Paint problems

[Kevin54]

As some of you know, I redid my Desmond Stephans vise along with the hydraulic press I bought, and I mentioned that I bought TSC's paint that they carry called Majic or Majik. I also did a fan blade that has turned into the blade from hell.

In using the paint, I used the tractor and implement paint in a quart can, along with the thinner and with the hardener. When I primed it, I used their spray can. The first problem I had encountered was with the primer. I primed it one day, let it dry, then gave it another coat the next day. In doing that, the second coat wrinkled the first coat. I sent an e-mail to the company and explained to him the problem, and we spoke for awhile about it. It was hot and humid those couple of days, so I thought that maybe it had something to do with it. I didn't want anything in return for what happened, but I wanted to make them aware. I ended up sanding the hub down and recoating it with no further problem, but I did let it dry out in the sun for a couple of days.

So forward a few days and I painted the fan using paint out of a quart can, along with the thinner and the hardener and it came out beautiful. It had just the right sheen for a matte finish, it dried great and I couldn't have been more pleased. When I went to assemble it though, the hydraulic press I had bought was screwed up and the rivets went crooked. So I had to drill them out and on the last rivet, the damn thing caught and scratched the hub. So I wet sand it down with some 600. I was in TSC and thought I'd just pick up a rattlecan of the same paint, black matte to touchup the hub. It came out great but I did notice the sheen was a little different but not much. If matte is the middle of the spectrum, I'd say the rattlecan leaned more towards a flat finish just by a tic, instead of the other way of going towards a gloss. No problem though. I let it dry for almost a week as I had other things I had to address during the week. I finally got the hydraulic press reworked, sandblasted and painted, new rivets made, and I was good to go.

Friday I assembled the blades to the hub. Things looked good until I got the last blade assembled and I flipped the hub over and what do I see? FINGERPRINT IMPRESSIONS The rattlecan paint had never thoroughly dried after almost a complete week. So I went over to my vise that I had repainted, and seeing that it was just a vise, I used rattlecans on it. I took my fingernail and gave it the fingernail test and damn if it wasn't soft.

Now what the real pisser is......I have to drill out all of the rivets, 24 of them, and make all new rivets. I can't buy the rivets because for some odd reason, they are a ******* size plus they have a true round head that is also a ******* size. Believe me, I have researched every rivet place I could find. So I got them drilled out and have 6 more rivets to go today and I'll have that done. I fired off an e-mail to the company on Saturday, and Joe Donnely, the person that works there, called me first thing yesterday morning. We spoke for probably more than an hour.

What I found out is.......The company Yenkin-Majestic Paint, was originally based in California. With all of California's problems, they had to have a paint that was very low in VOC's, so new formulations were being tested. The company is now in Columbus, Ohio, and they still want to have a paint that is very low in VOC's, which is understandable. One problem they ran into with the formulations was finding a sweet spot that had very low VOC and was a fast drying paint. Well you see where this is going......they are having problems getting both. They THOUGHT they had it but are finding out that they are having more difficulties than they anticipated. For one, in my e-mail to him, I explained that most people that use that product are going to be rural people without the luxury of having a controlled climate and a paint booth. They are going to be painting in a barn, garage, or outdoors, and painting when it's 100 degrees out and wringing wet with humidity or painting when it's 50 out and no humidity, and they need to do their testing in a "real world" environment and not a controlled environment, which he wholeheartedly agreed. Plus the weather in Southern California is drastically different than in Ohio. Hell, we can go through 4 seasons in one day. I also found out, which I never knew that the paint that goes into a rattlecan is out of the same vat that goes into the quart or gallon cans. I always thought a rattlecan was a thinner material so it would spray out of the tip better. But what I also explained to him was that the quart can of black had a lot of material that settled in the bottom of the can that needed to be stirred thoroughly, whereas the rattlecan, as soon as I started shaking it, the ball bearing was rattling. So if it was out of the same vat, there should have been a good amount of solids that settled in the rattlecan just as it was in the quart can. That, he did not understand. And as I told him, I considered that maybe it was a bad lot that made it to the shelves, but if that was the case, then it should have just been the primer, or the black, or the red, but not all three. I also explained to him that when I used the hardener and the quart of paint, there was no problem other than the sheen was better with it than out of the rattlecan. He explained that the hardener will cause it to have more sheen to it, which does make sense as I learned years back with spraying single stage paints on automobiles.

In speaking with him, he is going to thoroughly look into what is going on and have his people do some "real world" testing using both the quart paints with the hardener, quart paints without the hardener, and rattlecan paints.

