Outside crawl space access: Bilco, Turtle and others?

[paredown]

It's almost New Year's eve, and I'm thinking about my project list. One that has driven me crazy since we moved in is our unimproved crawl space(s). It was supposed to be 3' clear; what the builder did was excavate for the footings, leave mounded up debris in the center, and then placed his footings for center beams in each section on top of the ****. No insulation, no vapor barrier, no rat slab and a wildly uneven area to even think about retrofitting even vapor barrier.

I have slowly come to an appreciation of what I want to improve and what I will leave as-is--and the largest section (where at least all of the outside footings are at the same grade) seems to be improvable by moving some of the excess fill out. (Not sure if I want to go as far as redoing the piers and footings under the beam...)

Doing this requires external egress--at present I have a hatch in the furnace room, but it would be hell to try to take material out in buckets. I have an end wall where I can add access--foundation is CMU (mostly not grouted; I'm assuming that codes or inspections were more lenient).

I have looked at Bilco doors, but I can't grasp whether or not you could use one of their doors on a shallower entrance than a full set of steps. I'm thinking the back edge of the Bilco at about the bottom of the siding, and say 3-4 steps down--somewhere around +/- 36" so you are clearing the bottom of the joist structure (and whatever you needed to put in as a lintel/header.

Does this seem doable?

My hope is that with a back opening, I should be able to use some sort of conveyor system to excavate at least some of the material... and be able to come back and finish with a Bilco style entrance.

(The other type of entrances I have seen are often a access panel style, either at grade or inside a well (like the premolded "Turtle" one that is sold) but those seem to me no real improvement over the inside access I already have.)

 

[billconner]

The problem with a bilco style hatch is there is no thermal barrier. You'd have to add an insulating "door" or panel at the opening in the wall.

I'd almost think you could do a ramp rather than steps. Maybe wheel barrow material out.

The Bilco seems to mainly provide rain and snow protection in this case. For relatively short term/low frequency use it seems expensive. No suggestions for an alternative rain and snow hat.

 

[jack stand]

It's doable, but why?
You could probably insulate and do whatever poly under the insulation in a casual weekend working around the grade irregularities.
Putting in a set of bilco doors just to correct the basically irrelevant grading when all you want to do is insulate....
You'll probably never go in there again anyway.

 

[CombatNinja]

You have a crawlspace in New York that has no insulation? What!? How/why did you let the builder get away with this?

 

[Hank11]

Don't know about the doors, but a small mortar tub with a rope tied to it makes removing fill or trash out of a crawl space a little better. You want a rope on each end, one person loads, the other pulls it out then the first guy pulls the empty tub back in -- and repeat.

 

[paredown]

You have a crawlspace in New York that has no insulation? What!? How/why did you let the builder get away with this?

A very good question. The house was built in 1963-4 for the previous owners. I have partial plans that show batt insulation in the joist cavities, but have not found evidence that it was ever installed and then removed because of critters or water damage (and there is evidence of both). While the plans were drawn up by an architect, my working theory is that he did not supervise the build and the home owner did.

It could have been money -- or just misunderstanding.

And while you would think the benefits of insulating would be obvious by now, we recently tried to qualify for a NY State energy upgrade that required our preferred HVAC guy to partner with an insulation "specialist"--definitely not my choice--who then walked around the house telling me things like "you don't need to insulate the crawl space."

 

[larry4406]

What does the topography of your lot look like?

Flat as a pan cake and top of foundation wall 8" above grade? Or a nice slope so that you could create a walk in entrance on one side?

 

[solo machinist]

I'm I'm the same boat. Crawl space gets very tight the further you go. I bought tarps from bill board tarps .com. heavy duty.
I'll build a motorized conveyor using my ladder with plywood on top of the rungs. The tarp will ride on the ply with rollers on each end. With one being driven.

 

[paredown]

It's doable, but why?
You could probably insulate and do whatever poly under the insulation in a casual weekend working around the grade irregularities.
Putting in a set of bilco doors just to correct the basically irrelevant grading when all you want to do is insulate....
You'll probably never go in there again anyway.

It may well be crazy--what I really would like is a basement, but to get from here to there would be a major undertaking.

My hope for the partial remedy was usable space for some storage, as well as make it easier to level up the structure, and make redoing a couple of things (like replacing the pressure tank for the well) easier.

And you are right--I've been down there a lot lately because I'm renovating, but at some point I will likely be able to avoid it like most homeowners.

 

[paredown]

What does the topography of your lot look like?

Flat as a pan cake and top of foundation wall 8" above grade? Or a nice slope so that you could create a walk in entrance on one side?

The lot as a whole has decent slope N-S , so they carved into the uphill side, pushed their material out onto the downhill side to create a level building area. But it also has a slight slope E-W, so the end where I was thinking about access is where the most foundation is exposed -- probably about 16".

The section where there is the worst variation on the depth of the footings is on the opposite end (what used to be the back of the house), where I suspect they left the N-S grade untouched in the NE corner, so they were measuring their footing depths off the natural grade. That east side of the house is now the "front" and was subsequently leveled out (somewhat) to put in a driveway and such to join the new subdivision that was built up around this place. That does leave the NE corner with footings that would not meet code for frost requirements...

 

[mike93lx]

It may well be crazy--what I really would like is a basement, but to get from here to there would be a major undertaking.

My hope for the partial remedy was usable space for some storage, as well as make it easier to level up the structure, and make redoing a couple of things (like replacing the pressure tank for the well) easier.

And you are right--I've been down there a lot lately because I'm renovating, but at some point I will likely be able to avoid it like most homeowners.

Once I got my crawl encapsulated, I no longer dreaded going in there. It's bright and clean.

Removing material is really a job best suited for two people. Toy snow sleds, barrel lids and mortar trays are all good. Ropes on both ends, as @Hank11 said. It still ***** though. Get a good ventilation fan with a hose to control dust and get yourself fresh air

 

[solo machinist]

Watched a fellow on you tube dig a basement. Had to remove concrete then the dirt. He had a electric mini hoe, conveyors dumps. The whole shebang.
It was a retirement project.

 

[jrsavoie]

I'm I'm the same boat. Crawl space gets very tight the further you go. I bought tarps from bill board tarps .com. heavy duty.
I'll build a motorized conveyor using my ladder with plywood on top of the rungs. The tarp will ride on the ply with rollers on each end. With one being driven.

If you search on industrial sites, you might find a cheap belt conveyor

 

[paredown]

If you search on industrial sites, you might find a cheap belt conveyor

Yes--I've seen those occasionally on FB Marketplace while I have thought about this project. The other thing that I have seen go by that are pretty cheap --suitable if you are working more on the flat-- are used roller conveyors from warehouses. They are often built with legs to put them at a convenient height for truck unloading, but the legs can be removed and then blocked up. it lets you efficiently roll whatever containers you are putting your debris into.

 

[jrsavoie]

It may well be crazy--what I really would like is a basement, but to get from here to there would be a major undertaking.

My hope for the partial remedy was usable space for some storage, as well as make it easier to level up the structure, and make redoing a couple of things (like replacing the pressure tank for the well) easier.

And you are right--I've been down there a lot lately because I'm renovating, but at some point I will likely be able to avoid it like most homeowners.

Did they dig deep enough with the footings to use the area for a basement?

I looked at a house that they added an addition to and did a proper job of setting the footing to the same height as the rest of the houses basement.

Why they didn't excavate the dirt, install an access door and pour a floor, made no sense to me.

 

[jrsavoie]

The problem with a bilco style hatch is there is no thermal barrier. You'd have to add an insulating "door" or panel at the opening in the wall.

I'd almost think you could do a ramp rather than steps. Maybe wheel barrow material out.

The Bilco seems to mainly provide rain and snow protection in this case. For relatively short term/low frequency use it seems expensive. No suggestions for an alternative rain and snow hat.

I thought Bilco now made Plastic doors.

I have steel Bilco doors. That's what I thought I wanted, 25 years ago.

We're still trying to figure out a better way to go. Now the doors are in need of paint.

The lack of a thermal break is a serious issue.

plastic bilco doors - Google Search

 

[larry4406]

Did they dig deep enough with the footings to use the area for a basement?

I looked at a house that they added an addition to and did a proper job of setting the footing to the same height as the rest of the houses basement.

Why they didn't excavate the dirt, install an access door and pour a floor, made no sense to me.

This is a common issue/problem with converting a crawlspace to a basement.

Crawlspaces are often done due to cost constraints of the original build but sometime due to soils issues (high groundwater, rock, etc). This in turn often means that the footings and/or piers are installed to just below the frost line making them too shallow for a basement.

With shallow footings, you are then faced with underpinning section by section if you want to retain the full footprint of the home as the basement. This also presents challenges on subsequent water proofing as the method of underpinning creates many cold joints (bentonite water stop products are available for this).

My brother did a conversion for a customer of his that had shallow footings. This was at least 20 years or so ago.

• The new walkable basement is interior to the perimeter crawlspace foundation by about 3-4'. This allowed the existing perimeter footings to remain in place and did not compromise the footing's plane of influence.
• There were some interior piers that he had to temporarily shore up and install new piers and steel columns.
• He did excavate down to the top of the existing footing and this set the elevation for the interior walls as well as determined the required offset so as to not disturb the plane of influence of the existing footings.
• He poured a slab on grade at this shelf area as well as at the basement floor. This upper shelf space provided the customer with storage spaces, some of which were trimmed out behind cabinet doors.
• The original vent locations were changed to small operable windows and others were added.
• This work included installation of an exterior areaway with poured steps and and interior stair.
• The end result was a conditioned space.

Dirt removal was the bucket brigade method with many labors.

 

[jrsavoie]

This is a common issue/problem with converting a crawlspace to a basement.

Crawlspaces are often done due to cost constraints of the original build but sometime due to soils issues (high groundwater, rock, etc). This in turn often means that the footings and/or piers are installed to just below the frost line making them too shallow for a basement.

With shallow footings, you are then faced with underpinning section by section if you want to retain the full footprint of the home as the basement. This also presents challenges on subsequent water proofing as the method of underpinning creates many cold joints (bentonite water stop products are available for this).

My brother did a conversion for a customer of his that had shallow footings. This was at least 20 years or so ago.

• The new walkable basement is interior to the perimeter crawlspace foundation by about 3-4'. This allowed the existing perimeter footings to remain in place and did not compromise the footing's plane of influence.
• There were some interior piers that he had to temporarily shore up and install new piers and steel columns.
• He did excavate down to the top of the existing footing and this set the elevation for the interior walls as well as determined the required offset so as to not disturb the plane of influence of the existing footings.
• He poured a slab on grade at this shelf area as well as at the basement floor. This upper shelf space provided the customer with storage spaces, some of which were trimmed out behind cabinet doors.
• The original vent locations were changed to small operable windows and others were added.
• This work included installation of an exterior areaway with poured steps and and interior stair.
• The end result was a conditioned space.

Dirt removal was the bucket brigade method with many labors.

We just jacked the whole house up and used a skid loader.

 

[paredown]

This is a common issue/problem with converting a crawlspace to a basement.

Crawlspaces are often done due to cost constraints of the original build but sometime due to soils issues (high groundwater, rock, etc). This in turn often means that the footings and/or piers are installed to just below the frost line making them too shallow for a basement.

With shallow footings, you are then faced with underpinning section by section if you want to retain the full footprint of the home as the basement. This also presents challenges on subsequent water proofing as the method of underpinning creates many cold joints (bentonite water stop products are available for this).

My brother did a conversion for a customer of his that had shallow footings. This was at least 20 years or so ago.

