Our 6.6mx9.3m (~22'x31') attached garage/workshop in Australia

[metalhead140]

Our 6.6mx9.3m (~22'x31') attached garage/workshop build (renovation?) in Australia

Hello everyone,

I have read threads here on and off over a number of years, but have been reading heavily over the past month or so. In 2 weeks we get the keys to our next house, and my wife and I have been planning out the layout for the garage which will serve as our workshop. The garage will be focused around doing mechanical and restoration work on cars, but will also serve as a workshop for other jobs around the house and property. The house is on 3.2 acres and is an 11 year old brick house, so hopefully the house will serve us well, but there is a lot of things we will be doing around the place so that it suits us better.

We had a 6x9m metal building/shed/garage at our previous property (~20'x30'), but while it saw a lot of work, it was never a particularly nice place to be. Forever dusty, piled with parts around the floor, hot in summer and cold in winter, it was a great luxury when we bought the place compared to what we had (or rather didn't have) previously, but this time around we want something nicer, with good storage, organised work areas, and easily cleaned floors etc.

The garage is 6.6m (21.7') wide and 9.35m (30.7') deep. The plan is that hopefully at any time it can have at least 2 cars in it, and we are lucky in that there is also a machinery shed (open one side, gravel floor) on the property where cars can be parked if needed. Ideas at this stage are for an in-ground scissor lift hoist (so it's not in the way when not in use), probably porcelain tiles for the floor, as much storage as possible to get everything out and up off the floor, and some nice big benches, setup as dedicated work areas for different tasks.

We currently have everything from the previous shed stored in a 40' shipping container, and have to decide whether we will move this to our new home for additional storage or sell it. The main issue with moving it is trying to hide it/make it look nice at the new location. The main issue with NOT moving it is working out what to do with heavier/bulkier/harder to store items (engines/gearboxes/rear axles etc). Perhaps an area of the machinery shed may be able to be closed in for storing of these items. Any thoughts or ideas on storage of these items would be appreciated!

We have started to draw up some floor plans/layouts so that we can decide what we want and where, I will attach these to this post. If anyone has any thoughts/ideas/suggestions/criticisms then we would love to hear them! A lot of this (cabinets/benches etc) will not all happen straight away, but we figure if the plans are in place then we can work towards them over time as we get the time/money/materials.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to your thoughts. Cheers,

Andrew.

P.s. The 'F250' ('79 Ford F250) and 'Midget' ('70 MG Midget) are the largest and smallest cars we own, placed to give an idea of the space. And no, we don't own 4 Midgets!

 

[metalhead140]

No replies yet, I guess that's fair enough, not much to see yet. Is this the right forum for a plan/buildup? I thought so from looking around, but maybe not?

Anyway, get the keys in 2 days. I've got a few pictures my wife took when we were looking at the house to give you a taste of what we're looking at.

The side of the house and a bit of the view:



More of that view:



A bit more of the house (excuse the poor lighting/afternoon sun):



And the end that matters to us (attached garage behind shrub, open machinery shed in background):



Back wall inside the garage. Door in front leads to backyard, doorway in right of frame leads to the laundry and back deck:



Looking out from the laundry (my brother in law being silly in shot...). You can see the machinery shed through the windows:



Lots of work to be done to make a nice workshop as you can see, but it's a good place to start. Anyway, this is by far the nicest place we will have ever lived, our own little slice of paradise. I will put up another post soon with some more specifics and some questions.

 

[metalhead140]

Interesting... I've been trying to make that post all day. For whatever reason, I can post from Internet Explorer, but not Firefox today?

 

[rixtrix1]

Nice looking home and property!

 

[Filippimini]

Looks like a really good start. Where in NSW are you? I'm also a BMC car fan.

That machinery shed looks like it would be really easy to close in. You could even concrete the section you close in and put a roll up door on it.

 

[metalhead140]

Ok,

So plans (now updated with correct scissor lift dimensions):



You can see our rough layout ideas in the plans above. We have now ordered an in-floor scissor lift (yesterday), so need to cut the slab and lay a new one in order to install it. Ceiling (or rafter currently) height is 3.25m, so I don't think we will do anything about raising it, that should be enough height for the majority of the vehicles I will be lifting to go full height (1.8m) on the scissor lift. I am hoping to put in porcelain floor tiles, but have gone over budget on the lift, so... We shall see. We are hoping we can get these things done (floor, tiles, lift install) over the next couple of weeks as I have taken 2 weeks of leave to get moved in, however we also have 200m of fencing to put up, so again, we shall see!

Questions I have for anyone to have some input:

1) Do people think we should line and/or insulate the walls? I am pretty keen to line the ceiling, and hope to air condition the space later on so would most likely insulate it too, but I wonder if we should do the walls too?

The upsides to lining the walls as I see them are:
- Improved insulation (potentially)
- Improved lighting/brightness in the space (assuming painted a light colour)
- Might cut down on dust from the brickwork? I'd appreciate peoples thoughts on this, and how much it might help/not be an issue. I haven't had a brick garage before, so don't know how much the bricks might contribute to dirt/dust.

