Outdoor Front Door Light Help Please

[drewcorvette]

I bought a new front door fixture to update the recessed old light that was from years ago. Usually its very straight forward to remove and replace with the new fixture but when i removed the recessed can i noticed their was no junction box to use the mounting bracket on the new fixture. Also i have a huge gap from the recessed light.

Its about 8" inches across from the side to side. I've seen recessed lighting to pendant type conversion kits but don't know if that will work. Any suggestions how to make this work?

 

[grounded-b]

Recessed lights usually do not have a junction box. They are directly wired to the fizture as you have found out.

What I would do, is get a fan mount bracket ( the type which expands it's gripping teeth into the ceiling joists as you twist the center bar ) and use this bracket to mount an octagon box where you want the new light to go.

If you need to, patch the oversized opening with some outdoor rated plywood, patch and paint to match existing. Then hang the new light fixture

Steve

 

[cybrdyke]

There was no junction box necessary for that fixture. You're in a pickle.
Are there ceiling joists up there? If so, you can get a retrofit ceiling box like Raco 936. You'll still need to patch that huge hole.
CD

 

[drewcorvette]

No ceiling joists, its an extension piece off the front of the house. See the images. Any other suggestions?

 

[Shiftless]

How about cutting a piece of 1/4 inch plywood big enough to cover the hole and overlap about 2 inches all the way around. Square or round..your choice.
Then cut a hole in the middle of the patch and install an old work box. Looks like you might need to extend the wires.
Then attach the patch with construction adhesive and short screws. Some filler will smooth the plywood edges. Or use molding. Prime and paint.

This might trigger the need to repaint the soffit in that area to better match up. It would on my 70 year old house.

I bet you’re having second thoughts about the whole “updating” movement.
You could just clean and polish the old fixture, put in a nice bright energy saving LED bulb, reinstall it and work on another project instead.

 

[driftpin]

I expect the easiest would be to make a plate overlapping the hole, the plate could be either 3/4" exterior-grade plywood, or metal. Use structural fasteners like SPAX screws to fasten it to the soffit, then mount your new light fixture to a new steel box in the center of that.

 

[drewcorvette]

Actually looking further in the hole i see wood on either side i don't know if you call i joists but wonder if i can take grounded-b's suggestion and use a Safe-t-brace for ceiling fans in the link below. i assume i just run the wires right through the plate?



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00027EWNW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Shiftless]

Actually looking further in the hole i see wood on either side i don't know if you call i joists but wonder if i can take grounded-b's suggestion and use a Safe-t-brace for ceiling fans in the link below. i assume i just run the wires right through the plate?



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00027EWNW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The framing supporting the soffit plywood would be your roof rafter tails.
They’re probably 24 inches on center (measure!) so keep that in mind when looking for electrical box mounting hardware.
You don’t run the wires through the plate, you cut a hole in the plate the same size as the electrical box. The wires go through the box and are secured with a cable clamp. The box is supported by your framing. The plate is just to cover the big hole left by removing your old fixture.
I assume you want the new box to be flush with the soffit.

 

[drewcorvette]

i got about 21" from side to side, yes i would image it would have to be flush to the soffit

 

[nadogail]

In a situation as I imagine you have, I would use an "Old Work" box.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Then cut a hole in the middle of the patch and install an old work box.

I don't know of a metal old work box built in an octagon style. The plastic O/W boxes aren't meant to be used with the armored cable.
ANY box will have to be mounted flush, or project beyond the plywood (because plywood's flammable).

 

[Innovate1]

If you want things to be flush you could just take a length of 2 x 4 slightly wider than the hole. Put some shims of plywood on each side to give the depth needed for the new work metal box screwed to the 2 x 4. Put in the hole and secure with a couple screws on each end. If you need to close the hole put some lumber or strips of plywood around the edge behind the existing plywood. Then screw plywood to fit the hole and putty/caulk around the edge if it will show. I wouldn't be supporting huge fixtures or fans that way but it's plenty strong to support a modest light fixture. The flex conduit that went to the old fixture goes to the new metal box.

