someone who does know the rules).

Not sure what to tell you, but if I had to spend 10K to guard an old turret lathe, I'd be seriously considering a used CNC lathe (mmm Mazak...bar feeder...). Sub your parts out to a local CNC shop until you can get it in the door.

It's a ridiculous situation, guards have no place on a manual lathe.