Downsides are simple:
- Cost
- Reduced area (albeit slightly) in an already smallish workshop.

2) Storage of big things. Storage is going to be key to making this workshop work/feel the way we want it to, and being able to get it clean and tidy. I think most things can be handled without too much difficulty using ideas found on here, and by building lots of cupboards and some overhead storage in the areas other than around the hoist. However several things I haven't been able to find good/ideal ideas on:

- Engines/gearboxes/rear axles. Gearboxes (transmissions) can be put up in higher cupboards if they are sturdy enough, so that's less of an issue. But I have a number of engines and at least one complete rear end to store so would appreciate any ideas on this. Best idea so far was my wifes suggestion to build small carts for them, and make the bottom cabinets under the benches extend to floor level so we can roll them underneath. So far this seems like a pretty good idea, but I'd still be very open to other suggestions that wouldn't take up so much of the easily accessible storage space...
- Engine crane/hoist. Done some reading on this too, but still not found an ideal solution. My engine crane gets a lot of use, so I don't really want to have to disassemble and hang it on the wall. At the same time, I do want to get it out of the way when not in use, and make it easy to clean up... Any ideas? I've been thinking I will need to build a cupboard for it, but I'm just not sure where at this point, and it will take up a lot of space....

All thoughts/questions/suggestions (whether related to the above questions or not) will be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Andrew.

 

[1/2 Cup]

I spend way too much time on this site at the best of times and I missed your thread

You have a beautiful property, wow, I live in town and would die for some acreage like that. What size is your block?

I really like your plans for the shed, what brand have you gone with?
You have obviously been doing a fair bit of research

I would personally keep your container as you cant ever get enough storage space, IMHO perhaps paint it a green to blend in then either put a screen up or grow a creeper over it. Are you in a fire prone area?

Keep up the great work and the posts coming Andrew.

 

[metalhead140]

Nice looking home and property!

Thank you very much! We are very happy with it. I have to be honest... the surrounding land has been divided up into lots for sale, so it will not always be so peaceful/quiet (and that 'unknown' factor is probably how we were able to afford it), but it's been divided into 2.5 to 6 acre lots and we are on the top of the hill, so it still should be nice and stay reasonably quiet/private.

Looks like a really good start. Where in NSW are you? I'm also a BMC car fan.

That machinery shed looks like it would be really easy to close in. You could even concrete the section you close in and put a roll up door on it.

Thanks. The house is in Clarence Town (40 minutes north of Newcastle, where I work). I agree on the shed, and that was the original thought we had, however it's not in budget now, and it does provide useful space as it is for parking the tractor and a couple of cars. There has also been discussion about maybe turning a bay or part of a bay into a luce box - my wife has a horse, and we have been considering another in the not-too-distant future. We will wait and see. Longer term our preferred option may be to keep it as is (or enclose one bay perhaps) and build another shed. It's 11m x 7m though, so very useful additional space that we will have to work out how to best utilise.

I take it you have a mini? I was always keen on one, but have never quite been able to get used to the upright driving position in those I've driven. Awesome little cars though! My Midget is basically a rear wheel drive mini without the practicality... Loads of fun!

 

[metalhead140]

I spend way too much time on this site at the best of times and I missed your thread

You have a beautiful property, wow, I live in town and would die for some acreage like that. What size is your block?

I really like your plans for the shed, what brand have you gone with?
You have obviously been doing a fair bit of research

I would personally keep your container as you cant ever get enough storage space, IMHO perhaps paint it a green to blend in then either put a screen up or grow a creeper over it. Are you in a fire prone area?

Keep up the great work and the posts coming Andrew.

Thanks 1/2 Cup, I've spent quite a lot of time reading your threads actually! I wish I had some of your skills and equipment, but I give pretty much anything a go, and it normally turns out alright. Thanks for the compliments on the property, we are very happy with it, we have 3.2 acres (or will have on Friday).

I have gone with an Advanced AutoQuip AL3000BG (http://www.aaq.net.au/shop/detail/autolift-al-3000bg), most of the others we looked at didn't go short enough to work well with the Midget. We liked the idea (given the limited space) of having a hoist that was completely out of the way when not in use, hence the scissor lift, further fuelled by reading threads on here.

Thanks for the suggestions on the container, that echoes some of my thoughts too. We are listed/zoned as being a fire prone area but there is a fair bit of cleared land all around us, and a reasonably major road (with cleared properties on the other side) between us and state forest, so I'm not too concerned about that, fortunately.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Cheers,

Andrew.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Let me take some time (in the next day or so) to digest some of your questions and I will post some of my thoughts.

 

[1/2 Cup]

I have been pondering over your pics and your ideas for the garage/ workshop so here's my thoughts.

Your situation is not that dissimilar to mine in terms of space however you have the advantage of the machinery shed and using the container as storage potentially.
I understand you can't build Rome in a day as I had budget constraints when I built mine and still do but your a long way there with your planning for that long term goal. The mistake I made was not planning in the first place then having to do stuff twice.