And he is going to send me some rattlecans and some quarts with hardener for my troubles. I told him it wasn't necessary but that I appreciated it very much. I again explained to him that I just wanted to make them aware that there is a problem somewhere with the paints.

Oh, and one other thing I forgot, in the development of their paint and the fact that it is tractor and implement paint, they didn't want to have a "hard" paint, but would rather have it a little softer as tractors and implements do get some abuse and they want a paint that has some resilience to it. If it didn't was was hard, then the probability of chipping would be a lot higher.

All in all, it was a good conversation with him and he seemed like he was really concerned. That goes a long ways in my book. And the only thing that he asked of me was after I receive what he is sending, to use it, and keep a small log of the temperature and weather conditions and how things turned out and to let him know. The company or at least the person I spoke with wants to make a top product that has some resilience, good coverage, and good drying time, which is sort of hard to get all of the ducks in a row. I'll continue to use the paint, as it does have great coverage and a good gloss to it, but like I told him, I am gun shy now on the rattlecan product. I know what the quart does with the hardener, so I will stick with that for now. The only reason I used the rattle cans in the first place was for the convenience and I didn't want to have to go to the trouble of cleaning the paint gun up for no more than what it was. So I'll put that on my shoulders for taking a shortcut. That little time saving has cost me more than a weeks worth of work, not counting having to buy a sandblaster to strip the paint off of the fan hub, making all new rivets, buying a hydraulic press, and Lord knows what else. We won't be cutting corners again anytime soon

Anyways, I just thought I'd let you guys know what happened as I was really bragging on the product when I first painted the hub and when I redone my vise.

 

[MP&C]

Kevin, good to see the paint company is working with you and concerned about improving their product. On your solid rivets, once set they tend to displace the hole outward, so you may want to insure the sizing isn't enlarged too much. If so, given it's purpose (what it's holding together), it may be safer to go the next size up and resize the rivet head to match what's called for on this restoration project. Good luck!

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin, good to see the paint company is working with you and concerned about improving their product. On your solid rivets, once set they tend to displace the hole outward, so you may want to insure the sizing isn't enlarged too much. If so, given it's purpose (what it's holding together), it may be safer to go the next size up and resize the rivet head to match what's called for on this restoration project. Good luck!

Robert...thanks for bringing that up. I have checked the holes and they are only displaced by a few thousandths from what they were. I wondered that when i first started work on it with the rivets being a ******* size, but then again, one never knows what exactly goes on across the pond. One of the first things I did is check the hole size. Where I worked almost every product has a few rivets of one type or another and I have made rivet tooling for so many years and so many types that if I forget half of it, what's left will still give me a headache. From orbital riveters to special spin riveters, hand riveters, hand riveting punches, rivet punches for presses, and Lord knows how many other types of punches. I would like to have an orbital riveter though. It makes heavy duty punching a breeze.

This is going to be the third go around (knocking on wood) and you know what they say about the third time......what can go wrong will go wrong. Wait, that's the wrong saying

 

[kursplat]

glad they care, sounds like a good company. i think a lot of paint companies are having issues trying to get the VOC's where they want them and still have the paint work right. i'm going through the same type of thing with some house paint. a couple weeks ago i repainted my front door with Benjamin Moore Aura water base. it was pretty warm when i did the first coat, after a couple coats of primer that sat for 2 days. let the color coat dry about 14 hours with the door cracked open so it wouldn't touch the weather stripping. felt pretty good when i went to bed. the next day, open the door and it's bonded to the weather stripping and pulled loose from the door. so i pulled all the W/S off, sanded and repainted. even with the hot weather here, it still has that "not quite done drying" feel to it. guess i'll let it go until it starts getting cold before i reinstall the W/S

 

[Bill Bowman]

Kevin:

IMO, you're going to get better results with the quarts mixed with the proper amount of activator. No way is the end result going to be the same with rattle cans. I don't believe the rattle cans can be "pre-activated" with hardener, because wouldn't the product set up chemically in the can? Could there be a way for the manufacturer to "mix" the two items as they exit the can?

In any event, I believe this is why your rattle can finish may be softer than the product with hardener. Bill

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin:

IMO, you're going to get better results with the quarts mixed with the proper amount of activator. No way is the end result going to be the same with rattle cans. I don't believe the rattle cans can be "pre-activated" with hardener, because wouldn't the product set up chemically in the can? Could there be a way for the manufacturer to "mix" the two items as they exit the can?

