Outlet for a welder

[dfiler2]

Someone gave me a Lincoln AC/DC 225 welder and I am going to put in an outlet for it near the large door in my shop. It requires a 50 amp plugin and the total distance is right about 100' so I thought about using #8 wire rather than #10 because of the distance. I also have an abundance of 1/2" EMT and thought about using it, but 3 #8 wire in 1/2" is the limit so I am also assuming it might be a ***** to pull. So I guess I have 2 questions, should I go up to #8 and if I do would you use 1/2 EMT? Thanks

 

[alfredeneuman]

You need 2-#8s not 3. The ground wire can be a #10 if you want to install one.
The EMT itself is approved as a grounding conductor, but the EMT must be installed correctly.

Expect the pull to be a breeze. (I've pushed, not pulled 2-#8s 40' with 2-90° bends in it and it was super easy.)

 

[dfiler2]

Thanks, I forgot about downsizing the ground. For some reason I just feel better running a separate ground, so I probably will. I will be actually pushing it as you suggest.

Thanks again for your help

Are most other people comfortable not running a ground when using EMT?

 

[alfredeneuman]

I didn't suggest to push it!
Pull it instead, I just gave that example as to how easily it would go through

 

[dfiler2]

Haha, ok, I have had pretty good luck pushing wire and my plan was to push it up around 2- 90's about 20', then pull it and push it through the pipe as I hang it. The pipe will be hung on the wall about 12' up. Sound reasonable?

Thanks

 

[alfredeneuman]

No. It's against the Code to do that

300.18 Raceway Installations.
(A) Complete Runs. Raceways, other than busways or exposed raceways having hinged or removable covers, shall be installed complete between outlet, junction, or splicing points prior to the installation of conductors.

 

[dfiler2]

Got it, I will go to a junction box, then pull it the rest of the way after the run is complete. Thanks

 

[Aceman]

I use 3/4" minimum when it's #8's.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I use 3/4" minimum when it's #8's.

Is there a reason for that?

 

[Aceman]

Is there a reason for that?

1. It's easier to pull.
2. I can add a couple 120v circuits in the pipe if need be for general purpose receps, etc.
3. It's really not any harder to bend and there is very little price difference.


And to be honest, I use 3/4" pipe for most everything in a shop, warehouse, etc. I will use 1/2" for thermostat wire sleeves and lighting conduits in the ceiling where I know it'll most likely never have any more wires pulled into it, but that's about it.

 

[crusher13]

Pretty sure a 50 amp receptacle requires #8 regardless of distance.


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[alfredeneuman]

Pretty sure a 50 amp receptacle requires #8 regardless of distance.

There's an exception to that for welders and motors.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

1. It's easier to pull.
2. I can add a couple 120v circuits in the pipe if need be for general purpose receps, etc.
3. It's really not any harder to bend and there is very little price difference.


And to be honest, I use 3/4" pipe for most everything in a shop, warehouse, etc. I will use 1/2" for thermostat wire sleeves and lighting conduits in the ceiling where I know it'll most likely never have any more wires pulled into it, but that's about it.

I second the above. I used 3/4 even for just 12 gauge for the lighting. Less fittings to stock, more room for future use.

After I ran the wall outlets, then I decided to wire outside the shop. I already had the conduit and boxes in place, alI had to do was pull the fish tape and knock a few holes it existing boxes to get it where I wanted it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP- that welder:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/K1170/e230.pdf

has a 20% duty cycle. The input current is 50a.

So u multiply the input current by .45 (20% duty cycle correction factor) to come up with circuit wire size.

.45 * 50a = 22.5a. This means #12 THWN in conduit can be used. Use 3 #12 or use 2 #12 and the conduit as the ground.

Use 6-50r and a 50a breaker.

http://m.ecmweb.com/qampa/code-qa-45

 

[alfredeneuman]

A problem with running 100' of #12s on a 50mp load is voltage drop.

With 100' of 12 you would have a voltage drop of 6.62% (5% is generally accepted as the maximum, although it's only a Fine Print Note in the NEC and is unenforceable)

If the conductor size is increased to a #10, there would only be a 4.16% drop.

 

[dfiler2]

Very close, it is an AC/DC like this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-AC-DC-225-125-Stick-Welder-K1297/100053881

I see the duty cycle is the same, that is great information, I will file that chart away.

Thank you!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A problem with running 100' of #12s on a 50mp load is voltage drop.

With 100' of 12 you would have a voltage drop of 6.62% (5% is generally accepted as the maximum, although it's only a Fine Print Note in the NEC and is unenforceable)

If the conductor size is increased to a #10, there would only be a 4.16% drop.

Yup youre right. I hastily typed my comment and was gonna say to use #10s at the end to combat VD, hit submit and forgot all about it! If the run was shorter, #12 would be fine!

 

[crusher13]

OP- that welder:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/K1170/e230.pdf

has a 20% duty cycle. The input current is 50a.

So u multiply the input current by .45 (20% duty cycle correction factor) to come up with circuit wire size.