1. The container, first of all locate it in a place that it does not take away from the aesthetics of your place, paint it, screen it and before you set it down put down a load of gravel then raise it up six inches or so on some concrete blocks for air flow.

2. Insulation is a must.
3. Plan for your electricals and make provision for the future.
4. Ceiling, insulate and use recessed, for clearance, 2 x 36 watt fittings with triphosphor tubes and diffusers.
5. Batten out and line the walls.
6. Split system AC unit.
7. Use one bay of the machinery shed for one of the cars.
8. Shelving you can often pick up some nice second hand Brown built on Gumtree or EBAY.
9. Storage tubs with lids.
10. Where possible stick to the same brands in terms of shelving, storage systems and tubs, it looks far better than a miss mash of storage solutions.

I think you have the rest well and truly covered.

See how you go and keep us posted.

Cheers

 

[metalhead140]

Thanks 1/2 Cup, you were up early! Appreciate your thoughts a lot.

1. Yeh, we will have to try and work this out. As you can see in the photos, our land is pretty open, so will have to work out where to put it and how to camouflage it, but if possible it will definitely make life easier in terms of storage options.
2. Yep, agreed. Already been thinking about this to some extent. There is 6 double power points in the garage already, which is a good start, but I will be checking if the garage is on it's own circuit and running some more. I need a 15A supply for the hoist too, so will add some other 15A outlets for running welders etc.
4. That matches my thoughts, except that I had read it was better not to use recessed lights (less light output?). Apart from avoiding being in the way of the hoist, any other reason you recommend the recessed lights? Currently the entire garage is lit by 2 single 4 foot fluoros... Definitely not enough. Again, need to check what else is on the circuit before we work out the best way to get some additional lights.
5. Yeh, I think lining the walls is probably the go, though we don't have the budget right now and would want to do it early (too hard once everything is in). Will have to think a bit more about that. Any thoughts on what's best to use for lining? I'm thinking gyprock wouldn't be much good, perhaps fibro sheets like you'd use in a kitchen or bathroom? Or is thin sheets of ply a better idea? Or something else?
6. Yep, split system AC is the plan, but it won't be for a while. Need to plan for it in the space though I suppose.
7. Yeh, that's part of the plan too. Have to work out what we're going to do with the shed (close in and/or concrete or not, part or all?) and make plans from there.
8. Thanks for the recommendation on shelving. I've been keeping an eye out, though ideally we'd prefer something we can close a door on to avoid dust becoming such an issue. Can always put some doors on shelves though I suppose. Leaning towards making a lot of it ourselves, but on the other hand time is always scarce for us.
9. Agreed these are a good option for storing a lot of things.
10. Good advice, thanks.

Any thoughts on my question about storing large/heavy parts (engines etc)? I guess if we do keep the container then it will make life a bit easier from that point of view.

Cheers and thanks,

Andrew.

 

[metalhead140]

I thought something like this for lighting should do the trick (along with some bench lighting in the cupboards over the benches etc if needed):



I was envisaging all ceiling lighting being twin 4 foot fluoros, obviously switched such that not all need to be on at once. Probably one switch to light 2-3 lights across the garage (for parking, or grabbing something/walking through at night), then the rest probably on 2 switches, one front and one for rear? Any local lighting (over benches, under hoist etc) to be switched at location. Any thoughts on this plan? Any links for the fittings you were suggesting?

Thanks again,

Andrew.

 

[metalhead140]

Another question, to anyone reading; what height is normal for workbenches? The 'hefty bench' in the images is an existing bench we own, that is about 97cm tall (and has a ~3" thick cast top on it cut from a press plate used to make weathertex), but we will probably be remaking it anyway to improve storage underneath. It seems like a decent height, but is higher than the standard 900mm for kitchen benchtops, and neither my wife or I are taller than average. I hadn't really thought much about bench height in the past (just used whatever I had available), but what do people think is a good height for a bench? I had figured it made sense to have most of the benches in the garage the same height, but maybe it is better to vary height depending on purpose? Any and all thoughts appreciated!

Thanks,

Andrew.

 

[1/2 Cup]

I thought something like this for lighting should do the trick (along with some bench lighting in the cupboards over the benches etc if needed):



I was envisaging all ceiling lighting being twin 4 foot fluoros, obviously switched such that not all need to be on at once. Probably one switch to light 2-3 lights across the garage (for parking, or grabbing something/walking through at night), then the rest probably on 2 switches, one front and one for rear? Any local lighting (over benches, under hoist etc) to be switched at location. Any thoughts on this plan? Any links for the fittings you were suggesting?

Thanks again,

Andrew.

I like your lighting plan, go for the 3 rows, independently switched and 2 wayed is a great idea and as you say some task lights over benches as well.

Purchase your lights from an electrical wholesaler (most of their contractor lines are ok) and not from the big box stores. Go for the ones with electronic ballasts and I like the triphospher tubes that give a bluish light, personal taste I guess.

My lights in the work shop are suspended and I have used recessed ones in the suspended ceiling of the office / garage section.

Ceiling mounted is ok, I have no issues with it at all, its a personal thing once again.