In any event, I believe this is why your rattle can finish may be softer than the product with hardener. Bill

Oh, I know that mixing it properly out of a quart can will give a better result. I seriously doubt they could make a two stage spray rattlecan that would mix properly upon spraying. Even if they could, the price would be cost prohibitive for the average person.

I've never been real fond of rattlecans vs. using a spray gun, then the paint, thinner, hardener, that goes together. But for something that is no larger than a dinner plate, one hates to put $100+ in materials. If it was something that I did full time, then I would already have the materials on hand. But when you only do spraying once a month or less, you won't build up a supply very quick. The last that I bought automotive paint was for the John Deere 318. I shot it in Base/Clear and even though I had some materials left over from painting my '93 Chevy Shortbed, I still had close to $200 in materials. The paint, tape, sandpaper and so on adds up really quick. Just the green painters masking tape is something like $10/roll for 3/4" wide.

I'm slowly getting some material stocked up, but it's starting to get expensive doing it. Just this one little job, I've had to shell out for a sandblaster, hydraulic press, material to make rivets, beer for the time afterward of getting frustrated, and the list keeps going

Before long I'll be REAL well equipped to screw something up

 

[454ragtop]

I too am having problems with Majik brand spray bombs. I'm restoring a camel back drill press, went to paint some of the handles red. Spayed on as much as I dared one night, wasn't covering well, went to spray another coat the next day and it curdled. I was pissed. Ran into this once before with engine paint, think it was Duplicolor. Sad about the Majik paint, it is very reasonably priced, and they have a pretty nice Machinery Gray, almost as good as Platicotes. Don't know if you noticed it or not, but the Majic brand spray paint, while in a std sized spray can, doesn't have as much paint in the can, think it's 9 oz compared to 12 oz. I hate when companies try to be sneaky like that, seems like they are trying to scam you. Guess it's the old you get what you pay for, so I guess it's back to Plasticote.
Jim

 

[e-tek]

Sorry to hear about the troubles with the paint and primer Kevin, but I have to say - the explanations given just don't hold water with me. Having had many years in the auotbody business - as a painter, manager and paint company rep - the product in kind and time on the phone were decent, but just barely.

In this day and age there's little reason for a paint company to have incompatibilities between it's spray-can and bulk preparations. Proform, Tremclad, Rustoleum and Duplicolor don't have these issues.

The other part I found odd was when the company rep said that the paint was meant to dry soft, fro better durability. Pure BS! A paint should not dry "soft" - pliable, maybe.... flexible, for sure - but not soft.

As you know, I've been working with Duplicolor for a few months now, representing their efforts to show how their product can be used with excellent results in almost any environment. Myself and many others have used their spray-can based primers under their bulk paints with great results - inside, outside, cold or hot.

My comments won't help you with all the prep work you have to do in order to repaint it all, but I maybe my POV may shed some light on what Majik is "selling".

 

[MP&C]

I can't speak to what brand it was, but have read threads on the HAMB and elsewhere of people using a mix of spray bombs and "automotive" paints out of a spray gun. Many have had issue with reaction between the two, and wrinkling of the paint as a result. In some cases it was hit or miss as some posters indicated using the same mix with success. IIRC the threads were discussing spraying steering wheels and I believe the rattle can product in most cases was the primer. I have done steering wheel repairs myself using epoxy primer, base, candy, and clears, all automotive paints using a gravity feed gun, and all with no issues.

I have gotten where I don't spray anything out of a spray can on any shop projects. Don't have time enough in the shop now, much less having to rework something. The spray cans aren't used in a collision repair setting as these shops don't make money on rework. The spray bombs are being marketed to those without proper spray capabilities (through Eastwood and the like) and the results seen using spray bombs will likely be more prone to issues... whether this be compatibility issues with other products used or a breakdown (shrinking) as solvents of the basecoats penetrate the spray bomb primers. Anyone paying premium prices for collision repair or restoration work should expect no less than premium products. The use of spray bombs brings up the "you get what you pay for" comment, normally heard when problems arise...

 

[Kevin54]

I know I've learned my lesson. The only pieces and parts I normally used rattlecans for was a quick paint job on an engine using the high heat paint, or shooting a grille that was looking a little worn to dress it up for a garage sale. I should have known better and like a said....lesson learned.

E-Tek....I may have used the wrong term with using the word "soft". They don't want the paint to be brittle hard. Flexible is a better term I guess. With a lot of farmers using the paint and hitting brush, corn stocks, limbs, they don't want it chipping.

