p&c transitional from plom or proto
- Thread starter jabberwoki
- Start date
lauver
Well-known member
jab,
I take it the arms for that puller are missing?
It looks like they may have ground the Plomb name off the puller bar and replaced it with a simple P&C stamping. Is that your take on the situation?
The other thing I noticed, the pebble finish looks unusual... much finer texture than what I've seen on other plomb tools.
How big is that puller? I can't tell by looking at it?
I take it the arms for that puller are missing?
It looks like they may have ground the Plomb name off the puller bar and replaced it with a simple P&C stamping. Is that your take on the situation?
The other thing I noticed, the pebble finish looks unusual... much finer texture than what I've seen on other plomb tools.
How big is that puller? I can't tell by looking at it?
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jabberwoki
Well-known member
Yep the arms are missing but a mate of mine may have an extra set of proto arms whislt not p&c they will do till find some. that screw is about 12 inches long and i agree about the factory grinding and re stamping weird eh!
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jabberwoki
Well-known member
Stole it out of a mate`s tool box! ever since i decided to collect these p&c tools i`m raiding everbodys tools!
lauver
Well-known member
jab,
Thanks for the warning. I'm going out to lock my tool cabinet. And for the record, there are no P&C tools in Texas.
I'm pretty sure the guys who have Plomb, Proto, and P&C catalogs will chime in pretty soon and will be able to pinpoint the date range for your puller. And they may be able to provide catalog photos of the puller arms too. I agree it looks to be Plomb/Proto transitional.
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jabberwoki
Well-known member
Locking your tool box will do no good did you see that clip on youtube with those wankers showing you how to break into a snap on tool box!! made me sick!
Bolster
Well-known member
So this is my read on it. [Note I had to edit this after finding additional info]
It's a tool from about 1949. Plomb had to grind off their logo due to the lawsuit from Plumb (you find lots of 1949 "grind-offs" here in the southland). P&C (a Plomb subsidiary) didn't get its logo registered until 1953, so maybe this was old "grind-off" stock still hanging around, and someone in the factory had the bright idea of simply "rebranding" the tool as P&C? But if that's the case, if it's 1953, why not just mark it "Proto"? And I have never seen a grindoff remarked "Proto." Maybe the overstamping came earlier than 1953, and somebody used the pre-registered P&C logo? Which would be a little odd, given all the headaches that "forgetting" to register the name had caused Plomb in '49. Either way, overstamping would mean not selling a brand-less tool (as most of the grind-offs are). It's a clever solution, stamping with a Plomb subsidiary marking, but why wasn't this solution in wider use?
It's definitely unique, in that I've not seen any other subsidiary-branded grind-off tool.
@lauv: Yes, those pullers had some of the most beautiful, sharp pebbling of any of Plomb's tools. I have no idea why. It is possible that the pullers were actually done at a subsidiary factory or sub-contractor that just did it differently, but that's wild conjecture on my part. However, you probably know that the early pebble pliers (which were the first pebble anything) were not made in-house by Plomb. But Plomb liked what their subcontractor had done, and went on to make wrenches with the same pattern themselves.
Jabber, that's the only P&C Pebble tool I've ever seen! Quite the score.
It's a tool from about 1949. Plomb had to grind off their logo due to the lawsuit from Plumb (you find lots of 1949 "grind-offs" here in the southland). P&C (a Plomb subsidiary) didn't get its logo registered until 1953, so maybe this was old "grind-off" stock still hanging around, and someone in the factory had the bright idea of simply "rebranding" the tool as P&C? But if that's the case, if it's 1953, why not just mark it "Proto"? And I have never seen a grindoff remarked "Proto." Maybe the overstamping came earlier than 1953, and somebody used the pre-registered P&C logo? Which would be a little odd, given all the headaches that "forgetting" to register the name had caused Plomb in '49. Either way, overstamping would mean not selling a brand-less tool (as most of the grind-offs are). It's a clever solution, stamping with a Plomb subsidiary marking, but why wasn't this solution in wider use?
It's definitely unique, in that I've not seen any other subsidiary-branded grind-off tool.
