To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Outbuilding grounding question ?

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
Is it not the case .... you do not need a ground when doing an outbuilding as the 4 wire cable is tied back to the ground at the main. As is the neutral ?

But, can you?

All of the outbuilding (old) on my new project have grounds .. and all have now been rewired ... the grounds are still there and connected.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,994
Location
Modesto, CA
Not sure what country youre in but in the US, code requires electrodes at all detached structures.

The EGC in the feeder is not the same as a grounding electrode and it doesnt serve the same purpose either so its not a substitute for grounding electrodes
 
OP
Y

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
Not sure what country youre in but in the US, code requires electrodes at all detached structures.

The EGC in the feeder is not the same as a grounding electrode and it doesnt serve the same purpose either so its not a substitute for grounding electrodes

SO .... I have it backwards .... this is a property I have in PA

You do need a ground at all the buildings ...


EDIT: Why no ground rod for a generator?
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
Ground rod for a generator all depends on how the generator is being installed and used. When installed and connected to a house wiring system then no ground rod is needed. If permanent free standing installed such as for a campsite then a ground rod should be installed.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,994
Location
Modesto, CA
I'm sure it occurs .... one of mine is out in the open.

The the ground rod only for lightning?

never heard of it before. generators are so low to the ground and the building grounding electrodes are all that is needed.

if your generator is not connected to a building electrical system then you need one, ie. standalone, like PattenP said
 
Last edited:

William Payne

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
7,673
Location
Wanganui, New Zealand
I’m in a completely different country so my experience will be different to yours.

When I did the wiring on my shop I ran the appropriate cable for my application from the supply at in my case my house with no earth cable. So for me I have a switchboard with it’s own earth at my house and another switchboard with its own earth at my shop.

In fact I didn’t even run an earth cable between my house and shop. They are grounded completely independently from each other.
 
Last edited:

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,994
Location
Modesto, CA
When I did the wiring on my shop I ran the appropriate cable for my application from the supply at in my case my house with no earth cable. So for me I have a switchboard with it’s own earth at my house and another switchboard with its own earth at my shop.

In fact I didn’t even run an earth cable between my house and shop. They are grounded completely independently from each other.

so in australia you dont run an equipment grounding conductor for the feeder between buildings? how does the breaker clear a fault? Is the neutral bonded? a grounding electrode or what you guys call an earthing conductor, wont allow the breaker to clear fault current because the earth is not a low impedance pathway for fault current. that is the job of the equipment grounding conductor
 

William Payne

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
7,673
Location
Wanganui, New Zealand
so in australia you dont run an equipment grounding conductor for the feeder between buildings? how does the breaker clear a fault? Is the neutral bonded? a grounding electrode or what you guys call an earthing conductor, wont allow the breaker to clear fault current because the earth is not a low impedance pathway for fault current. that is the job of the equipment grounding conductor

I have no idea how to explain what you just asked so I’m going to describe how my setup is. In my case I have neutral screen cable going from the pillar at my boundary fence to my switchboard at my house. For a single phase supply it would be single core neutral screen. In my case it is 3 core neutral screen.

That cable connect to my meter in my switchboard I have a main switch, big fuses for the main and breakers which covers the single phase supply to my house. There is an earthing rod beneath that switchboard at the house as it is all outside.

From that switchboard going underground to my workshop is another neutral screened cable in my case 3 core neutral screen which goes to another panel in my workshop where there is a main switch and the breakers for my workshop. The workshop panel has its own grounding Rod. So I have a grounding Rod at my house for that panel and a grounding rod at the workshop for that panel but both are fed off the same supply.

You could I imagine have the earth for the outbuilding go back to the house but I didn’t do that in my case. I just went with what my electricians told me to do for my application
 

bczygan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,002
Location
DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
From elsewhere on the net:

What happens in OZ is similar to most of the world; the odd one is the US.

Power is distributed as three phase with 120 degrees between each leg or phase. It is wired in a star configuration with the centre point being neutral. Neutral is connected to earth at the generator and at other major distribution points, substations and switchboards etc. throughout the system. Hence it is call an MEN (multiple earth neutral) system.

The voltage between phases is root 3 times the voltage between a phase and earth, eg. 415 volt between each phase -- 240 volts between any phase and earth. (as Robert described)

It is simple, reliable and uniform thought out the country

At a venue power will be supplied at 415 volts 3 phase. 32 amp 5 pin sockets are the most common, and 240-volt single-phase sockets 10 or 15 amp sockets are also the most common.

