Panel Grounding Question

[wbrian63]

My brother just bought a house. It's a small frame home, pier and beam construction built in the 60's (maybe even as early as the 50's).

Has a modern breaker panel on the outside.

Direct TV won't install at his location because they say he doesn't have a grounding rod.

I got him to take a picture of the breaker panel with the interior cover removed.

Two load lugs at the top, with the common bus running vertical on the right side of the box.

Grounding bus is on the left side.

Common and Ground are tied together with a bar that runs across the bottom of the box below the breakers.

Grounding bus has an insulated wire attached to the lug at the top, running downwards and out of the picture. Looks to be about 1/4" OD including insulation.

I'm thinking that the wire runs into the house and is bonded to the water lines, which I think are galvanized.

Making an assumption here, but I'll bet Direct TV wants an externally located grounding rod so they can ground the dish.

Adding a grounding rod is no big deal, but if I remember correctly, there should only be 1 ground source.

If that is the case, would we remove the existing grounding wire and replace it with the wire that would come from the ground rod?

What is the proper solution to this problem?

 

[pattenp]

Just leave the plumbing grounded and add 2 ground rods set at least 6 feet apart on one continuous #6 copper wire.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Bond the electrical service to water line on the street side of water meter if possible,Outside grounding can be done a couple ways depending on how service and meter are installed.
Any pictures?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

If direct tv wants a ground rod Id tell them to drive their own,Ive seen enough stuff butchered up by phone/cable/dish installers over the years I don't like them near my work.

 

[wbrian63]

I'm in agreement with letting the dish folks install their own - but I'll bet they'll pass on the opportunity.

As for bonding to the water line on the street side of the meter - likely not possible - the house sits about 200' from the street. If it wasn't installed this way when the house was built (and this location was out in the sticks when that day dawned), then it's not likely to happen now.

2 ground rods 6' part with continuous #6 copper wire - tied back into the grounding bus in the panel?

 

[pattenp]

2 ground rods 6' part with continuous #6 copper wire - tied back into the grounding bus in the panel?

Yes, connected to the ground bar in the main service panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My brother just bought a house. It's a small frame home, pier and beam construction built in the 60's (maybe even as early as the 50's).

Has a modern breaker panel on the outside.

Direct TV won't install at his location because they say he doesn't have a grounding rod.

I got him to take a picture of the breaker panel with the interior cover removed.

Two load lugs at the top, with the common bus running vertical on the right side of the box.

Grounding bus is on the left side.

Common and Ground are tied together with a bar that runs across the bottom of the box below the breakers.

Grounding bus has an insulated wire attached to the lug at the top, running downwards and out of the picture. Looks to be about 1/4" OD including insulation.

I'm thinking that the wire runs into the house and is bonded to the water lines, which I think are galvanized.

Making an assumption here, but I'll bet Direct TV wants an externally located grounding rod so they can ground the dish.

Adding a grounding rod is no big deal, but if I remember correctly, there should only be 1 ground source.

If that is the case, would we remove the existing grounding wire and replace it with the wire that would come from the ground rod?

What is the proper solution to this problem?

nothing wrong with multiple grounding electrodes. Theyre for grouning out lightning. And yes u want any and all metallic piping and structure bonded to the ground bus in your panel! This is for safety reasons!

 

[Cmreschke]

Street side of service is before the water meter. Normally done in the house, basically just make sure that you are bonded on the water main befor and after the water meter with the same piece of wire.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Street side of service is before the water meter. Normally done in the house, basically just make sure that you are bonded on the water main befor and after the water meter with the same piece of wire.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

In the south the water meters are in the ground, out at the street, no more than a few feet from the main. That is probably what the OP has down there in Houston. Would not be possible to ground before the main.

Charles

 

[sands35]

There is a newer code requirement to have a inter-system ground block. It's like a $10 part at a big box. I'll bet they just want a place to ground the dish equipment.

If the house passed code inspection, it is to code and the dish installer shouldn't demand a change to your electrical system.

Though they do need a place to ground their work.

What I would do is run #6 copper to a inter-system ground block from your panel and tell the guy it's grounded properly.

I suppose they could refuse to install it.

If you do install ground rods, disconnect the ground to the water line.

 

[wbrian63]

Here in Houston, the water meters are out at the curb, or at the edge of the property line, as Charles noted.

At my house, there's a single #6 wire that is bonded to the copper piping in the attic and travels through the grounding bus in the breaker panel out to the outside of the house and to the ground rod. Wire is continuous without any breaks.

Wyliesdiesel says leave the current water pipe ground wire connected to the grounding bus.

Sands says disconnect the water pipe ground.

I've always been under the impression that you never want more than one path to ground. In a crisis situation, electricity shouldn't have a "choice" of which path to take. Arguably, a newly-installed pair of 8' grounding rods will have a better path to ground than a water pipe that has been in the earth who knows how long.

I don't want to do something that will endanger my brother - I'm not the beneficiary in his will or on his insurance policies...

Which is the proper method - leave the water pipe ground connected, or disconnect it?