@lauv: Yes, those pullers had some of the most beautiful, sharp pebbling of any of Plomb's tools. I have no idea why. It is possible that the pullers were actually done at a subsidiary factory or sub-contractor that just did it differently, but that's wild conjecture on my part. However, you probably know that the early pebble pliers (which were the first pebble anything) were not made in-house by Plomb. But Plomb liked what their subcontractor had done, and went on to make wrenches with the same pattern themselves.
Jabber, that's the only P&C Pebble tool I've ever seen! Quite the score.
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jabberwoki
Well-known member
Great info soggy! buy the way check your email!
lauver
Well-known member
Bolster,
I have a transitional Challenger combo wrench that had been ground off. I have no idea why it was ground off, but it looks just like the Plomb wrenches that received similar treatment. Have you run across any ground off Challenger tools?
I have a transitional Challenger combo wrench that had been ground off. I have no idea why it was ground off, but it looks just like the Plomb wrenches that received similar treatment. Have you run across any ground off Challenger tools?
Bolster
Well-known member
I have never seen a Challenger grind-off! I would like to see it!
Lump
Well-known member
I find quite a few Mac tools with the logos mostly ground off, at flea mkts around this part of Ohio (not far from Sabina), and I have always assumed that they were sold as factory "seconds." I have further speculated that these ground-offs might have been sold that way either due to some visual defect on the tools, or because they were part of an excessive leftover inventory of obsolete designs which Mac wanted to blow out at steep discount, without having to warranty them later.
(Or perhaps ground-off tools may even have been given to employees?).
Just assumptions on my part...no idea if I'm right on any of that.
(Or perhaps ground-off tools may even have been given to employees?).
Just assumptions on my part...no idea if I'm right on any of that.
Bruce Lancaster
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,642
Next...I have and use Plomb pullers, including that basic style. I recently picked up an entirely spare "set" of long arms (already have the equivalent) for that bar (send me cross section dimensions to confirm) that consists of one Proto and one Plomb! That would give you a nice wad of company history...three logos for one tool!
Bolster
Well-known member
I had to edit my post above regarding Jab's puller. As Lebowski would have said, "New s**t has come to light, man."
lauver
Well-known member
Bolster,
Here ya go:
Photo 1, Entire wrench.
Photo 2, Detail of grind area and tool markings.
Notes: The grind area is difficult to see in the photo, but it's generally the entire area between the "6020" and "MFD USA". Also not visible in the photo is a faint impression of "CH___E___R".
So, what do you think? What is the new info that has come to light?
lauver
Well-known member
I find quite a few Mac tools with the logos mostly ground off, at flea mkts around this part of Ohio (not far from Sabina), and I have always assumed that they were sold as factory "seconds." I have further speculated that these ground-offs might have been sold that way either due to some visual defect on the tools, or because they were part of an excessive leftover inventory of obsolete designs which Mac wanted to blow out at steep discount, without having to warranty them later.
(Or perhaps ground-off tools may even have been given to employees?).
Just assumptions on my part...no idea if I'm right on any of that.
Lump,
In general, and especially with regards to MAC, I agree with you're observaions. Your observaions are logical and plausible. But in the case of Plomb/Proto/P&C/etc, given a documented courtcase and a court order to remove the Plomb name, I have to disagree. Thanks for the post though.
Bolster
Well-known member
Well I am puzzled about that Challenger.
Earliest Challenger I was aware of was '51 (a Penens brand at the time, which was a subsidiary of Plomb), so do you have a really early Challenger, there, that somehow got caught in the Plomb grindoff operations? The court order was to remove the name "Plomb," why would they have removed the name "Challenger"? Or was the name removed for some other reason?
That the P&C logo shown by the OP was registered in 1953. However, it may have been used (just not registered) as early as 1926. So the P&C logo isn't actually diagnostic in pinning it to a '53-or-later date.
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/peterson-carlborg.html
Earliest Challenger I was aware of was '51 (a Penens brand at the time, which was a subsidiary of Plomb), so do you have a really early Challenger, there, that somehow got caught in the Plomb grindoff operations? The court order was to remove the name "Plomb," why would they have removed the name "Challenger"? Or was the name removed for some other reason?