 

[sandmanracing]

Work bench height really depends on what you want to use them for I find.

I made mine to fit over the Maxim 56" cabinets and to also have them at a better height for being able to stand up and assemble items without needing to bend down. I think the height of mine end up around the 1090mm mark (70mm rails and 22mm top with 40mm clearance on the top of the Maxim box.

Good choice on the Maxim cabinets too - I have a range of them and they are excellently priced for what you get. Free delivery also helps at the moment!

Just a few other opinions:

1. Insulate - I cannot stress this enough and you may find you can get away with a fan rather than AC down the track.

2. Roof space - line the roof, but ensure you use a fire rated board between the garage and house on the vertical section. This will help to slow flames from passing between the two areas within the roof, and should also help to seal from any fumes from entering the house.

3. Wall Material - I have used particle board prior, at $6 per sheet, but will be using MDF on a new project as I already have it. Many second hand places will have 2400x1200 sheets for $10 or so, and it is solid enough to be able to take some knocks and bumps.

4. Lighting - I think you may be going a bit over the top, but have maybe 5 lights (2x1x2 config, left bank to right) so when you just need to look for something quickly you don't blow a new hole in the ozone layer! (jk) The remaining lights could then be switched on in banks (left, centre and right) so you can adjust the amount you need as required. Also consider LED tubes for these. I also still prefer a fixed halogen or LED over moving equipment (lathe, drill press, saws) for a safety aspect.

Cheers,

Webber

 

[metalhead140]

I like your lighting plan, go for the 3 rows, independently switched and 2 wayed is a great idea and as you say some task lights over benches as well.

Purchase your lights from an electrical wholesaler (most of their contractor lines are ok) and not from the big box stores. Go for the ones with electronic ballasts and I like the triphospher tubes that give a bluish light, personal taste I guess.

My lights in the work shop are suspended and I have used recessed ones in the suspended ceiling of the office / garage section.

Ceiling mounted is ok, I have no issues with it at all, its a personal thing once again.

Thanks for the tips. I am not sure yet whether I will go for surface mounted or hanging, and I was originally thinking recessed as you suggested, but read on here somewhere that it wasn't a good idea as it resulted in less light output? Perhaps because most recessed lights use a cover? I can't recall to be honest.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Thanks for the tips. I am not sure yet whether I will go for surface mounted or hanging, and I was originally thinking recessed as you suggested, but read on here somewhere that it wasn't a good idea as it resulted in less light output? Perhaps because most recessed lights use a cover? I can't recall to be honest.

The surface mounting would be your most cost effective option for sure.
I have a 1 - 3 x 40 watt recessed, with diffuser, unit in the kitchen as well and with out a doubt you would have some loss for sure however it still has a nice spread of light.

 

[metalhead140]

Received the phone call an hour ago, the house is ours!

Work bench height really depends on what you want to use them for I find.

I made mine to fit over the Maxim 56" cabinets and to also have them at a better height for being able to stand up and assemble items without needing to bend down. I think the height of mine end up around the 1090mm mark (70mm rails and 22mm top with 40mm clearance on the top of the Maxim box.

Good choice on the Maxim cabinets too - I have a range of them and they are excellently priced for what you get. Free delivery also helps at the moment!

Just a few other opinions:

1. Insulate - I cannot stress this enough and you may find you can get away with a fan rather than AC down the track.

2. Roof space - line the roof, but ensure you use a fire rated board between the garage and house on the vertical section. This will help to slow flames from passing between the two areas within the roof, and should also help to seal from any fumes from entering the house.

3. Wall Material - I have used particle board prior, at $6 per sheet, but will be using MDF on a new project as I already have it. Many second hand places will have 2400x1200 sheets for $10 or so, and it is solid enough to be able to take some knocks and bumps.

4. Lighting - I think you may be going a bit over the top, but have maybe 5 lights (2x1x2 config, left bank to right) so when you just need to look for something quickly you don't blow a new hole in the ozone layer! (jk) The remaining lights could then be switched on in banks (left, centre and right) so you can adjust the amount you need as required. Also consider LED tubes for these. I also still prefer a fixed halogen or LED over moving equipment (lathe, drill press, saws) for a safety aspect.

Cheers,

Webber

Webber,

Thanks for the thoughts on workbench height. We'll have to do some trial and error I think. I suspect 1090mm would be a bit tall though, for us, but will have to see. Probably be great for my 6+foot mates!

The Maxim cabinets are great. My wife Jenna bought me mine (top and bottom) for my birthday a few years ago, and it is easily the best cabinet for the price (and better than many a lot more expensive) I've seen. Several mates have since bought them, one has bought several!

1. Yes, insulation is in the plan, though as with everything else, cost is a consideration. It is already hugely better than our previous colorbond shed - on a hot day it's a revelation to discover that it's cooler inside than out...

2. Yep, roof space is already seperated from the house roof space by fire proof board, thanks for the tip though.

3. MDF might be a good option... Can hang light stuff off it, has a nice smooth finish already, can be found reasonably cheap. Thanks for the idea.

