Palmer Brothers Tool Co.

[woody 73]

Sigh...I got Bupkis as in Sergeant Schultz saying " I see nothing!, I know nothing!".

First off I am very confused even in the name of the company I have so far...

Palmer Brothers Tool Co.
Palmer Brothers Tool & Forging.
Palmer Welloct Tool Co.
Palmer Welloct Tool Corp.

Two Brothers and not one bit of information, not even date of birth or death.
They were Robert W. Palmer and his brother John P. Palmer.

At least I know the following:

I did find an address of 1940 Saegertown Rd. Meadville, Pa.

One of the links talks about Channelock buying up palmer (but) I can find no proof of this.
Yes they do look like channelock, yes both come from Meadville, Pa. but that is where the similarities end.

I found this late last night so it might shed a little light at least...Meadville Forging Company, L.P. was formerly known as Palmer Tool and changed its name to Meadville Forging Company, L. P. in 1955. The Company was founded in 1940 and is based in Meadville, Pa.

The AA website lists a Palmer Welloct Pliers but my pliers in part reads just Palmer Meadville, PA. It looks like Welloct was just a brand name at this point in time.

Links to follow:

 

[woody 73]

Part Two.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/palmer-tool-meadville-pa-nippers-framing-hammer

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-wwii-tl-13a-palmer-pliers-171580623

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/palmer-tool-cross-straight-peen-blacksmith

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-palmer-brothers-10-folding-handle-draw

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113012&highlight=palmer+brothers

 

[woody 73]

Part Three.

https://www.shoppok.com/reading/a,4...w-Knife-Made-in-Meadville----35--Reading-.htm

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-palmer-brothers-meadville-pa-1900012115

https://books.google.com/books?id=H...nepage&q=palmer brothers meadville pa&f=false

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tool-palmer-welloct-patented-pliers-1810079283

https://www.bizapedia.com/pa/palmer-brothers.html

 

[woody 73]

Part Four.

http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?id=25430

http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers-p3.html#palmer

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2152563

https://books.google.com/books?id=y...nepage&q=palmer brothers meadville pa&f=false

https://www.armyproperty.com/manufacturer/86373

https://www.meadforge.com/author/catherine/

https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=242971

 

[woody 73]

Of special note:

I never post in the special section of the GJ What did you find at a garage sale post section because as most of you already know all my stories are what I have found at garage sales just like the pliers found just last night at a garage sale.

Before I forget I figure GJ member Private might get a kick out of the Military links; it looks like the Palmer Brothers made tools for the Military during the War years.

 

[outofbounds]

Seems the notion that they made that tool in Meadville, PA, would lead me to believe that someone walked out of Champion De Arment pissed off one night and decided he could do it better himself.

 

[woody 73]

In a way to most people it is a very good copy of channelock pliers. One of the worthpoint links goes out on a limb and talks about a merger (again I could find no such merger taking place). They made some very nice tools looking at all the web links, (some tools that channelock never made).

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Yes they do look like channelock,

In a way to most people it is a very good copy of channelock pliers.

Sorry, Woody, but I don't agree with these statements at all. The slip joint design of the Palmer pliers does not in any way even remotely resemble the tongue-and-groove design established in the original Manning patent (1,950,3620) and its improvements which characterize "Channellock" pliers. They are totally different. They do not look anything like Channellocks. The only thing they have in common is being made in the same place.

Before I forget I figure GJ member Private might get a kick out of the Military links; it looks like the Palmer Brothers made tools for the Military during the War years.

I don't see that in any of your links, Woody. I followed the ArmyProperty link, which shows a Palmer Welloct Tool Co in Meadville supplying pliers with a 13-digit FSN (1990's to today). Did I miss it somewhere?

 

[ganymede]

I recently worked on a set of Palmers and they're thicker/heavier than any I've seen in a comparable length.

 

[woody 73]

Private Hi,I think this is what I was trying to say, yes I know they are very different but side by side they do look very similar. If you look at a few of my examples (well all but one), and only one Palmer they can fool many people.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Many, many water pump pliers have the same overall shape. But only Champion DeArment and later Channellock "Channellocks" use the tongue-in-groove as an adjustment mechanism. And it is unmistakable from a slip-joint mechanism.

Your photos are hiding the tongue-in-groove.

Take a photo of the Palmer and a Channellock side by side - but put the jaws all the way open or all the way closed on both of them. And you will see what I mean.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

 

[Oldtuleguy]

It is a different design. Could be that is intended to avoid patent infringement.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

There's no "could be" about it. Everyone made water pump pliers. Utica. J.P. Danielson. Etc. Etc. Etc. All of them are some form of slip-joint or modified slip-joint design - like the Palmer. Only Champion DeArment made them with the tongue-in-groove.

 

[HMcM]

Interesting detail here. My Palmer 201 slip locking pivot plier has scollops on one side of the slip joint. Scollops on both sides of the slot are shown in the 1939 patent, in a Sep 1953 ad in Popular Science, and in the photo earlier in this thread. Strange that mine is different.

 

[ganymede]

Interesting detail here. My Palmer 201 slip locking pivot plier has scollops on one side of the slip joint. Scollops on both sides of the slot are shown in the 1939 patent, in a Sep 1953 ad in Popular Science, and in the photo earlier in this thread. Strange that mine is different.

Mine are 1 sided too.

 

[MisterEd]

Palmer Brothers "Welloct Positive Self Gripping Pliers" with Welloct logo on reverse side above patent number.

 

[woody 73]

Very nice thank you for sharing your copy of their pliers.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have seen plenty of Palmer Bors "WELOCT" water pump pliers over the years, but no heavy-duty general utility pliers, so I snagged these yesterday. Only three scalloped slip-joint slots, so it's harder to see the design than it is on the water pump type pliers.

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

I found me a old Palmer lineman pliers. There is not much other than GT for information. It is like getting Cattaraugus trench knife compared to a Case Trench knife.

 

[d42jeep]

It’s possible that the TL107 number on your wrench is a Signal Corps number. I believe that Palmer was supplying pliers to the Signal Corps during WW2.
-Don

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

It’s possible that the TL107 number on your wrench is a Signal Corps number. I believe that Palmer was supplying pliers to the Signal Corps during WW2.
-Don

Thank you sir. It will be going for trade at some point.

 

[kurtis palmer]

Hey guys my name is Kurtis Palmer. Robert W. Palmer is my great grand father, John p. Palmer my great uncle. My father is Named John Paxton Palmer also. Named after John P. Palmer.
So there’s was never a competition between channellock and welloct. William DeArment and my great grand father Robert W. Palmer were best friends. If I’m correct. Palmer brothers was established before channellock. My great grand father ended up being robbed blind for somewhere around 100,000$+ by a close friend and employee and very well known prominent family to this day who ran his books and others guys were stealing equipment. And also had a problem with spending too much time and money in Vegas. At the end he ran out of money drilling out west. The story is that he swore he only needed to drill another 200 feet or so until he struck but couldn’t get funding then the government came in finished drilling and struck billions if trillions. Wasn’t oil. I don’t remember exactly what he was drilling for.
I’m the end himself and John p Palmer lived out their lives very humbly and modest. I remember John p Palmer very well and We’ve just recently sold his old house. I’ll have to dig up some of the original patents and booklets and everything I’ve been able to salvage over the years after deaths in the family.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Hey guys my name is Kurtis Palmer. Robert W. Palmer is my great grand father, John p. Palmer my great uncle. My father is Named John Paxton Palmer also. Named after John P. Palmer.

Welcome to GJ, Kurtis! Thanks for your post. You have now joined a growing list of ancestors who have found our humble site intending to join in the fun, set records straight, rightfully show off a prideful heritage, or some combination of those things, including Joshua Ferguson, of Porter-Ferguson and Trimo-Ferguson fame, and Bill Woods, of Jo Mfg, to name but two.

So there’s was never a competition between channellock and welloct. William DeArment and my great grand father Robert W. Palmer were best friends.

This is very cool! Honestly, based just on the sheer odds of two companies making very similar tools in the same location, which is not exactly a teeming metropolis, I think many of us and many in the tool collecting community figured there had to be some kind of relationship, one way or the other.

It's kind of hard to blame this kind of speculaiton...

Seems the notion that they made that tool in Meadville, PA, would lead me to believe that someone walked out of Champion De Arment pissed off one night and decided he could do it better himself.

But it's very cool to know they were actually great friends, with strong credence behind it, coming from a family member. It's a privilege for us to get that kind of insight.

I don't think some of the competition implied and being discussed above was personal so much as technical.

The fact is, even though Palmer WELOCT and Champion DeArment Channellocks were both made in Meadville, PA, they did not use the same design. Your family made modified slip-joints. Champion DeArment made tongue-and-groove.

If I’m correct. Palmer brothers was established before channellock.

Documents show that Champion DeArment was established in 1886. If you have documents showing Palmer Brothers operating older than that, I think MANY people would like to see them, here and the guys over at Alloy Artifacts.

Various Hand Tool Makers [Page 3]

Page 3 of a collection of tools from various hand tool makers.

alloy-artifacts.org

If you're not aware, public history of Palmer Brothers is very scant and sketchy. Most sources date it to 1939, the date of the modified slip-joint patent for what Palmer Brothers started calling WELOCT in 1945, officially TM'ed in 1952. People would be very interested in seeing anything you would care to share with us.

 

[RTM]

Hmm, just to add a bit of further ?? to the questions.

I jut checked DAT for Palmer in PA, and got a drawknife maker, not much more in their listing (Palmer 3) for those with a copy.

Other makers in Meadville include (for that small town, big mfgr list)

BARTON, LEVI
MEADVILLE VISE CO.
MEADVILLE WRENCH CO.
PALMER (3)
THOMPSON MFG. CO. (3)
UWANTA WRENCH CO.
WHITE, N. (2)

But also implies neither company was formed prior to 1900. And Weloct got no hits, so that matches the 1945 as well.