 

[gte718p]

The Majik brand just *****. I just finished a wagon project with it. I picked up a quart of gloss black and ford red and their reducer. I didn't use the hardener, but it is not required.

It sprayed beautifully, even with my crappy Home Depot HLVP gun that was not properly adjusted. It looked great, three days later it is still not dry. Two weeks later it was finally dry to the touch. I went to reassemble everything the first time metal touched metal the paint came off of both parts. This was touching, not impacting, not rubbing.

I want the old TSC implement pant back. The new is ****...

 

[MP&C]

The Majik brand just *****. I just finished a wagon project with it. I picked up a quart of gloss black and ford red and their reducer. I didn't use the hardener, but it is not required.

It sprayed beautifully, even with my crappy Home Depot HLVP gun that was not properly adjusted. It looked great, three days later it is still not dry. Two weeks later it was finally dry to the touch. I went to reassemble everything the first time metal touched metal the paint came off of both parts. This was touching, not impacting, not rubbing.

I want the old TSC implement pant back. The new is ****...

This is where hardener helps, to reduce the "dry to the touch" time. Sure, it's not required, but not using it you get what you get. Shop conditions, temps, humidity, AIR FLOW, etc. can also have a large effect on drying times. As far as the paint finish releasing from the metal, did you use any type of primer at all? What type of prep work was done? The epoxy I use I've sprayed on anything from carbon fiber to steel, to aluminum, all in their bare but prepped state. I even took the .040 aluminum panel I sprayed and one week after finishing the final topcoat, wrapped it into about a 9" diameter circle with no release/delamination of paint whatsoever. Possibly your primer (or lack of) or inadequate prep may have contributed to the issue. Or it may have been cheap paint..

 

[Kevin54]

Just got back from the jobbers a little while ago. I got some real primer with activator. And damn if I didn't walk out and forget mixing cups.

I'm making out a shopping list tonight

 

[Kevin54]

Well, it's been 2 weeks today. I came out to the shop this morning, checked the vise, and the paint is soft as can be. I'll give it another week and if it's still soft, it will be stripped and redone with something other than a rattle can.

 

[e-tek]

The spray cans aren't used in a collision repair setting as these shops don't make money on rework.

While I agree with most of what you have to say and respect your professional work and opinion Robert, I have to take exception with this one statement.... Most production shops are using Proform and UPOL (maybe other brands) Etch and High Build primers in spray can form to spot primer areas where it just doesn't pay to mix catalyzed product.

Just noticed U-POL even makes a clear coat for spot-clearing in a production setting:

http://www.u-pol.com/product-cat/118/clear%231%E2%84%A2-high-gloss-clear-coat.htm

Of course there's no arguing the rest of what you said: You get what you pay for....the MAJIK Brand is cheap for a reason.

 

[MP&C]

While I agree with most of what you have to say and respect your professional work and opinion Robert, I have to take exception with this one statement.... Most production shops are using Proform and UPOL (maybe other brands) Etch and High Build primers in spray can form to spot primer areas where it just doesn't pay to mix catalyzed product.

Perhaps they use spray cans in your neck of the woods, but not around these parts. I don't know of anyone else in the business in this area that uses spray bombs, so I'm speaking of this general area. But I just find it hard to believe a collision shop anywhere, that is a legitimate business and is working with Insurance companies, is using spray bomb paint for repairs. Don't see how a spray can of clear will be as durable and UV resistant either. If I took a vehicle somewhere for a paint job and they broke out the spray bombs, the vehicle wouldn't stay there another minute. Of course, if someone wants that kind of work, then this is another of those "you get what you pay for".


Plain and simple, an un-catalyzed product like you find in a spray can is not as stable, and in the case of primers, is likely to result in shrinking and/or other reaction issues (wrinkling, lifting, or just plain not drying) as it gets exposed to solvents from additional layers. The companies that are marketing these ready-to-use spray paints are targeting those home hobbyists that do not have proper painting equipment.

Take exception if you must, using spray bombs will never come close to the results you will get with catalyzed automotive paints using spray guns.

 

[Kevin54]

Myself personally, I don't like using a non catalyst product along with a catalyst product. There is too much room for error. I'm not plumb dumb when it comes to painting. Although I was pretty dumb with what I did this go around. But when you go to mixing non-catalyst products with catalyst products. you can have a chemical reaction that will affect one or the other.