4. That was my initial reaction too (over the top) as it has been for everyone I've shown it too, but it actually comes in under the recommended 100 foot candle figure based on the spreadsheet linked to in a post on this forum. Not much under mind you, 92 foot candles. According to the information there I should have an additional 2 twin fluoro fittings (to reach 100 foot candle)... Definitely will be dividing up the switching. As I said, I reckon 1 switch to turn on 2-3 lights through the garage, then the rest switched in banks.

Interested to hear any more of your thoughts on LED or Halogen vs fluoro. I was keen on LED before I started reading (thinking reduced heat and power consumption) but everything I read said fluoro was a better option, and at least as power efficient. I hadn't thought about any safety aspect? Do you just mean visibility is better when not using fluoro light? Please tell me more!

Oh, and it looks like this is your first post, so thanks, and welcome! I haven't been posting here long myself, but with so much great information it's addictive...

Cheers,

Andrew.

 

[metalhead140]

The surface mounting would be your most cost effective option for sure.
I have a 1 - 3 x 40 watt recessed, with diffuser, unit in the kitchen as well and with out a doubt you would have some loss for sure however it still has a nice spread of light.

Yeh, well cost is certainly an issue (when isn't it?!), so surface mount is probably the go, provided we can keep it out of the way of things up high (mostly cars on the hoist), and if we go with a layout similar to what I posted earlier then that should be fine I think. Not sure we can afford it straight up, but again, if we have a plan then it gives us something to plan/aim for.

Cheers and thanks,

Andrew.

 

[metalhead140]

Cheers,

Webber

He Webber,

Just had a look at your website, looks like neat gear. My brother has built himself a setup, I think it's based around the Logitech G27 based on appearance/memory. Pretty cool stuff, he's fairly serious about a couple of the online racing simulations.

Cheers,

Andrew.

 

[sandmanracing]

Cheers for that Andrew - I still have a large amount of simulation products to load up as it doesn't mention any of the motion or professional range we do.

As for the lighting around machines, it comes down to oscillation. Fluro's are notorious for flickering, and around rotating machines it can appear as a strobe effect. While modern ballast systems have largely dealt away with this issue, not all of the cheaper tube setups offer this option.

And as for LEDs, I have started to change the lights here over from Halogen to LEDs in the house due to the heat produced by the normal globes with recessed pods. The light output has been better and it not a "bright white" which they suffered from earlier. At some stage in the next few months I will be replacing the tubes with the LED equivalent as I remodel the garage at my parents old place.

LED tubes are also a safer alternative, in that they are not a glass tube, nor are they lined with phosphor. Running costs (with the amount you have especially) are reduced by over 80% too.

If you visit the LEDware.com.au site, it will give you an idea of the range on offer, including Hi Bay and Floodlights. Can definitely find better pricing though.

 

[metalhead140]

Thanks for the tips. I do know what you mean with the fluoro flicker, but hadn't really taken it into consideration. I've always had fluoro lighting in the garage, but it might be worth further considering something else. As I say, I had been thinking LED until I started reading on here. The posts I have seen on LED fluoro equivalents have said that for the light output the running costs (wattage) are basically the same, or even in favour of fluoros. I.e. that if an LED light is substantially lower in wattage than the fluoro that it will also be lower in light output... Guess I've got to do some more reading on this, but the other side of it was that when I started looking at the number of lights to put up, I think the cost in LEDs would be prohibitive. I will look into it more though.

I do agree on the LED replacements for halogen. Inside the house has halogen downlights throughout, and I hope to replace them with LED ASAP. LED downlights are great in my (admittedly limited) experience, can get similar light output (or higher if wanted) without the heat output that you get with the halogens.

 

[sandmanracing]

While the cost of LEDs can be expensive up front, it pays to look at the options.

Some places will sell you expensive units that are complete, where as you can typically buy a 4ft tube (if you shop around) for around $32 which is 1850Lumens and 20W. With a white semi gloss ceiling, you can also improve the output's reflection.

For most house equivalent globes, you should be aiming around the $10-15 mark depending on the Watts rating.

My Dad and I got around the flicker option by grabbing a desk lamp and wall mounting it, which means we can move it to position it correctly, then move it out of the way. Think it was the best $20 we spent at Bunnings on that part of the shed.

I know what you are saying about the output, but like with many newer forms of technology you can look outside the box for solutions before making your final choice.

 

[1/2 Cup]

While the cost of LEDs can be expensive up front, it pays to look at the options.

Some places will sell you expensive units that are complete, where as you can typically buy a 4ft tube (if you shop around) for around $32 which is 1850Lumens and 20W. With a white semi gloss ceiling, you can also improve the output's reflection.

For most house equivalent globes, you should be aiming around the $10-15 mark depending on the Watts rating.

My Dad and I got around the flicker option by grabbing a desk lamp and wall mounting it, which means we can move it to position it correctly, then move it out of the way. Think it was the best $20 we spent at Bunnings on that part of the shed.



I know what you are saying about the output, but like with many newer forms of technology you can look outside the box for solutions before making your final choice.