The colours are green or green with yellow for earth. For single phase, blue is neutral and brown is active.

In three-phase configurations it should be the same but often confusion can arise with various colour coding in different cables resulting in neutral and active are transposed … so … always check, it does not happen very often but it does happen and you will get 415 volts out of a 240 volt power point!
 

alfredeneuman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Messages
4,580
Location
Fullerton, CA
What happens in OZ is similar to most of the world; the odd one is the US.
Power is distributed as three phase with 120 degrees between each leg or phase. It is wired in a star configuration with the centre point being neutral.
Neutral is connected to earth at the generator and at other major distribution points, substations and switchboards etc. throughout the system. Hence it is call an MEN (multiple earth neutral) system.
Wired in Star configuration=Wired in Wye configuration (which it's called in the US and the majority of 3 phase systems are wired) 120/208 and 480/277 are examples.
In the US "earthing"=grounding and the same items are grounded, thus it is a multiple ground system.
Don't believe all you read on the internet ;)
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

cchamelin

Active member
Joined
Apr 11, 2021
Messages
38
Location
Newport News VA
Keep in mind that local codes also apply and can be different. Where I live, we have two cities that border each other, and one city requires the home to have two grounding rods six feet apart while the other city only requires a single grounding rod. And of course, there’s no technical justification provided for the differing codes. I’d recommend you check with your local code and/or codes compliance inspectors.
 

bruce_taylor

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
12
Location
FL
I put in 2 6ft grounding rods with #4 copper, I thought is was better to be safe than sorry, rather have and not need than need and not have, no matter what the code says
 

cchamelin

Active member
Joined
Apr 11, 2021
Messages
38
Location
Newport News VA
I put in 2 6ft grounding rods with #4 copper, I thought is was better to be safe than sorry, rather have and not need than need and not have, no matter what the code says

When you’re dealing with your own stuff, the cost of being safe vs. sorry is usually small and worth it. If you were doing this for an entire new construction development, then the extra cost could be significant. But for my own stuff, I also tend to take the more conservative, extra safety route.
 

rlitman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
24,591
Location
Long Island
so in australia you dont run an equipment grounding conductor for the feeder between buildings? how does the breaker clear a fault? Is the neutral bonded? a grounding electrode or what you guys call an earthing conductor, wont allow the breaker to clear fault current because the earth is not a low impedance pathway for fault current. that is the job of the equipment grounding conductor

Actually, Ohm's law changed in 2008, but only in the United States:
https://iaeimagazine.org/features/two-buildings-common-service-grounding-requirements/

;)

Keep in mind that local codes also apply and can be different. Where I live, we have two cities that border each other, and one city requires the home to have two grounding rods six feet apart while the other city only requires a single grounding rod. And of course, there’s no technical justification provided for the differing codes. I’d recommend you check with your local code and/or codes compliance inspectors.

There very well may be technical justifications. The double ground rod thing is because a single rod (depending on what code version you're on), may only be sufficient if you can prove a sufficiently low ground resistance (this is not a DIY test), whereas the double rod bypasses that requirement. Then again, in many locations, local soil conditions are known to be highly conductive, and a second rod would be pointless.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,994
Location
Modesto, CA
I have no idea how to explain what you just asked so I’m going to describe how my setup is. In my case I have neutral screen cable going from the pillar at my boundary fence to my switchboard at my house. For a single phase supply it would be single core neutral screen. In my case it is 3 core neutral screen.

That cable connect to my meter in my switchboard I have a main switch, big fuses for the main and breakers which covers the single phase supply to my house. There is an earthing rod beneath that switchboard at the house as it is all outside.

From that switchboard going underground to my workshop is another neutral screened cable in my case 3 core neutral screen which goes to another panel in my workshop where there is a main switch and the breakers for my workshop. The workshop panel has its own grounding Rod. So I have a grounding Rod at my house for that panel and a grounding rod at the workshop for that panel but both are fed off the same supply.

You could I imagine have the earth for the outbuilding go back to the house but I didn’t do that in my case. I just went with what my electricians told me to do for my application

An equipment grounding conductor is different than a neutral. its sole purpose is to establish a low impedance pathway for carrying fault current to enable breakers to be able to clear the fault current by tripping and opening the circuit.

This low impedance pathway is established by bonding the neutral to the equipment ground at the main panel. this essential creates a line to neutral short when an ungrounded conductor contacts and shorts to a grounded object.