Let the battle begin...

Thanks for all the replies to this point.

 

[thewatusi]

Do not disconnect the wire to your water pipe. That is bonding not grounding and is a very important safety measure.

Good information here:

http://electrical-engineering-porta...erence-between-bonding-grounding-and-earthing

 

[Cmreschke]

If you do install ground rods, disconnect the ground to the water line.

Absolutely do NOT do this. The NEC requires all metallic piping systems to be bonded, and water piping systems with 10 feet of metal pipe in the earth to be used as a grounding electrode, which also requires you to supplement it with ground rod (s). If you disconnect the water ground you will potentially be creating a very shocking situation that could KILL someone.
If your really in doubt then call a LICENSED electrician in your area.
Install the ground rod run a #6 to it and be done with it, it will cost you about 25 dollars but leave you with a bit of peace of mind.

DO NOT DISCONNECT THE WATER PIPE GROUND!!!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

There is a newer code requirement to have a inter-system ground block. It's like a $10 part at a big box. I'll bet they just want a place to ground the dish equipment.

If the house passed code inspection, it is to code and the dish installer shouldn't demand a change to your electrical system.

Though they do need a place to ground their work.

What I would do is run #6 copper to a inter-system ground block from your panel and tell the guy it's grounded properly.

I suppose they could refuse to install it.

If you do install ground rods, disconnect the ground to the water line.

Do not disconnect the ground to water service.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Bond the electrical service to water line on the street side of water meter if possible,Outside grounding can be done a couple ways depending on how service and meter are installed.
Any pictures?

Depending on your meter socket,I normally run the wire from the ground rod to the grounding lug inside meter socket if it has one.

 

[Orionrising]

Good for your direct tv installer, found the dish at the house I bought is grounded by shoving the end of the wire behind a piece of strapping where it enters the basement

 

[wbrian63]

I know that the ground on the water pipe is at least as important as the ground rod - I was just wanting to see what Sands35 would say...

 

[CNGsaves]

Here in midwest, the grounding of water pipe SHOULD be done within 6 ft of water service entering the building. Not possible to run that out in front of meter that is 4 ft below ground in front yard about 25 feet from house. Not sure if city does that in water meter can hole in ground . . . that's their problem in my opinion, as water line from meter to house is my responsibility.

My house built in '55 and only has copper water pipe grounding near the main breaker panel (which I'll be updating soon).

Thus, for any new electrical work, the ground for water pipe must be improved (brought up to code) and done within 6 ft of water service entering building.

 

[sands35]

OK - so fourth (fifth?) time, don't disconnect the water ground.

 

[thewatusi]

If the meter is underground and out by the street don't worry about it.

The idea behind bonding to the water line on the "street side" of the meter is so if the meter is in your basement a fault won't be hindered by the meter and will freely find its way back to the utility transformer (via the water pipe and the ground once it leaves your house).

You don't need to be bonded to the water main out in the street.

 

[Orionrising]

on a related note: my house has a shallow well and all PVC pipe. The well pump in the house is grounded.

Should there be a separate metal pipe section that is grounded installed somewhere.

 

[pattenp]

on a related note: my house has a shallow well and all PVC pipe. The well pump in the house is grounded.

Should there be a separate metal pipe section that is grounded installed somewhere.

If the plumbing in your house is metal then there should be a bonding wire from the main service panel that's connected to the piping. I believe the grounding to the pump is the equipment ground which is a whole different thing.

 

[Cmreschke]

Yes you need to bond any metallic piping systems likely to be energized. If you have plas tic pipe coming in to your house then you only need to bond it at the closest point to your panel, it doesn't need to go over to where it enters your home. Note that this is no longer considered a ground wire but it is a bond wire. It does not ground your panel, it bonds the pipe system, eliminating any difference in potential for electrical shock.

 

[wbrian63]

Success - 2 5/8" x 8' ground rods installed 6 feet apart. Single #6 wire connected to grounding bus in breaker panel.

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

 

[warren57]

Go buy a 6' ground rod, pound it in and let the dish people ground to it. Add a lug to the panel in the house and run a ground wire to the new ground rod if you want a secondary ground source for your home. Most codes call for a dual ground source, water pipe and ground rod.

 

[abk241]

OK - so fourth (fifth?) time, don't disconnect the water ground.

Do NOT disconnect the existing ground.
If the dish people won't install a new ground rod then hire an electrician to do that for you.

 

[sberry]

I havnt read about dish but bet its treated the same as a phone. If the electric system ground is accesable it should go to that.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Go buy a 6' ground rod, pound it in and let the dish people ground to it. Add a lug to the panel in the house and run a ground wire to the new ground rod if you want a secondary ground source for your home. Most codes call for a dual ground source, water pipe and ground rod.

Bonding the water line isnt a dual ground source, it is a safety bond so that the metallic water lines are at the same potential as the EGCs in the system. It is also so piping cant become energized without the OCPD clearing the fault!

If a water line is in contact with soil for 20' or more then it should be used as a grounding electrode as well!