Some good advice that sandmanracing has given, I have to admit I need to explore LEDs as well as I have 20+ Halogens in the house,

I am going to get some samples from my electrical wholesaler to try at night in the near future.

Congratulations on sealing the house deal.

 

[metalhead140]

Done a bit more reading on LED's, and what I've read backed up what I was saying above, it seems that LED's only achieve a similar amount of lumens/watt as a regular 4 foot fluoro. This means that though they are roughly half the wattage, you need twice as many to put out the same amount of light! And that's before you take the upfront cost into the equation. Like I say, I was quite keen on LED lighting for the garage until I started doing some reading. Have a look at these links:

http://forums.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/topic2189.html

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2118224

http://planetled.com.au/blog/why-we-dont-sell-led-tube-replacements-yet/

Funnily enough, the company in that last link above now are selling tubes, even though a quick look at their specs tells you that everything in their above post is still true:

http://www.planetled.com.au/indoor/led-tubes

Even if they throw a bit 'nicer' light, I can't see spending 3+ times as much up front for half as much light... I may well use some LED lighting for the local bench/tool lighting though.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Done a bit more reading on LED's, and what I've read backed up what I was saying above, it seems that LED's only achieve a similar amount of lumens/watt as a regular 4 foot fluoro. This means that though they are roughly half the wattage, you need twice as many to put out the same amount of light! And that's before you take the upfront cost into the equation. Like I say, I was quite keen on LED lighting for the garage until I started doing some reading. Have a look at these links:

http://forums.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/topic2189.html

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2118224

http://planetled.com.au/blog/why-we-dont-sell-led-tube-replacements-yet/

Funnily enough, the company in that last link above now are selling tubes, even though a quick look at their specs tells you that everything in their above post is still true:

http://www.planetled.com.au/indoor/led-tubes

Even if they throw a bit 'nicer' light, I can't see spending 3+ times as much up front for half as much light... I may well use some LED lighting for the local bench/tool lighting though.

 

[sandmanracing]

Whilst I do understand the arguments on Whingepool, I don't get involved on those.

I'll just sum up my experiences with LEDs and garage lighting as such:

A friend complained that his new LED tubes were not bright enough. He had a dark painted roof (near black) and a red painted floor. He also had the same brightness problem with the standard tubes. After some convincing, he changed the colour of the rood to an off white, almost light grey colour and it made a huge difference - either with LED or standard tubes.

In other words, the lighting is part of a package, and can be impacted by your other choices. Tubes are more for flooding an area with light - most detail work is best done with additional spotlighting.

Anyway, let's move on from LEDs. Congrats on securing the property, now you can properly set about planning your build phases!

 

[metalhead140]

Whilst I do understand the arguments on Whingepool, I don't get involved on those.

I'll just sum up my experiences with LEDs and garage lighting as such:

A friend complained that his new LED tubes were not bright enough. He had a dark painted roof (near black) and a red painted floor. He also had the same brightness problem with the standard tubes. After some convincing, he changed the colour of the rood to an off white, almost light grey colour and it made a huge difference - either with LED or standard tubes.

In other words, the lighting is part of a package, and can be impacted by your other choices. Tubes are more for flooding an area with light - most detail work is best done with additional spotlighting.

Anyway, let's move on from LEDs. Congrats on securing the property, now you can properly set about planning your build phases!

No question paint/wall/ceiling/floor colour makes a huge difference! Anyway, as you said, moving on. Thanks for the congrats.

----

Sorry I haven't posted here in the last couple of weeks. Still haven't got internet on at the new place. Not a huge amount of progress in the garage to report unfortunately, but we have:
- Cleared out a lot of the garbage that was in there
- Picked up the hoist (sitting in the corner at the moment)
- Started cutting a hole in the slab for the hoist.

We have also got everything moved, done some earthworks around the property, and dug ~50 post holes. We had hoped that in my 2 weeks off work we would get the fencing completed and the hoist installed... But as always, all the little things (and there's lots of them when moving house!) took much longer than expected.

We struck an issue with cutting the slab. We hired a concrete saw and cut the area we wanted to remove into small enough pieces to remove by hand. We pulled a couple out, and then I returned the concrete saw. My wife and brother in law continued removing the rest of the pieces, only to find when they got to the last row that they wouldn't budge. I got back, and we soon realised that this last row overlaps the middle of the slab... Where there's a thicker beam of concrete. Damn! We have started breaking it up using a big sledgehammer. Not sure yet if we will use that to remove all the rest, or perhaps hire a jackhammer. I've also borrowed a big 9" grinder with masonry cutting disk that might help (by scaring up the surfaces to break them out). Not sure yet how we'll proceed, we switched to working on the fencing when we struck this issue.

By the way, for anyone wondering, the strength of the slab will not be an issue, we will be tying the new in with the old and the end result will be much stronger. I spoke with my brother about it from that point of view, he designs slabs (among other things) at his work.