And on the other hand, what shows up at my door yesterday......2 cases of Matte Black and I.H Red in rattlecans of all things. I won't use what I have let alone 12 more cans of it. He was supposed to send quarts with hardener for me to try, which do have a couple of more vises to paint. Oh well....back to the paint jobbers I guess. I need mixing cups anyways.

One thing I did notice when I was down at the jobbers on Friday, they have a new manager, which is the young guy that worked there before, but they have pulled all of the rattlecans off of the shelves. They used to have the spray 2K primer, and spray Etch Primer in spray bombs, but no more. The only thing they had in spray bottles was some detailing products. The shelves have all been replaced with sanding products and masking products.

 

[FastKat]

You guys are talking about "spray bombs" - when I hear that term, I think of the custom made pre-mixed paint cans you get at a good auto parts store. They mix automotive paint to whatever color your request, insert the appropriate amount of activator, and put it into a can. The can is supposed to be good for 24 hours. Is that what you're talking about? They're good for small jobs where you need a durable finish and a really good color match.

Another thing I've found is that baking the paint helps, whether you're putting a heat lamp on it, putting it out in the sun, or even putting it in an oven at low heat. It makes a tremendous difference on the durability of the finish.

I have mixed up old automotive paint and had bad results, where the paint just does not want to dry no matter what you do. Maybe the paint was old?

 

[MP&C]

What I have called spray bombs or spray cans, has been in reference to pre-packaged non catalyzed product. Pick whichever manufacturer you like, Krylon, Rustoleum, Duplicolor, (whomever), the paint product is typically inferior to those products offered at automotive paint jobbers.


Ed was referring to the Duplicolor products in his first post on this thread. In reading his shop thread it sounds like they sent him some samples to try out and critique on his blog.. So I believe their pre-packaged products is what he was referring to in his earlier post about spray cans. Upol is a generic (but typically decent) brand of products used by many body shops as a cost saving alternative to the high end product lines carried by Dupont, PPG, etc. They have an extended "body shop" product line to include fillers and much more than just paints. Check Ed's Upol link above to see more.....

I was unaware Upol sold spray bombs, but regardless of whose name is on the label, they still have severe limitations over using spray guns. Factor in a nice 6-10" fan pattern of a good quality gun and how it atomizes, then compare it to what you get out of a spray can. It's like one is designed for painting automobiles/trucks, the other more suited to model cars.

Kevin, sorry if I somehow turned your thread into a spray can vs. spray guns, but I think you have found a positive solution to your original issue. I will say though, even the local machine shops in my area use either powder coat or automotive/industrial finishes applied by spray guns for manufactured items such as your MG fan. I'd guess you had similar production procedures at the shop you used to work at. Anyone in the business to manufacture or repair (automotive or otherwise) has a certain level of quality that they build to. I think your machining/fabrication efforts on this project put you right up there with any of the competition in your area. I'd just suggest to use finishing products/procedures equal in quality to show your customers the kind of quality products you produce. IMO spray can finish will negate the value of the quality put into the manufacture. A level playing field of high quality throughout the process keeps the value in the product.

 

[e-tek]

Sorry to take your thread for a detour here Kevin, but readers should know that there are SOME spray bomb (aka: spray can) products currently being touted as industry applicable. I'm not saying I PERSONALLY endorse them, or that I think they are as good/durable/usable as their hardened counterparts, I'm just saying they exist AND are being used in the production autobody refinishing industry.

Perhaps they use spray cans in your neck of the woods, but not around these parts. I don't know of anyone else in the business in this area that uses spray bombs, so I'm speaking of this general area. But I just find it hard to believe a collision shop anywhere, that is a legitimate business and is working with Insurance companies, is using spray bomb paint for repairs.

I know it's hard to believe at first, but unfortunately Robert - for many of us - what we would LIKE to believe is not always the case. Production shops in your neck of the woods and mine are using the same products. Professional series primers in spray bomb/can format are common place now and used where it's just not economically feasible to mix up a pint or quart of primer in situations when you only need a tiny bit for some sanded-through or other non-critical areas.

Again - I'm not saying (here) that I PERSONALLY think they are the same (except Etch Primer, which isn't 2K anyways, so it could be exactly the same) - I'm just saying that they are out there and are being used.

Don't see how a spray can of clear will be as durable and UV resistant either......The companies that are marketing these ready-to-use spray paints are targeting those home hobbyists that do not have proper painting equipment.