That the P&C logo shown by the OP was registered in 1953. However, it may have been used (just not registered) as early as 1926. So the P&C logo isn't actually diagnostic in pinning it to a '53-or-later date.
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/peterson-carlborg.html
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Lump
Well-known member
Gary, no my friend, actually we do NOT disagree. The Plomb vs Plumb court case seems to be a perfect documented explanation for the stamped-in P&C logo on the pebble grain tool, as far as I am concerned.
I was merely chiming in that at least one tool company that I know of SEEMS to have ground off their own logo on some of their tools for some other reason, because I find so many of them like that around here. And I merely speculated as to the reason why Mac (and presumably lots of other tool companies) might have ground off their logos, WITHOUT putting any other logos in their places. (This might be an explanation for that Challenger wrench, for example).
I love to read this kind of information on GJ. You learn so much about old tools on here.
Thanks, guys.
lauver
Well-known member
Well I am puzzled about that Challenger.
Earliest Challenger I was aware of was '51 (a Penens brand at the time, which was a subsidiary of Plomb), so do you have a really early Challenger, there, that somehow got caught in the Plomb grindoff operations? The court order was to remove the name "Plomb," why would they have removed the name "Challenger"? Or was the name removed for some other reason?
That the P&C logo shown by the OP was registered in 1953. However, it may have been used (just not registered) as early as 1926. So the P&C logo isn't actually diagnostic in pinning it to a '53-or-later date.
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/peterson-carlborg.html
Bolster,
First, I'm no authority on Challenger tools. Second, I'm not even a Challenger tool collector. Third, the only reason I bought this tool is because it is such a wierd duck and defies all logic. And last, when I first saw the wrench I thought it was a transitional (grind off) Proto; only on closer inspection did I figure out it was a Challenger (based on the Challenger model number and the faint Challenger impresssion under the grinder mark).
So why was it ground off? I can not even speculate, unless it falls under the Lump theory (i.e. tool was a factory second).
I'm just throwing it out there for other folks to see and ponder.
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Here is a set of pullers I have put together one piece at a time Pebble Proto and a non Pebble Proto pullers, different part numbers and different thread pitch mostly Proto Pro. legs and two short P&C legs one with pebbles. Also a smaller Plomb puller that I could use some legs for.
lauver
Well-known member
Here's a Plomb 4010 Gear Puller, ca. 1945-1948, per AA. Pebble finish and dimensions are similar to the P&C example. This particular one looks to be NOS.
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Bolster
Well-known member
Here's my Proto vintage pebble puller...yes, the box is lined with cardboard box from my favorite cookies...maybe Monte will see this and send me some...
I have seen tools from most of the major brands with the names ground off. I believe it is because they are either warranty exchanges or factory seconds. Often, there is just enough of the name left that you can identify the manufacturer. That Challenger looks a bit rough on the side, so perhaps it was a second.
Sometimes you just can't tell why the name was ground off. Perhaps it was to reduce inventory of seldom sold tools.
There is a place in So Ca that sells a lot of Craftsman tools that have the name removed. It's often still in the packaging, so anyone can tell who made it.
Years ago the SO salesman told me there was a big bin at the distribution center that they tossed their warranty tools in. I'll bet those tools were sold off rather than melted down. There's sure to be someone from one of the tool trucks on this board - I'd like to hear what they have to say.
Sometimes you just can't tell why the name was ground off. Perhaps it was to reduce inventory of seldom sold tools.
There is a place in So Ca that sells a lot of Craftsman tools that have the name removed. It's often still in the packaging, so anyone can tell who made it.
Years ago the SO salesman told me there was a big bin at the distribution center that they tossed their warranty tools in. I'll bet those tools were sold off rather than melted down. There's sure to be someone from one of the tool trucks on this board - I'd like to hear what they have to say.
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Bolster
Well-known member
Well hey, glad you showed up P-B, better late than never, eh?
Got an email from a mutual friend of ours who states that his collection contains the very same P@C overstamped tool as the OP has, and also a Plomb pebble ground and restamped Proto!
Said friend states that P&C, not being the flagship line, would be the more rational candidate for overstamping a ground tool.