I haven't got any pictures from the last week or so, but here are a few from the first 1.5 weeks. I'm sure we took some more before/as we cleared out the garage too, I'll have to find them and load them up later

Cutting the slab:


First piece pulled up:


Nearly all pulled up. The line of blocks closest is the problem area. I need to grab a photo as it is now, with them half broken out:


And some other photos which may be of interest:

The first load (of 2, for now) of fencing timber, all white mahogany, guessing ~1.5t here. Our trusty old F250 has done an amazing amount of work for us over the last few years, and worked very hard over the past couple of weeks. Here it is sitting between the side of the garage and the machinery shed:


The old MF tractor we negotiated in with the house, with the post hole digger attachment we picked up for it. We weren't even sure if it ran, but I'm a sucker for old tractors. With a bit of fiddling it fired right up, and runs well though pretty smokey. I re-wired most of it this past Monday, so now it can be started without 3 hands - previously required 1 hand on key, 1 hand squirting 'Start Your *******' in the intake, and 1 hand holding the main power wire so it's not shorting out and holds the contact in the starter at the right angle... Now I can start it myself! The slasher behind was also negotiated into the house purchase, as was a ride on mower.:

 

[jonahbones]

Re: Our 6.6mx9.3m (~22'x31') attached garage/workshop build (renovation?) in Australi

Re LED in our part of the world check out Brightgreen LED, lumen output, cri, driver circuit is all spot on. Too much product on the market that has just been sourced from whoever as opposed to designed for the job.

 

[metalhead140]

Thanks for the tip. I will be looking for LEDs for the house downlights, and maybe some bench and hoist area lighting. What's your experience that leads you to recommend Brightgreen, if you don't mind my asking?

Cheers and thanks,

Andrew.

 

[panthersteve]

The first thing that struck me when reading your plans was in regard to your planned use of tiles for the floor. I would have thought that they could possibly introduce a few problems for you and am surprised that nobody else has mentioned it, maybe I am completely off track

Anyway I think they are not the best choice as you could end up with broken/cracked/chipped tiles if anything with a bit of weight was dropped. They would be a bit of a challenge to keep clean due to the grooves where there is grout and could possibly be a slip hazard when wet if the wrong type were used, if they were the grippy type then they would probably be porous and a problem with absorbing oil etc.

My suggestion is to go with an epoxy sealing system like what these people deal with http://www.seqepoxyflooring.com.au/

Cheers
Steve

 

[metalhead140]

Thanks Steve. I would have thought exactly the same thing before starting to read on here! However there is now a large number of people here who have done porcelain tile (much stronger than ceramic) in their garages and are very happy with it, and even a few that have done ceramic and been very happy with the results (12 gauge garage for instance). With narrow grout lines and dark grout they say that the grout lines are a non-issue for rolling things over and/or cleaning, and the right tiles aren't slippery when wet, nor porous, so clean very easily. Add in that it can be done substantially cheaper (using clearance tiles) than I have managed to find any decent epoxy, and the number of experiences I have read about on here about problems with epoxy lifting after a few years, and I am leaning pretty strongly towards the tiles. I also have laid tile before, so will be able to use skills and tools that I already own.

If I could get an epoxy floor for a comparable price that I was confident would stand up to time, abuse, and hot sticky tyres, then I would have a hard time deciding but would probably go with the epoxy purely to eliminate the grout lines.

If anyone has positive or negative experiences with tile or epoxy then I'd be very happy to hear them though, neither has been purchased yet and with budget running tight it is likely that neither will be for another few weeks at least.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Thanks for the update, settling in well to the new abode?

 

[metalhead140]

Thanks for the update, settling in well to the new abode?

Settling in great, thanks for asking! We are going to be really happy here. Lots of work to do, but we are really enjoying it, and the peace is just something else. Easily far and away the nicest place we've ever lived.

 

[Jc_401]

Mate! Looks nice. So jealous (even though i have my own new shed!)
Ill have to stop in and have a beer on my next trip north

 

[Bob Heine]

Another question, to anyone reading; what height is normal for workbenches? The 'hefty bench' in the images is an existing bench we own, that is about 97cm tall (and has a ~3" thick cast top on it cut from a press plate used to make weathertex), but we will probably be remaking it anyway to improve storage underneath. It seems like a decent height, but is higher than the standard 900mm for kitchen benchtops, and neither my wife or I are taller than average. I hadn't really thought much about bench height in the past (just used whatever I had available), but what do people think is a good height for a bench? I had figured it made sense to have most of the benches in the garage the same height, but maybe it is better to vary height depending on purpose? Any and all thoughts appreciated!

Thanks,

Andrew.

You have found a beautiful place in NSW. I lived in Manly for 2 years and had to contact the neighbors before opening the awning windows.

I don't really understand the science behind workbench design. I found a human factors measurement that worked for me. Bend your arm 90-degrees and measure from the floor to your elbow. I'm about 180cm (5'11") and my elbow is about 104cm (42") off the floor. Most of my garage bench space is lower, at 94cm (37") but one section is at that "ideal" height for me.

Aside from any scientific evidence I do find myself moving many small projects to the taller bench. The down side to the taller bench is the space between the bench surface and the cabinets above.