Don't take my word for it! UPOL (for one) claims it's spray can clear is UV resistant, highly durable and it's sold by autobody supply houses to the refinishing industry for use in areas you don't want to mix clear for, or you can't reach with a gun! http://www.repaintsupply.com/pd-clearcoat-uv-resistant.cfm

Note - on the same page there is a "True" 2K (2-part) Urethane clear in a spray bomb!! Talk about your all-in-one! http://www.repaintsupply.com/pd_2_part_2k_aerosol.cfm


As far as your jobber store pulling the spray bombs off the shelf - was that ALL spray primers, or just the Majik Brand?

 

[Kevin54]

Don't apologize for any thread hijack. It's a decent discussion going on and that's what it's all about

 

[MP&C]

Responses in Blue

Sorry to take your thread for a detour here Kevin, but readers should know that there are SOME spray bomb (aka: spray can) products currently being touted as industry applicable. I'm not saying I PERSONALLY endorse them, or that I think they are as good/durable/usable as their hardened counterparts, I'm just saying they exist AND are being used in the production autobody refinishing industry.



I know it's hard to believe at first, but unfortunately Robert - for many of us - what we would LIKE to believe is not always the case. Production shops in your neck of the woods and mine are using the same products. Professional series primers in spray bomb/can format are common place now and used where it's just not economically feasible to mix up a pint or quart of primer in situations when you only need a tiny bit for some sanded-through or other non-critical areas.

Actually, no. The couple guys I spoke to this morning mix all their primers, and laughed at the idea of using the spray bombs in their shop environment. One of the painters I spoke to is actually damn good about looking at a job and being able to mix up what it needs with only a couple ounces left over, whether that be primer, base, or clears, a spot repair or an overall. So there isn't much waste at all in this example. Given the average spray can and its temperament for nozzle clogs, you could just as easily have waste with either, spray bombs or paint guns. All depends on the person mixing/applying as to whether too much paint gets mixed up or how well a spray can (un-catalyzed) is cleaned for the next use.


Again - I'm not saying (here) that I PERSONALLY think they are the same (except Etch Primer, which isn't 2K anyways, so it could be exactly the same) - I'm just saying that they are out there and are being used.



Don't take my word for it! UPOL (for one) claims it's spray can clear is UV resistant, highly durable and it's sold by autobody supply houses to the refinishing industry for use in areas you don't want to mix clear for, or you can't reach with a gun! http://www.repaintsupply.com/pd-clearcoat-uv-resistant.cfm

Note - on the same page there is a "True" 2K (2-part) Urethane clear in a spray bomb!! Talk about your all-in-one! http://www.repaintsupply.com/pd_2_part_2k_aerosol.cfm


These 2K spray bombs are also available for epoxy primer, but given their average cost of $20 per can (plus or minus), it doesn't take too many of these cans and you would be money ahead, and more product to boot, to have purchased an epoxy you could mix and apply using a spray gun. So from an economic feasibility standpoint for the repair shop, having a gallon of primer on the shelf that you could mix with appropriate thinners and hardeners to the quantity you need would be far cheaper than having an equivalent sprayable qty of those 2K style spray cans, and less waste in the long run. Once the 2K spray can is mixed it has a limited shelf life, so any leftover is done... Waste, you say?


Sure, it's a viable option for someone without spray equipment, but about 95% of the guys you read about using spray cans are not buying the 2K product, they are using un-catalyzed paints that are inferior to the automotive catalyzed counterpart. I could see a home hobbyist using these 2K spray cans on a spot repair, but much more area than that, especially an overall of the complete vehicle, and attempting to use spray bombs becomes less of an option as maintaining good coverage and consistent mil thicknesses is not practical with a spray bomb. You've seen striping in paint using a spray gun, I can only imagine the results with a spray bomb.


For a shop to be using spray bombs, to me it goes back to the quality issue I mentioned to Kevin in my last post. You're either serious about the quality of your work or you're not. What you put into your projects in workmanship, materials, fit & finish, speaks volumes. And yes, I get that some of this is perception. But if a business is not worried about perception, then they are not serious about their business. The problems associated with a non-catalyzed spray bomb paint finish that rubs/scratches off easily (once it has finally dried) is going to be repeated to many of other prospective customers by the one who isn't happy with the product. What kind of advertising would you like?

As far as your jobber store pulling the spray bombs off the shelf - was that ALL spray primers, or just the Majik Brand?

Kevin's first post indicated the Majik brand was bought at the TSC, so I don't think that's what his paint jobber was removing from the shelf. Perhaps as a new manager, he's removing stock items that his customers don't frequently buy or use enough of to warrant the shelf space... The repair shops use quarts and gallons of product on a regular basis, where the home hobbyist who uses the spray cans isn't that much of his business.