From elsewhere on the net:

What happens in OZ is similar to most of the world; the odd one is the US.

Power is distributed as three phase with 120 degrees between each leg or phase. It is wired in a star configuration with the centre point being neutral. Neutral is connected to earth at the generator and at other major distribution points, substations and switchboards etc. throughout the system. Hence it is call an MEN (multiple earth neutral) system.

The voltage between phases is root 3 times the voltage between a phase and earth, eg. 415 volt between each phase -- 240 volts between any phase and earth. (as Robert described)

It is simple, reliable and uniform thought out the country

At a venue power will be supplied at 415 volts 3 phase. 32 amp 5 pin sockets are the most common, and 240-volt single-phase sockets 10 or 15 amp sockets are also the most common.

The colours are green or green with yellow for earth. For single phase, blue is neutral and brown is active.

In three-phase configurations it should be the same but often confusion can arise with various colour coding in different cables resulting in neutral and active are transposed … so … always check, it does not happen very often but it does happen and you will get 415 volts out of a 240 volt power point!

Ummm the US has star wired electrical supplies. its technically called Wye. 208Y/120 and 480Y/277

Also the MEN system is used by most PoCos in the US on the high voltage side. My PoCo has a connection from neutral on the top of the pole to a ground rod at the base wherever there is a 3phase dip to a PAD transformer. So im not sure why youre saying the US is odd.

Also, prior to 2008, electrical systems in buildings had the MEN setup with a bonded neutral in every building with a subpanel.

But they changed this because they realized it created a potential for shock hazard should the neutral develop a bad connection.

The MEN setup should not be used on the load side of a meter past the main service panel or disconnect for this reason.

So before you call the US odd, you should understand why its done this way...

Actually, Ohm's law changed in 2008, but only in the United States:
https://iaeimagazine.org/features/two-buildings-common-service-grounding-requirements/

;)

that has NOTHING to do with whether grounding electrodes were required and has nothing to do with the 2 rod exemption to the ohms test.

The 2008 code change had to do with bonding of the neutral in subpanels. this was done to get rid of the potential for shock should the neutral develop a bad connection
 

rlitman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
24,591
Location
Long Island
...that has NOTHING to do with whether grounding electrodes were required and has nothing to do with the 2 rod exemption to the ohms test.

The 2008 code change had to do with bonding of the neutral in subpanels. this was done to get rid of the potential for shock should the neutral develop a bad connection

That was A change. The change I'm referring to is that 3-wire feeds were allowed to outbuildings in the past.
 

oldpliers1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2021
Messages
727
Wired in Star configuration=Wired in Wye configuration (which it's called in the US and the majority of 3 phase systems are wired) 120/208 and 480/277 are examples.
In the US "earthing"=grounding and the same items are grounded, thus it is a multiple ground system.
Don't believe all you read on the internet ;)
Hi Alfred e is the grounding wire bonded to the neutral conductor in USA electrical installations ( the white wire do you refer to it as hot ? ) or does the ground float at a different potential to the neutral conductor?
My best friend got killed of a floating earth , he had been a professional electrical inspector. Part of the job , one flash and your ash , pardon the dark humour. Regards Andy
 

Norcal

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
13,753
The neutral and grounding conductor are bonded at the main service only, after that they are separate but a grounding electrode is required at any outbuilding but it connected to the grounding conductor not the neutral with a 4-wire feeder at the outbuilding.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,994
Location
Modesto, CA
Hi Alfred e is the grounding wire bonded to the neutral conductor in USA electrical installations ( the white wire do you refer to it as hot ? ) or does the ground float at a different potential to the neutral conductor?
My best friend got killed of a floating earth , he had been a professional electrical inspector. Part of the job , one flash and your ash , pardon the dark humour. Regards Andy
checkout the electrical FAQs sticky. there are diagrams on there which will show you how we wire things here in the US
 

oldpliers1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2021
Messages
727
The neutral and grounding conductor are bonded at the main service only, after that they are separate but a grounding electrode is required at any outbuilding but it connected to the grounding conductor not the neutral with a 4-wire feeder at the outbuilding.
thank you so it relies on the bond at the main service ( Aussie Main Switchboard) say the outbuilding like at my place is 300 feet away from the main service, do you have trouble with impedance ? Some times we have to bond at the outbuilding so we have less than 1ohm between ground and neutral.
the closer the outbuilding the less impedance. You get it .
thanks for the education in USA systems. Regards Andy
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom