P&C Stuff

[four.cycle]

I think of them more like subsidiaries of Thorsen, not sister companies or brands (like Action).

Yeah.. as with my statement about the Dayton-Thorsen relationship, I think I'm a bit scatterbrained today and not choosing my words carefully enough.

I thought the plant was in Texas?

From the various comments in different threads, from former military people who were stationed near air force bases or other military installations, and comments from members in that geographic area, it appears that Giller was made in Texas, and Thorsen in Oakland, until the operations were moved and combined (at some point as yet unknown) to Dallas.
I'm not falling on my sword on it either, but it's the best reasonable assumption based on a hodge-podge of anecdotal evidence in the form of comments posted here on GJ.

My point was that while we tend to think of the "MFD." marking as a Plomb thing (often used as an era separator, with Pebble production caught in the middle of the changeover from "MADE" to "MFD."), or a P&C thing (vis-à-vis Plomb), and yet it was also a Thorsen thing. All primarily west coast companies with one man in common.

I'm not putting my toes into the "MFD" waters, because I don't know anything at all about PLOMB or P&C (or Penens). That's a conversation I just watch from the sidelines, but I haven't made sense of it.

Occam's Razor would fail you in many cases on this subject, 4.c. Not to cast doubt on your time in your family's shop with all that wonderful literature, but a system of coding catalogs and other publications really wasn't as universal as you may remember, especially in the early days...."

Again, that's a best guess based on what I know, and I don't know what i don't know. I didn't get into the business until 1971 really, and didn't really pay attention to that sort of stuff for a few years. But the numbers (like on that P&C brochure or that 1934 Thorsen catalog) were the only thing we had to go by, and there was a degree of .... consistency (?) (not really sure if that's the right word here) to the numbers corresponding to the year.
But my comment above wasn't just about tools - it was more "across the board" - water pumps, clutches, starters, brake shoes, and such. Was the only way to tell if you had the most current issue in the big catalog rack on the front counter.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Understood about later standardization.

 

[four.cycle]

Let me add something here, which is relevant but tangential to any discussion about P&C or Thorsen or any tools:

Recording history is fraught with obstacles. Sometimes it's a no-brainer. Sometimes we arrive at completely off-base conclusions from small bits of data that don't show us the whole picture.

I'm not going to take it personally if you tell me I'm wrong. As I noted above, I only know what I know, and I don't know what I don't know. Sometimes I can be a bit quick to arrive at a conclusion without having all the pieces of the puzzle, in spite of my endeavoring to get it right.

As we speak, I'm also working on another project which, candidly, I find overwhelming, but it's a subject that's been a lifelong passion, so I'll go at as best I can. The information I will be able to ferret out from a series of personal interviews, archival photographs, and documents will just be raw data - I will leave it for some graduate student to arrive at conclusions.

I may at times operate the same way here. I have something of a photographic memory, so comments I read here are stored away in the little file folders in my head. Sometimes they get mixed up. Sometimes all the pieces fall into place and I'm rewarded with that "aha!" moment.

I am secure in the knowledge that you, and others like you, are able and willing to do the slicing and dicing that puts it all together where the combined efforts arrive at the end goal: historical accuracy.

In a nutshell, don't be bashful about correcting my (sometimes) wild assumptions.
Having assisted (to a very minuscule degree) with a significant body of work published a few years ago, I've learned that I often don't know as much as I think I do, but sometimes I get it right.

(* The current project is interviewing a granddaughter of one of the original homesteaders who somehow slipped through the cracks and was never contacted - her story is not included in that volume above, and I'm going to go get it so that some kid working on his Masters Degree or Doctorate can put it all together. BK )

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Very interesting project, 4.c! As for not getting it right immediately, and sometimes winging it, we all do that. No worries. It's just a discussion.

 

[four.cycle]

 

[twertsy]

Yeah.. as with my statement about the Dayton-Thorsen relationship, I think I'm a bit scatterbrained today and not choosing my words carefully enough.







From the various comments in different threads, from former military people who were stationed near air force bases or other military installations, and comments from members in that geographic area, it appears that Giller was made in Texas, and Thorsen in Oakland, until the operations were moved and combined (at some point as yet unknown) to Dallas.

I'm not falling on my sword on it either, but it's the best reasonable assumption based on a hodge-podge of anecdotal evidence in the form of comments posted here on GJ.







I'm not putting my toes into the "MFD" waters, because I don't know anything at all about PLOMB or P&C (or Penens). That's a conversation I just watch from the sidelines, but I haven't made sense of it.







Again, that's a best guess based on what I know, and I don't know what i don't know. I didn't get into the business until 1971 really, and didn't really pay attention to that sort of stuff for a few years. But the numbers (like on that P&C brochure or that 1934 Thorsen catalog) were the only thing we had to go by, and there was a degree of .... consistency (?) (not really sure if that's the right word here) to the numbers corresponding to the year.

But my comment above wasn't just about tools - it was more "across the board" - water pumps, clutches, starters, brake shoes, and such. Was the only way to tell if you had the most current issue in the big catalog rack on the front counter.

They announced the Dallas move in '73.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[lardy1]

I'm not putting my toes into the "MFD" waters, because I don't know anything at all about PLOMB or P&C (or Penens). That's a conversation I just watch from the sidelines, but I haven't made sense of it.

I thought I had seen the MFD also attributed to Vlchek. So, I'll further muddy the waters for you.

 

[MR.X]

I thought I had seen the MFD also attributed to Vlchek. So, I'll further muddy the waters for you.

I think that particular contract piece for Vlchek would fall under Pendleton Tool / Proto empire production.

 

[lardy1]

I think that particular contract piece for Vlchek would fall under Pendleton Tool / Proto empire production.

Good call. When Larry finally gets around to his research, he finds that the Vlchek ratchet indicates a Pendleton patent issued in '66.

 

[Provincial]

Flea market finds this month.


#2525 3/4 x 25/32 DBE
#2529 13/16 x 7/8 DBE
#2532 15/16 x 1 DBE
#6215 1/2d spinner
#22 Center Punch

 

[Provincial]

Found on Marketplace. Old Kennedy box with a nearly complete P&C Short Bend Offset Socket Wrench Set #12 shown in the 1927 catalog.

#1510 5/16
#1512 3/8
#1514 7/16
#1516 1/2
#1518 9/16
#1520 5/8
#1522 11/16
#1524 (missing) 3/4
#1528 7/8
#1530 15/16
#1532 1"
#1534 1-1/16

Hinsdale Long Bend Offset Socket Wrench 9/16 in top left corner of photo.

Many of the larger wrenches are unmarked or very lightly marked.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...a nearly complete P&C Short Bend Offset Socket Wrench Set #12 shown in the 1927 catalog.

I already told you congrats on the Garage Sale thread, Jock, but it deserves a repeat here. You nearly one-fell-swooped that entire set!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Wow. Awesome set.

 

[Rileysan]

Good catch to you too and continuing in this vein...it looks like tools themselves have the registered trademark R. Which would indicate.....53? or after. The brochure's tools don't seem to show it but the front page hex looks like it has it. I'm fully ready to be corrected by those with better eyesight/ computer screens.

Found on Marketplace. Old Kennedy box with a nearly complete P&C Short Bend Offset Socket Wrench Set #12 shown in the 1927 catalog.

#1510 5/16
#1512 3/8
#1514 7/16
#1516 1/2
#1518 9/16
#1520 5/8
#1522 11/16
#1524 (missing) 3/4
#1528 7/8
#1530 15/16
#1532 1"
#1534 1-1/16

Hinsdale Long Bend Offset Socket Wrench 9/16 in top left corner of photo.

Many of the larger wrenches are unmarked or very lightly marked.

That is a fantastic find!! Grats!!!

 

[3baygarage]

Great find on the wrench set.

Rileysan, nice catalog you have there with your set.

 

[MR.X]

Found on Marketplace. Old Kennedy box with a nearly complete P&C Short Bend Offset Socket Wrench Set #12 shown in the 1927 catalog.

#1510 5/16
#1512 3/8
#1514 7/16
#1516 1/2
#1518 9/16
#1520 5/8
#1522 11/16
#1524 (missing) 3/4
#1528 7/8
#1530 15/16
#1532 1"
#1534 1-1/16

Hinsdale Long Bend Offset Socket Wrench 9/16 in top left corner of photo.

Many of the larger wrenches are unmarked or very lightly marked.