 

[Kevin54]

As far as your jobber store pulling the spray bombs off the shelf - was that ALL spray primers, or just the Majik Brand?

E-Tek......I bought the Majik brand at our local TSC and this paint is , the way I took it, marleted for TSC only. The companies name is Yenkin-Majestic.

The jobber pulled all of their aerosols from the shelf. I noticed it when I first walked in. I have used their etch on a couple of spots I had on my truck when I repainted it. As far as the brand, for the life of me, I cannot remember as it's been a few years back. I used the etch primer when I replaced the cab corners. I think that is the only brand name rattlecan of product I ever used.

I have to go back down this week and get some mixing cups as I am out, so when I do, I'll ask them why they pulled the rattlecans. I do know one thing though...they are the closest jobber around. And the city they are in has a long history of car guys, and a lot of them in the town. I would venture to say that it is probably a 50/50 split who most of the products get sold to. Between body shops and personal shops. They are strictly a DuPont retailing store. The other jobber I used to go to in my hometown, a few years back, was strictly a BASF rep and retailer. There used to be in my hometown a Martin-Senour retail jobber but they also went out of business.

Like I said above, I've learned my lesson. What was a fairly straightforward simple job just turned into a *********** of a mess. I've made out a list of supplies I need and will only be using brand name products from now on, except maybe a vise or two of my own. And even at that, it will be out of a quart can and will have some hardener to go with it.

I've been out of doing the bodywork thing for a number of years now. I'm starting to have an itch for a project, but I just don't know what yet. I do have a buddy that said that he would teach me to weld, which I don't know how to do. My welds look more like pigeon ****. My dad taught me how to weld with Oxy-Acet years and years ago but I don't think I can do it today. I've been off the horse for a number of years now, so I don't know if I can still ride it or not. Losing most of the use of my arm, plus the meds over the years have sucked the self esteem out of me. I need to gain it back.

I do want to thank ones that do the work that I would like to do. After watching MP&C doing what he is doing to the '55, it's sort of lit a spark under my *** to get some more equipment and start doing something instead of just letting mold grow on me. It may take me a little longer than most, but then I'm also one to pay attention to detail. And that has bit me in the *** a few times too. I'll gradually get back on the horse and gain some of my confidence back. Not working in a couple of years can have a bad effect on a person.

 

[MP&C]

Ok, I spoke to yet another painter this evening from a third shop, and he did indicate that they use the non-catalyzed version of high build in a spray bomb. But he did say the ONLY time it is used is when they have a small sand through to bare steel or filler. They will apply a light coat and feather it out after drying to cover the exposed area. But he also cautioned that you don't want to approach using this product as if it were catalyzed high build.

He said it is actually pretty useless as a high build. The primer, if used to fill scratches, dings, or anything that will have varying thicknesses, is very likely to result in a shrinking effect after solvents/catalyst from follow-on coats have softened the primer, leaving the original defect visible under the paint. A light, uniform coat, as he described for touching up a sand-through, is the only application that he would recommend.

So regardless of the "high build" proclamation that the product may have on the label, as I stated earlier, a non-catalyzed spray bomb of "high build" is not a good choice for use as a high build primer. It is not stable enough. A high build needs to be catalyzed so it is not affected by follow-on coats of paint product.

So out of 3 local shops, two don't touch the stuff, and the third says to only use it for small sandthroughs in a light, uniform coat, not as a high build as the label would have you believe.

 

[Kevin54]

Ok, I spoke to yet another painter this evening from a third shop, and he did indicate that they use the non-catalyzed version of high build in a spray bomb. But he did say the ONLY time it is used is when they have a small sand through to bare steel or filler. They will apply a light coat and feather it out after drying to cover the exposed area. But he also cautioned that you don't want to approach using this product as if it were catalyzed high build.

He said it is actually pretty useless as a high build. The primer, if used to fill scratches, dings, or anything that will have varying thicknesses, is very likely to result in a shrinking effect after solvents/catalyst from follow-on coats have softened the primer, leaving the original defect visible under the paint. A light, uniform coat, as he described for touching up a sand-through, is the only application that he would recommend.

So regardless of the "high build" proclamation that the product may have on the label, as I stated earlier, a non-catalyzed spray bomb of "high build" is not a good choice for use as a high build primer. It is not stable enough. A high build needs to be catalyzed so it is not affected by follow-on coats of paint product.