.45 * 50a = 22.5a. This means #12 THWN in conduit can be used. Use 3 #12 or use 2 #12 and the conduit as the ground.

Use 6-50r and a 50a breaker.

http://m.ecmweb.com/qampa/code-qa-45

I am by no means a code guy electrical engineer not electrician but how is an inspector going to pass #12 or #10 for that matter hanging out a 50 amp breaker? You might put a 20% duty cycle welder on that outlet then go sell the place and the next guy says great welder outlet and put a 100% duty cycle machine on it. I don't buy an inspector would let that fly and if they would my conscience would let me save that few dollars on wire size

 

[driz]

I did mine the easy way. I measured everything and drew up a nice little map of everything . Then I went down to the local electrical supply and said make it so. Easy peasy lemon squeezy and they just do it all on the fly because they do this stuff every day. I walked out the door with everything I needed and didn't have to even think about it. Sure I could have saved a couple bucks at Lowes but not all that much and it was simplewithout even having to calculate anything.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am by no means a code guy electrical engineer not electrician but how is an inspector going to pass #12 or #10 for that matter hanging out a 50 amp breaker? You might put a 20% duty cycle welder on that outlet then go sell the place and the next guy says great welder outlet and put a 100% duty cycle machine on it. I don't buy an inspector would let that fly and if they would my conscience would let me save that few dollars on wire size

Maybe u should read the code instead of questioning what i wrote!

 

[crusher13]

Maybe u should read the code instead of questioning what i wrote!

Don't be a jackass the last part of my post said even if that was true I wouldn't do it. Just because it is code doesn't make it right

 

[alfredeneuman]

I am by no means a code guy electrical engineer not electrician but how is an inspector going to pass #12 or #10 for that matter hanging out a 50 amp breaker? ......... I don't buy an inspector would let that fly

You have no idea at all as to what an inspector would or would not approve. It's done all the time....... and it's right

 

[sberry]

No one really thinks 12 is a great idea but it is legal to 65 ft I believe for that machine. 10 is so much better and any machine comes with a fak pak cord wont overheat it. As I mention earlier only 250 feeders call for 8 and even then they wont burn up a 10 in a home shop.

 

[sberry]

Don't be a jackass the last part of my post said even if that was true I wouldn't do it. Just because it is code doesn't make it right

I understand how some of you can feel threatened when someone new comes along but you got to be superdicks right off the bat?

 

[slodat]

The code tough guy **** on here gets old fast. It's not necessary to be a **** to get the information out there.

 

[dfiler2]

Thanks sberry,

So it sounds like #10 would do fine, but I'm wondering if there is any reason not to go with #8. There would be about a $36 cost difference if I pull three wires and of course it would be harder to work with. It also sounds like most are comfortable using the conduit for a ground, so that would reduce the savings to $24. It just seems to me with so many connections, over time you risk having an issue.

After finding GJ last year and reading a lot, I decided to use EMT for all my electrical and that has worked out really well. It allowed me to spend some time working in the shop and adding electrical just where I needed it. This was my first experience using EMT and it is a little more work but I know I have saved money and time overall. My point here is that it just seems like I should run a separate ground wire but I really don't have enough experience with it to say for sure.

Comments and Opinions welcome

 

[slodat]

I pull in a ground personally. The way I see it, I want the breaker to trip on a fault. Pulling in a ground gives me peace of mind that there is a low impedance short circuit current path back to the source and that the conduit is at ground potential. I'm a high voltage relay technician.. I think about this stuff

 

[crusher13]

I understand how some of you can feel threatened when someone new comes along but you got to be superdicks right off the bat?

I don't know if you thought I was the superdick wasn't trying to be I thought he was a bit sarcastic I am not threatened as I said I know how to find things in the code and was just surprised it was legal obviously it is and it is right who knew? I still wouldn't do it as it isn't worth it in my eyes.



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[sberry]

I wasn't referring to you.

 

[Jlarson]

I pull in a ground personally. The way I see it, I want the breaker to trip on a fault. Pulling in a ground gives me peace of mind that there is a low impedance short circuit current path back to the source and that the conduit is at ground potential. I'm a high voltage relay technician.. I think about this stuff

Actually a properly installed metallic raceway is a better path for fault current. Tests have shown the majority of current will be on the conduit.

 

[Kevin C]

Actually a properly installed metallic raceway is a better path for fault current. Tests have shown the majority of current will be on the conduit.

Good point, I still like using a separate ground inside the raceway. Just incase the conduit ever gets separated (or has a loose connection), I still have a ground path.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Don't be a jackass the last part of my post said even if that was true I wouldn't do it. Just because it is code doesn't make it right

I wasnt meaning to be a jackass.

However, if u think the code isnt right for this particular subject then please explain how millions of shops have been wired for welders in this regard and have had no issues!

 

[Justanoldguy]

Don't be a jackass the last part of my post said even if that was true I wouldn't do it. Just because it is code doesn't make it right

You said
Quote: my conscience would let me save that few dollars on wire size.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[crusher13]

You said

Quote: my conscience would let me save that few dollars on wire size.



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Sorry mistype on that


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