 

[drewcorvette]

would it not be flush with Safe-t-brace bracket once the arms are extended?

 

[Skiff Builder]

I don't think your using the right kind of replacement fixture and forget the original under soffit (protected) location . Do what all my neighbors did- move the box down to the side wall ,as low as possible . Install a fixture with the highest output available and aim it directly across the street towards some ones house!
Obviously just kidding, think your location is best and did mine the same. Do see many the other way though

 

[Innovate1]

would it not be flush with Safe-t-brace bracket once the arms are extended?

It could be. Several ways to do this...

 

[drewcorvette]

sure I'll keep taking suggestions

 

[Dustball]

I would do similar to a drywall patch method but using wood instead. Cut a couple lengths of 1x4 and screw in place to act as backers. Cut a square of plywood of the right thickness (or shim as necessary) to fit into the square opening and screw to the wood backers (countersink the holes a bit). Cut a hole in the plywood square patch to fit a rework box and secure the box. Use wood filler to fill the small gap around the patch and the screw holes. Sand smooth and paint- install the new light afterwards.

 

[drewcorvette]

Good suggestions here. I rather try the ceiling expandable mount between two joists, I just don't know if it will flush enough. Do I need be concerned safety wise going this method?

 

[Terry D]

I would do similar to a drywall patch method but using wood instead. Cut a couple lengths of 1x4 and screw in place to act as backers. Cut a square of plywood of the right thickness (or shim as necessary) to fit into the square opening and screw to the wood backers (countersink the holes a bit). Cut a hole in the plywood square patch to fit a rework box and secure the box. Use wood filler to fill the small gap around the patch and the screw holes. Sand smooth and paint- install the new light afterwards.

I have done this before many times. You can also use one of those decorative medallions depending on what style fixture. You can fill it in with wood like you said and get a fixture larger than the old old and not even worry about finishing it off.

 

[drewcorvette]

The new fixture is bigger than than the hole itself so i don't have to plug anything up. I just need a way to hang it over that hole.

 

[Terry D]

The new fixture is bigger than than the hole itself so i don't have to plug anything up. I just need a way to hang it over that hole.

You will need to mount a box in the center of the hole for the fixture to mount on. You can use a remodeler fan brace that will extend rafter to rafter and has prongs that will stick into the rafter when tightened, as already said. Or fill it in with plywood, cut a 4 inch hole in the center and use a plastic remodel box. The fixture needs to mount to a ceiling box, so there are no open splices.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/RACO-1-Gan...rd-Ceiling-Fan-Ceiling-Electrical-Box/3127059


https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-1-G...ndard-Round-Ceiling-Electrical-Box/1000975984

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[grounded-b]

would it not be flush with Safe-t-brace bracket once the arms are extended?

The bracket is designed to leave the octagon box flush with the finished surface. It is designed for 1/2" drywall, so your 1/2" plywood will end up the same.

You will have to look at the instructions for the fan brace, to see if it calls for a 1 1/2" or a 2 1/8" deep octagon box.

Steve

 

[drewcorvette]

I think the better option is the https://tinyurl.com/4wvxmp8v. I guess the question is will it be flush enough to mount the fixture. Once the box is mounted just pop one of the holes for the wires, clamp is down and just make the connections. Does the box need a cover at all or just push the connections into the box and mount the fixture to it.

 

[grounded-b]

I think the better option is the https://tinyurl.com/4wvxmp8v. I guess the question is will it be flush enough to mount the fixture. Once the box is mounted just pop one of the holes for the wires, clamp is down and just make the connections. Does the box need a cover at all or just push the connections into the box and mount the fixture to it.

No box cover needed. The fixture will cover the box

 

[Terry D]

I think the better option is the https://tinyurl.com/4wvxmp8v. I guess the question is will it be flush enough to mount the fixture. Once the box is mounted just pop one of the holes for the wires, clamp is down and just make the connections. Does the box need a cover at all or just push the connections into the box and mount the fixture to it.

The fixture mounts to the box with 8/32 screws. There are holes in the fixture that will line up with the spacing of the screws on the box

 

[grounded-b]

The fixture mounts to the box with 8/32 screws. There are holes in the fixture that will line up with the spacing of the screws on the box

No. The fixture he showed, uses a fixture strap and a 1/4" pipe ****** to mount the fixture.

You mount the strap to the box with 8-32 RHMS and the fixture mounts to the ****** with a small locknut.

I would add a couple of wood screws through the back of the fixture into the plywood, to keep the fixture from rotating out of square with the soffit.

Steve

 

[Terry D]

No. The fixture he showed, uses a fixture strap and a 1/4" pipe ****** to mount the fixture.

You mount the strap to the box with 8-32 RHMS and the fixture mounts to the ****** with a small locknut.

I would add a couple of wood screws through the back of the fixture into the plywood, to keep the fixture from rotating out of square with the soffit.

Steve

You dont know that, there are different types. Sometimes the ****** is part of the fixture, if there even is one, and yes, on that type the holes line up with the box, whether the fixture or strap. And you can tell all that from that fixture still with the packaging on it? Anyway, my point was the fixture needs to be mounted to a box, which encloses the box and contains the splices, which ever way it may be . His question was if the box needed a cover on it

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[Terry D]

I don't know of a metal old work box built in an octagon style. The plastic O/W boxes aren't meant to be used with the armored cable.
ANY box will have to be mounted flush, or project beyond the plywood (because plywood's flammable).

I didnt catch the armored cable when I recommended a plastic cut in. The do make a metal 4/0 old work box though

https://garvinindustries.com/54151-...DWfcFE3eR0CJyt2GG0yCurCc-_ahnR2BoCRZYQAvD_BwE

https://garvinindustries.com/54171-owbx

 

[grounded-b]

You dont know that, there are different types. Sometimes the ****** is part of the fixture, if there even is one, and yes, on that type the holes line up with the box, whether the fixture or strap. And you can tell all that from that fixture still with the packaging on it? Anyway, my point was the fixture needs to be mounted to a box, which encloses the box and contains the splices, which ever way it may be . His question was if the box needed a cover on it

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Yes, I do know that the fixture mounts with a strap. Go to the OP's first post. Pictures #2 and #3. He shows the fixture and the strap.

I also answered him previously, that the box does not need a cover

Steve

 

[Terry D]

Yes, I do know that the fixture mounts with a strap. Go to the OP's first post. Pictures #2 and #3. He shows the fixture and the strap.

I also answered him previously, that the box does not need a cover

Steve

I didn't catch the strap in the 1st post. My point is that it needs to mount to the box, not just have open splices.

As far as you already answering the question, you will find that multiple people will give the same answer on a post. That assures the OP this is the correct way of doing something

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[drewcorvette]

ok ending up getting an expandable ceiling fan bracket with box. Please see the pictures this will dig into either side of the joist/roof. I will tighten everything up then push the wires through the box and wire it up. Then bolt up the fixture. Anyone see any issues electrical wise or safety?

I also assume the wires out of the existing fixture hopefully are just white, black and a copper wire for grounding?

 

[grounded-b]

ok ending up getting an expandable ceiling fan bracket with box. Please see the pictures this will dig into either side of the joist/roof. I will tighten everything up then push the wires through the box and wire it up. Then bolt up the fixture. Anyone see any issues electrical wise or safety?

I also assume the wires out of the existing fixture hopefully are just white, black and a copper wire for grounding?

You WILL need an armored cable ( BX ) connector and an insulated bushing (Red Head ) when you connect the cable to the box.

And, yes, it will be black to blacks, white to whites, and bare copper grounds to green ground screw. ( BX does not have a ground wire internally, it grounds through the armor)

Steve

 

[drewcorvette]

How come you need a armored cable ( BX ) connector and an insulated bushing (Red Head ), this bushing in the image came with iti assume that will not work. Is it b/c its armored cable? So i once i feed the bx into the connector it will ground it?

 

[grounded-b]

How come you need a armored cable ( BX ) connector and an insulated bushing (Red Head ), this bushing in the image came with it i assume that will not work. Is it b/c its armored cable? So once i feed the bx into the connector it will ground it?

That is a non-metallic, push-in connector for "Romex"

Yes, in order to maintain continuity of the equipment ground, you need to use a listed connector for armored cable (BX). The "red-head" is use to protect the conductor insulation from the sharp edge of the BX armor.

Steve

 

[drewcorvette]

are their different sizes and configurations for the armored cable ( BX ) connector and an insulated bushing (Red Head )? If so how do i figure out which one i need?

This is the bracket i bought i assume it does work with bx cable? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-15-3-cu-in-Remodel-Construction-Ceiling-Fan-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Box-CMB150-OB/205383178

 

[grounded-b]

are their different sizes and configurations for the armored cable ( BX ) connector and an insulated bushing (Red Head )? If so how do i figure out which one i need?

Are you sure you are even qualified do DIY electrical?

This is baby stuff. Basically you need a 1/2" BX connector and a "red head" for whatever size BX you have. If I had to guess, I would be 95% sure it is 14-2 BX.

And before you ask, Yellow #74B wirenuts would be what I would use to splice the 3 fixture wires to the #14 black and white wires in the BX. ( your mileage may vary )

Steve

 

[drewcorvette]

thanks for your help, and to answer your question yes i am a DIY in many areas, just want to be certain with anything electrical. Might have a question or two once I'm ready to button everything up

 

[drewcorvette]

The knockout i believe is 3/4 for the box, you had mentioned a 1/2" BX connector, i assume they have one for 3/4. https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_161776465180613&key=8d1879ea4db6639656bbe1af129db4fc&libId=kn6uooyx010025g3000DLm9lmo8pv&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagejournal.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D478790%26page%3D2&ccpaConsent=1---&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fp%2FCommercial-Electric-15-3-cu-in-Remodel-Construction-Ceiling-Fan-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Box-CMB150-OB%2F205383178&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagejournal.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D478790&title=Outdoor%20Front%20Door%20Light%20Help%20Please%20-%20Page%202%20-%20The%20Garage%20Journal%20Board&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fp%2FCommerci...0-OB%2F205383178

 

[grounded-b]

The knockout i believe is 3/4 for the box, you had mentioned a 1/2" BX connector, i assume they have one for 3/4. https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_161776465180613&key=8d1879ea4db6639656bbe1af129db4fc&libId=kn6uooyx010025g3000DLm9lmo8pv&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagejournal.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D478790%26page%3D2&ccpaConsent=1---&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fp%2FCommercial-Electric-15-3-cu-in-Remodel-Construction-Ceiling-Fan-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Box-CMB150-OB%2F205383178&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagejournal.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D478790&title=Outdoor%20Front%20Door%20Light%20Help%20Please%20-%20Page%202%20-%20The%20Garage%20Journal%20Board&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fp%2FCommerci...0-OB%2F205383178

a 1/2" connector fits into a knockout which measures a bit over 3/4" in diameter. 1/2" is the "trade" size.

Steve

 

[yeldogt]

Have had situations like this ---- often you can simply attach the electrical box to the light and then attach the whole wired assembly to the framing. The larger lights often have holes for this as the ceiling box my not hold the fixture tight anyway.

I have also used a junction box .... no, it's not code. I really don't see how it is any different than what every recessed light has ... a buried junction. It's just as easy to get to it when you lower the fixture.