I only use these bench surfaces for small assembly projects -- I have a 6mx4m (18'x12') workshop at the back of the property for the large and dirty projects. All of the benches in the workshop are 100cm (39") high because the radial arm saw table is that height.

A couple of important considerations. Jack Olsen's garage is about as efficient as they come and he made sure that all but one of the work surfaces are at the same height (I think it's 94cm [37"]). I prefer the taller benches mostly because of my age -- I'm turning 70 this year -- and I find myself bending over more with the shorter bench. Pretty soon I'll have to strap a tray under my chin to work on projects.

Before you lock in a bench height, set some of your existing benches to different heights (you probably have a few bricks or timber to make temporary spacers) and see which one feels right. Without thinking, you will probably find your ideal bench height -- it will be the one with the biggest pile of stuff on it. Of course lighting also affects all this and you may find yourself working at the bench with the best task lighting.

If you want a happy wife, ignore all this and just ask her how high the benches should be. Hopefully she won't suggest bathroom sink height (76cm [30"]).

 

[metalhead140]

Mate! Looks nice. So jealous (even though i have my own new shed!)
Ill have to stop in and have a beer on my next trip north

Thanks mate! You and anyone else are welcome any time you're passing through, just drop me a message. Have you got any pictures of your shed?

You have found a beautiful place in NSW. I lived in Manly for 2 years and had to contact the neighbors before opening the awning windows.

I don't really understand the science behind workbench design. I found a human factors measurement that worked for me. Bend your arm 90-degrees and measure from the floor to your elbow. I'm about 180cm (5'11") and my elbow is about 104cm (42") off the floor. Most of my garage bench space is lower, at 94cm (37") but one section is at that "ideal" height for me.

Aside from any scientific evidence I do find myself moving many small projects to the taller bench. The down side to the taller bench is the space between the bench surface and the cabinets above.

I only use these bench surfaces for small assembly projects -- I have a 6mx4m (18'x12') workshop at the back of the property for the large and dirty projects. All of the benches in the workshop are 100cm (39") high because the radial arm saw table is that height.

A couple of important considerations. Jack Olsen's garage is about as efficient as they come and he made sure that all but one of the work surfaces are at the same height (I think it's 94cm [37"]). I prefer the taller benches mostly because of my age -- I'm turning 70 this year -- and I find myself bending over more with the shorter bench. Pretty soon I'll have to strap a tray under my chin to work on projects.

Before you lock in a bench height, set some of your existing benches to different heights (you probably have a few bricks or timber to make temporary spacers) and see which one feels right. Without thinking, you will probably find your ideal bench height -- it will be the one with the biggest pile of stuff on it. Of course lighting also affects all this and you may find yourself working at the bench with the best task lighting.

If you want a happy wife, ignore all this and just ask her how high the benches should be. Hopefully she won't suggest bathroom sink height (76cm [30"]).

Thanks, it is a lovely spot! We still can't really believe it's ours to be honest. I know what you mean about Manly/Sydney, we were stuck in Sydney for 7 years, and have only managed to move back to the Hunter/Newcastle at the start of 2013. Even up here things are getting a lot busier/more crowded around Newcastle, and we have been very lucky to get such a relatively quiet spot within a reasonable drive from my work in Newcastle.

I appreciate your thoughts on bench height. I take it the taller bench you refer to is the area with the sink? Another thing I have been told is that a bench should be mounted such that an item in the vice is at elbow height, this supposedly giving the best control for filing and other similar work on things clamped in the vice. This seems a bit 1 minded to me though, given that you are not always working on things secured in the vice? I had been intending to mount all or at least most benches at the same height as you suggest. Good idea though to set a few benches at different heights for now and see what works best for us. I don't think my wife would want something drastically different to me, as we are similar in height.

Thanks again for your thoughts,

Andrew.

 

[metalhead140]

Posting on another thread reminded me: Before starting to cut the slab we spent a day laying out the positions of everything with tape (you can see the tape in the first picture with the concrete saw). Most of what we had planned out on paper worked out well, but we went 100mm (4") deeper on the 'mounted tools' bench, and moved the hoist towards the house by 150mm (6"). Overall, it was definitely worth doing, we got a much better feel for the distances/spaces by laying it all out this way.

 

[metalhead140]

Well I got some more pictures. Sorry these are out of order with the others...

There's a hoist in the back there, underneath the plastic wrap. Also an engine crane, air compressor, concrete mixer...:





Unloaded and on the floor. This took a few hours, note that it's now dark outside!:



The next day, time to start clearing things out. As you can see, the previous owners left plenty of garbage for us...:







Everything out, laying out our plans with tape. The blue outline you can see is what I had planned out on paper, the grey outline further to the middle of the room is what we decided might be better once we started laying out and standing in the space:



Checking the fit with the largest vehicle likely to ever go on the hoist. There's more room than it looks like here, on the other side of the F250 there is enough room for a deep workbench and room to work at the bench or on the car. The F250 is well over the centre line of the garage.:





That night, truck out, remaining lines required for the hoists marked out (separate ramps and extension of hoist beyond ends of ramps):