So out of 3 local shops, two don't touch the stuff, and the third says to only use it for small sandthroughs in a light, uniform coat, not as a high build as the label would have you believe.

Myself, I would be afraid to do that. I ran into that on my '93 Silverado with the BC/CC. There was a bad area on the front fender that had to be redone. It was an LMC fender and there were numerous places that had to be repaired. That's another story though. One of the places was missed and I couldn't live with it, so I sanded the area down, and that was the one time I used a spray bomb of primer from the jobbers. It raised the surrounding material. This was a few days after the truck was painted. What started out as a small half dollar size area manifested itself into about a foot size area. Now whether they do or not, I don't know, but I would think that they have to thin the paint for spray spray bombs more than the standard primer out of a quart can. I'll have to look and see if I have any pics of the problem area when that happened.

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW I'm going to paint a bike frame with Majic paint products, primer, color, clear, hardener, and reducer. I reckon it'll either work, or it won't but I'm hoping buying all the recommended products will keep me from the non-drying paint problem noted above.

I looked long and hard at spraybomb primer to try to save some hassle, but had seen a post on a board somewhere that said never put paint with hardener in it over paint without hardener in it ... so i bought a quart of primer to mix.

I sent an email out to Majic with questions that TSC wasn't able to respond to, like how long to wait between coats, adjustments to the mix for temp/humidity, etc.

FWIW I had a spray bomb mixed up at one time with hardener in it. I had to use within X days, and it held up OK where I used it but not as good as the paint around it did. It eventually deteriorated and weathered away.

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW, Majic replied to my questions with some detailed instructions, so I'm feeling more confident that I'll be able to get good results.

 

[Silver6.0]

Within the last 6 months ive used this majik brand oil based enamel on several pieces. Ive used the kubota orange and the gloss black. Ive sprayed it from my devilbiss hvlp gun using thier reducer and autobody master brand hardner/ super wet look. The spraying took some extra thinning with reducer than recommeded on the can but it did work. Ive had the best luck using the primer gun w/ 1.8 tip. Also tried just brush on from the can and that did not flow very well and left brush marks. So I don't suggest that unless you like brush marks. I'll add some pics. Overall i'm happy with the results granted its not for a show vehicle just tractor implements and my my car trailer. The paint has held up on the implements well and did take a little longer to dry than other bc/cc paints ive used, but oil based usaully does take longer.

 

[Silver6.0]

tractor rake, was green, just needle scaled and used autobody master etch and fill, then shot the majik orange





Back blade, was yellow bought new, just scuffed w/ scotchbrite and painted w/ majik orange and black




Lastly my trailer, The top was primed w/ por-15 then shot w/ majik gloss black, the sides were primed w/ etch n fill autobody master then shot majik gloss black.

 

[b-body-bob]

To follow up, I finally got the first coat of color on my bike frame. I used a catalyzed epoxy primer under it, and Majic M-F red as the color coat. I reduced it by 1/2 the amount suggested, trying to avoid runs. It didn't dry enough to satisfy me within 24 hours of the first coat so I'm letting it dry another day before sanding and spraying the 2nd coat. The colors in the photo are wrong due to halogen lights shining on the frame.

 

[ilovevocs]

While I agree with most of what you have to say and respect your professional work and opinion Robert, I have to take exception with this one statement.... Most production shops are using Proform and UPOL (maybe other brands) Etch and High Build primers in spray can form to spot primer areas where it just doesn't pay to mix catalyzed product.

Just noticed U-POL even makes a clear coat for spot-clearing in a production setting:

http://www.u-pol.com/product-cat/118/clear%231%E2%84%A2-high-gloss-clear-coat.htm

Of course there's no arguing the rest of what you said: You get what you pay for....the MAJIK Brand is cheap for a reason.

I use the clear quite extensively and find it to be a great product. I recommend it to everyone that enjoys spray bombing in their home shop. Great gloss and quick cure time so it works well in dusty environment.

A quick edit. I should mention that I typically use this as a jam clear. When your cutting in a jam you can you spray it out with a touch up gun and clear it with the spray bomb and never take out a large gun. I use the PPS paint system on my touch up gun so clean up takes seconds. Im not painting as much as I used to, but for quick work on older cars you beat this stuff. I would never use it for a custom job, or on a high end car, but for low dollar repairs that you trying to bang out, its def. a time saver. UV resistance was never really a huge concern as im using it in a jam. For this application it is a great product.