Got an email from a mutual friend of ours who states that his collection contains the very same P@C overstamped tool as the OP has, and also a Plomb pebble ground and restamped Proto!
Said friend states that P&C, not being the flagship line, would be the more rational candidate for overstamping a ground tool.
OP
jabberwoki
Well-known member
I`ll get it done this weekend as for the want list anything different
OP
jabberwoki
Well-known member
Righto bruce i`ll do that tomorow thanks
mkdive
Well-known member
I found one of those Proto pullers this weekend. Had 3 sets of jaws, was in very good condition....Im not collecting proto, but if anyone wants it I can grab it for you...the guy was asking $50 for it. (I have no idea if that's a good price or not).
ricleh
Well-known member
I have several Challenger wrenches with the name ground off. They were purchased at an Orange County swap meet in the 1960's. I just assumed they were seconds.
lauver
Well-known member
ricleh,
Wow, talk about reviving an old thread. I had completely forgotten about this thread.
But, thanks for the info about Challenger grind offs and the approximate time frame. I've never had a feel for the time frame of the Challenger brand.
moparmuscle88
Well-known member
i hvae an 18" p&c pipe wrench that i had no idea who they were, so its made by plomb?
supertooljunkie
Well-known member
P&C was a stand alone tool company established in Oregon in in the early 20's. They were bought by Plomb in 1941.
Thorsen Tools was established by the gentleman that ran P&C Tools sales arm.
Thorsen Tools was established by the gentleman that ran P&C Tools sales arm.
I see Ground off Cman wrenches and Screwdrivers all the time near hear but I am also about 15 minutes from western forge too. I assume they are seconds that are available for the employees to buy (or steal) and sell off at local flea markets, pawnshops, etc....
-Dane
-Dane
Thread from the past
Pick up this smooth finish 7/8 combo for fifty cents last weekend did think much about it. Until I was cleaning it up a bit and turned it over found the P&C logo. Standard Plomb marking on one side and the P&C logo and a different part number on the other. AA has no info about that era of double markings
Pick up this smooth finish 7/8 combo for fifty cents last weekend did think much about it. Until I was cleaning it up a bit and turned it over found the P&C logo. Standard Plomb marking on one side and the P&C logo and a different part number on the other. AA has no info about that era of double markings
justin10054
Well-known member
It looks to me like the original puller is actually a Proto that was ground off. Compare it to the other Proto and Plomb 4011s that were posted above. The Plomb logo occupies so much more real estate. They would've had to grind off a lot more to remove a Plomb logo. Why they would do such a thing, I have no idea. It looks pretty haggard.
Also, I don't really buy the Plomb-logo-lawsuit-grindoff story. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I've come across so many earlier style Plomb wrenches and later Proto Los Angeles wrenches with the logo ground off. I think these are a result of factory 2nds being sold off. I always pass on these at swap meets, but it's now seeming like an interesting area of study so I might just have to start picking them up.
Also, I don't really buy the Plomb-logo-lawsuit-grindoff story. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I've come across so many earlier style Plomb wrenches and later Proto Los Angeles wrenches with the logo ground off. I think these are a result of factory 2nds being sold off. I always pass on these at swap meets, but it's now seeming like an interesting area of study so I might just have to start picking them up.
Gort the giant robot
Well-known member
About 15 to 20 years ago we had a flea market here in Portland Oregon. There was a guy that had hundreds of Proto tools with the names ground off. All were new and some you could still read the faint Proto name. I could see nothing wrong with them. The seller would not give up any info on them. I thought maybe they were seconds or stolen. The only ones I bought from him were pickle forks for $3.00 each and resold them to co-workers at the wrecking yard I still work at. I use to see Plomb lawsuit tools with the name ground off and passed them by before knowing the story about them. Now I buy them and add them to the Plomb / Proto / P&C tool box.
Gort
Gort
Gort the giant robot
Well-known member
Badger, badger,badger,badger,badger, mushroom, mushroom,, a snake, a snake.
Gort.
Gort.
Gort the giant robot
Well-known member
Dancing Badgers is a cartoon on the internet.
Gort.
Gort.
Gort the giant robot
Well-known member
Dancing badgers is a cartoon on the iternet.
Gort.
Gort.
What are you doing?