DeArment gets no hit in DAT, need to add to my questions to dig into list

DAT Directory of American Toolmakers (pre-1900)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

DeArment gets no hit in DAT, need to add to my questions to dig into list

I don't want to turn this into a Champion DeArment thread, which we already have, but...

Patents for Champion De Arment Tool Co.

And George had his own...

Patents for George B. De Arment

 

[RTM]

I don't want to turn this into a Champion DeArment thread, which we already have, but...

Patents for Champion De Arment Tool Co.

And George had his own...

Patents for George B. De Arment

DAT, not DATAMP. Different systems.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Doh! I knew that! You've seen that early AEIOU book version! Sorry. Too quick on the draw. Carry on and don't mind me.

 

[bobnobody]

I bought the smallest pliers I've ever seen Plamer #204 for $2

 

[kurtis palmer]

Welcome to GJ, Kurtis! Thanks for your post. You have now joined a growing list of ancestors who have found our humble site intending to join in the fun, set records straight, rightfully show off a prideful heritage, or some combination of those things, including Joshua Ferguson, of Porter-Ferguson and Trimo-Ferguson fame, and Bill Woods, of Jo Mfg, to name but two.

This is very cool! Honestly, based just on the sheer odds of two companies making very similar tools in the same location, which is not exactly a teeming metropolis, I think many of us and many in the tool collecting community figured there had to be some kind of relationship, one way or the other.

It's kind of hard to blame this kind of speculaiton...

But it's very cool to know they were actually great friends, with strong credence behind it, coming from a family member. It's a privilege for us to get that kind of insight.

I don't think some of the competition implied and being discussed above was personal so much as technical.

The fact is, even though Palmer WELOCT and Champion DeArment Channellocks were both made in Meadville, PA, they did not use the same design. Your family made modified slip-joints. Champion DeArment made tongue-and-groove.

Documents show that Champion DeArment was established in 1886. If you have documents showing Palmer Brothers operating older than that, I think MANY people would like to see them, here and the guys over at Alloy Artifacts.

Various Hand Tool Makers [Page 3]

Page 3 of a collection of tools from various hand tool makers.

alloy-artifacts.org

If you're not aware, public history of Palmer Brothers is very scant and sketchy. Most sources date it to 1939, the date of the modified slip-joint patent for what Palmer Brothers started calling WELOCT in 1945, officially TM'ed in 1952. People would be very interested in seeing anything you would care to share with us.

I stand corrected. Yes 1886: Champion Bolt and Clipper Co. 1923: Champion-DeArment Tool Company. 1933: tongue and grove “channelock” pliers came. 1935: patent granted. 1963: Officially became channellock.. I did not expect much of a response. I’ll gather up everything we between my father and I and start sharing.

 

[kurtis palmer]

I stand corrected. Yes 1886: Champion Bolt and Clipper Co. 1923: Champion-DeArment Tool Company. 1933: tongue and grove “channelock” pliers came. 1935: patent granted. 1963: Officially became channellock.. I did not expect much of a response. I’ll gather up everything we between my father and I and start sharing.

I still have an old wooden tool chest that belonged to one of the brothers I believe. I want to say it would have been a cabinet makers tool box originally maybe. I share everything very soon. Thanks.

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

I still have an old wooden tool chest that belonged to one of the brothers I believe. I want to say it would have been a cabinet makers tool box originally maybe. I share everything very soon. Thanks.

That would be great if you could share. Plus pictures of your brothers wooden tool chest even if it were made of another company. Thanks Kurtis.

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

I found me a old Palmer lineman pliers. There is not much other than GT for information. It is like getting Cattaraugus trench knife compared to a Case Trench knife.

I would be more than happy to pass these down to your family if you have a interest in them.

 

[SilverDeck]

Palmer ads from Popular Science, 1953

 

[MisterEd]

SigO came home with a Palmer Side Cutter yesterday. Went to the Palmer Bros/Welloct Thread and was reminded how little was known/could be found about the Brothers Palmer and Palmer Welloct Tool Corp. of Meadville, Pa.

Found an article in “Hardware Age” that said:
“The company, originally organized as a partnership before World War II, was incorporated April, ‘47, with Robert W. Palmer as president and John P. Palmer, vice-president and treasurer. During the war the company’s production was 100 per cent war. When the war ceased. Palmer resumed its Welloct tools.”

“Hardware Age : Vol. 161, No. 4, 1948-02-12”

Hardware Age : Vol. 161, No. 4 : Chilton Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

294 p., illus., 27.8 cm, trade magazine

archive.org

 

[LesserSon]

Picked these up today for a buck. Last time I saw a Palmer was a TL- linemans that I stupidly passed on.
These caught my interest because of the near-approximation of the Vacuum-Grip grips.

A little sad Kurtis P never came back to post after 2023.