I'm a little late getting to this cause GJ put me on time-out for being a ****. Great Haul Jock! So did you measure the sizes manually and extrapolate the tool #'s or are they marked on the wrenches?

 

[Provincial]

No part numbers, and many have no logo. The smaller ones have logos. As you get larger, logos are marked lightly, or not marked. The sizes were determined by measuring. I used the 1927 catalog to determine the set number.

Do you have the 3/4" size that I am missing? I have an extra 9/16.

 

[MR.X]

No part numbers, and many have no logo. The smaller ones have logos. As you get larger, logos are marked lightly, or not marked. The sizes were determined by measuring. I used the 1927 catalog to determine the set number.

Do you have the 3/4" size that I am missing? I have an extra 9/16.

That's what I figured based on my experience.
When I used to live in the Midwest there were some old timers that had these boards in their shops with every size of nut mounted and labelled so whenever they ran across a wrench without markings they could just conveniently check it against the nuts rather than pull out a tape measure (or, if they were actually going to use it) find out the hard way they grabbed the wrong size after crawling back under the tractor or whatever.
I'll check for the 3/4" when I get back on the West Coast.

 

[Provincial]

Thanks!

 

[MR.X]

So while going to pick up the tool board in the 1st pic I stopped enroute and found this 1930 P&C flex speeder. Marked "P&C" and a pat. pending mark "PNDG." The socket is a 3/4" drive PLOMB WF-62.

 

[jabberwoki]

Need better pix of that board X.

 

[Provincial]

Interesting Fairmount board! I agree, more pics!

 

[MR.X]

Need better pix of that board X.

Interesting Fairmount board! I agree, more pics!

Total Troll move, I know I'll get something up in a bit.

 

[Rileysan]

Total Troll move, I know I'll get something up in a bit.

 

[3baygarage]

Sweet find on the speeder. It looks like the speeder in post #2 here, which had me considering P&C as a possible maker after looking at old catalogs.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362786

 

[d42jeep]

Here are the P&C tools we found yesterday morning at a Santa Rosa tool sale.
-Don

 

[MR.X]

Sweet find on the speeder. It looks like the speeder in post #2 here, which had me considering P&C as a possible maker after looking at old catalogs.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362786

I'd bet you're right. Everything looks the same. I also have other early P&C with the PAT. PNDG. mark like the one on your example.

 

[3baygarage]

I’m glad you posted it.

 

[Outlawmws]

I already told you congrats on the Garage Sale thread, Jock, but it deserves a repeat here. You nearly one-fell-swooped that entire set!

Ditto! Awesome set!

 

[Outlawmws]

Total Troll move, I know I'll get something up in a bit.

What was thinking had a "T" in it, but started with a "C"

But all is forgiven for posting the flex speeder!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Still using these at work

 

[jabberwoki]

Yeah there're good tools .

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I have to admit there were more at one time. Several met their demise in the usual way. Here is a p&c 3/8 wf extension.

 

[j6o6h6n]

I have a 3/8 Ratchet and quite a few sockets i would sell

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have a 3/8 Ratchet and quite a few sockets i would sell

There's a Classifieds section juts below the Vintage Discussion board where members list items for sale.

 

[d42jeep]

I found this adjustable today that I suspect was made in 1945.
-Don

 

[RubiconJK]

I found this adjustable today that I suspect was made in 1945.
-Don

Nice wrench Don! I may be wrong, but I think that JPD date code is for 1955. If it were '45 I think it would have the broached hanger hole.

 

[d42jeep]

I based my guess on the lack of the copyright mark by the P&C but I’m not exactly sure when that started. I don’t actively collect P&C so there is a lot that I don’t know. It is hard to pass up when I see it though. Like this big old DBE wrench I found last Saturday.
-Don

 

[Provincial]

Estate sale find today.
#604 stubby screwdriver
8" adjustable
2816 DOE 1-2 x 9-16 (the dashes instead of x indicate early production)
2118 short DBE 1/2 x 9/16

 

[Smokeshow69]

So while going to pick up the tool board in the 1st pic I stopped enroute and found this 1930 P&C flex speeder. Marked "P&C" and a pat. pending mark "PNDG." The socket is a 3/4" drive PLOMB WF-62.

Very nice flex head speeder. One on occasion sees the plomb or proto la version but never the p&c version! No one has seen that board because you have not posted any quality pictures [emoji23]


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