• The new walkable basement is interior to the perimeter crawlspace foundation by about 3-4'. This allowed the existing perimeter footings to remain in place and did not compromise the footing's plane of influence.
• There were some interior piers that he had to temporarily shore up and install new piers and steel columns.
• He did excavate down to the top of the existing footing and this set the elevation for the interior walls as well as determined the required offset so as to not disturb the plane of influence of the existing footings.
• He poured a slab on grade at this shelf area as well as at the basement floor. This upper shelf space provided the customer with storage spaces, some of which were trimmed out behind cabinet doors.
• The original vent locations were changed to small operable windows and others were added.
• This work included installation of an exterior areaway with poured steps and and interior stair.
• The end result was a conditioned space.

Dirt removal was the bucket brigade method with many labors.

Good summary--and that is where we are at--footings are mostly @ 36", except in the front section as mentioned above. There are a number of good YouTube videos showing an excavation process like you describe. It is pretty laborious (and costly)--but for the right house it might be worth it.

And jacking would be impossible (I believe) since the house is built as three "boxes" --so you would have to deal with the sprawling size and three structures, but also with the center section that's built as a modified post and beam. About the latter -- let's let's just say is not how the professional post and beam folks would build one now--and I would not want to be the guy who decided to jack it up, even if it were a stand alone structure!

There is one fabulous excavation where the guy had access to new excavation machinery (and was, I assume, a skilled operator). A pretty modest house--but he really got a great job. This is the first video:

 

[Zeke]

^^^2 Years!!! I thought I had some jobs that drug out.

 

[Pen & Wrench]

Well, I would ask, if you sell the property, what will an inspection require? We bought a home for our daughter to rent from us and it had a full concrete block basement with a crawlspace addition. I knew the crawlspace was not built exactly to code, but it was built solid and we figured it would meet our daughter's and our needs just fine. And it did. The floor in the crawlspace addition was very solid. We did conventional financing and our lender did not require us to make any changes when we bought the house. The problem came when we sold it. An inspector required an additional support beam be added across the center of the addition to beef up the support system, and meet building codes. A basement window was the only access, and it was too small for me to get through. I broke out blocks and built an access door with a window in it for optional ventilation. This crawlspace was built with a frost depth footing/perimeter wall, but it was so shallow I could not get into it! I dug it out by hand and hauled the material out with buckets by myself. The material was very hard and very dry and I used an air chisel to loosen it up. It can be done, I did it, but was a lot of work, and I only dug it deeper where I had to be working to make the changes I needed to make to satisfy the inspection requirements. As others have said, why do things that may not be required, but if I were you I would make changes in order to meet anticipated requirements for a reasonable inspection, so that if you ever want to sell it, you don't have to hurry up and get it done like I did.

 

[jrsavoie]

Well, I would ask, if you sell the property, what will an inspection require? We bought a home for our daughter to rent from us and it had a full concrete block basement with a crawlspace addition. I knew the crawlspace was not built exactly to code, but it was built solid and we figured it would meet our daughter's and our needs just fine. And it did. The floor in the crawlspace addition was very solid. We did conventional financing and our lender did not require us to make any changes when we bought the house. The problem came when we sold it. An inspector required an additional support beam be added across the center of the addition to beef up the support system, and meet building codes. A basement window was the only access, and it was too small for me to get through. I broke out blocks and built an access door with a window in it for optional ventilation. This crawlspace was built with a frost depth footing/perimeter wall, but it was so shallow I could not get into it! I dug it out by hand and hauled the material out with buckets by myself. The material was very hard and very dry and I used an air chisel to loosen it up. It can be done, I did it, but was a lot of work, and I only dug it deeper where I had to be working to make the changes I needed to make to satisfy the inspection requirements. As others have said, why do things that may not be required, but if I were you I would make changes in order to meet anticipated requirements for a reasonable inspection, so that if you ever want to sell it, you don't have to hurry up and get it done like I did.

And you never know when the ability to physically or financially do the work will escape you.