Panel question 20 spaces 20 circuits with 240V

[600SL]

I have a Siemens CB panel PN2020L1125C, that specifies 20 spaces 20 circuits. But it accepts QT (thin) breakers. So my question is, does a double pole 240V breaker count as two circuits or 1. Can I put 10 240V breakers and 10 120V breakers in this box?

 

[mm08822]

2020 means 20 1" spaces and only 20 circuits. So 10 2p cbs = 20 spaces.

It does not accept QTs.

You would need a 2040 to accept QTs.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

QT breakers are tandems. no way that panel is listed for use with tandems since it is a 2020. If it was listed for use with tandems than it would be for example a 2030, which would be 10 single pole breakers (10 circuits)/or 5 double pole breakers, and 10 tandem breakers (which equals 20 circuits).

Post a pic of the panel label and we can show you which breakers its rated for.

 

[600SL]

No QT, but QTA and QTAN? Not sure what that means.

 

[mm08822]

No QT, but QTA and QTAN? Not sure what that means.

Still NO. T = Tandems. It will not accept any version of tandem. QTA = arc-fault type, QTAN = arc-fault plug-on neutral.

Post the complete pic of the label showing the buss.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

QT and QTA/QTAN are not the same type of breakers. QTA/QTAN are limited in amperage to 15a and 20a. QT comes in much large sizes.

can you post a pic of the rest of the panel label. need to see the line buss diagram

 

[600SL]

It looks like I might be getting some AI BS. If it cant take 30 circuits can it be converted to 30 circuits.

 

[600SL]

QT and QTA/QTAN are not the same type of breakers. QTA/QTAN are limited in amperage to 15a and 20a. QT comes in much large sizes.

can you post a pic of the rest of the panel label. need to see the line buss diagram

Here you go.

 

[mm08822]

Your stuck at 20 with what you have.

The enclosure is the same height so yes. As long as there are no design changes to the buss mounting provisions or enclosure.

Buy the 2040 and open it up to compare between the 2 panels before touching any wiring.

Siemens doesn't make a 2030 within this immediate product family.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It looks like I might be getting some AI BS. If it cant take 30 circuits can it be converted to 30 circuits.

not sure how you would convert it. would have to be larger enclosure...

 

[600SL]

Your stuck at 20 with what you have.

The enclosure is the same height so yes. As long as there are no design changes to the buss mounting provisions or enclosure.

Buy the 2040 and open it up to compare between the 2 panels before touching any wiring.

Siemens doesn't make a 2030 within this immediate product family.

Its actually confusing the diagram inside the box implies that I can convert mine to 40 circuits by installing ECNBX kit(s). But in the scenario I proposed 10 240V and 10 120V, I would have enough grounds and neutrals as is. Differences in pictures between the 2020 and 2040 appear to be the installation of a longer ground bar and another neutral bar.

On the other hand I have a 2448 box that calls out the QT. So the question now is, buy installing the ECNBX kit, is this box now a 2040.

2020 Pic



2040 pic

 

[600SL]

not sure how you would convert it. would have to be larger enclosure...

See post 11?.

 

[yatg]

 

[600SL]

Chuckle of the day.

Siemens response to the question. I actually was successfully able to contact GE customer service for similar question years ago. So I will keep looking.

 

[mm08822]

It could be the exact same box as the # of 1" spaces are same.
Swap out neutral and ground bars too, if the buss mounting means are identical.
Forgot this for my last reply......

 

[600SL]

It could be the exact same box as the # of 1" spaces are same.
Swap out neutral and ground bars too, if the buss mounting means are identical.
Forgot this for my last reply......

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Even if I have to purchase a new box and transfer parts it would be worth while

 

[mm08822]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Even if I have to purchase a new box and transfer parts it would be worth while

Probably the cheapest way and if the parts didn't transfer, then you have a complete panel to use.

 

[Innovate1]

Looking at the pictures the 2040 has a neutral bar on both sides and a longer ground bar. The 2020 only has a neutral bar on one side. The label states it can be a 2040 with added neutral bar or possibly if some of the breakers are plug on neutral so wouldn't fill the neutral bar. Same size box.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

See post 11?.

awwww I missed this. Never seen a panel like that

seems silly to have the same panel, 1 with reduced neutral and ground capacity for a difference of $6 and change.... looks like you can add the neutral bar and larger ground bar(if needed) and youre good to go

 

[600SL]

awwww I missed this. Never seen a panel like that

seems silly to have the same panel, 1 with reduced neutral and ground capacity for a difference of $6 and change.... looks like you can add the neutral bar and larger ground bar(if needed) and youre good to go

Only reason I can think of for having both is that the 2040 might not be allowed in some places.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Only reason I can think of for having both is that the 2040 might not be allowed in some places.

for what reason?

 

[sparky 1971]

Only reason I can think of for having both is that the 2040 might not be allowed in some places.

A better reason is that the 2020 is $6 cheaper and someone looked at that savings as free beer money.

 

[600SL]

for what reason?

Because Karen in the town hall said no.

 

[Stuff]

Siemens type QTA/QTAN identifies 15 and 20 amp tandem arc fault breakers that do not have a rejection tab. Their docs are a bit confusing.

From https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...d3-87f4-4f12871dd972/sieca-en-ss-twinafci.pdf

Tandem AFCI breakers without the rejection feature
can be installed in any panel that lists that breaker
type or where a substitution letter exists for that
breaker type. The schematic, located on the wiring
diagram, will indicate the positions where these
breakers can be placed by showing two circuits per
space. The total circuits listed for panel should not
be exceeded.

The UL substitution letter states QTA/QTAN are good wherever QAF/QAF2/QAF2N are shown.

 

[dscheidt]

A better reason is that the 2020 is $6 cheaper and someone looked at that savings as free beer money.

Yep, builder doesn't care that it will cost lots of money to redo it when you need to add the 21st circuit, 13 months after they're done. They saved $6, that's money in their pocket.

That said, I've seen panels that don't accept tandems specified in engineered panels, because the engineer doesn't want to think about what that does to heat loading.

 

[600SL]

OK next question. I have the Aluminum version of this box PN2020L1125. At this point the box is pretty easy to change and not too expensive. But I'm finding there is a copper version as well in both the 2020 and 2040 PN2020L1125C and PN2040L1125C. They are about $50 more. Is there any reason I should upgrade to copper?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Copper is worth it IMPO

 

[600SL]

Copper is worth it IMPO

Looks like I got 3 votes for the Copper. Hopefully If I order the 2040 copper the guts will fit in the 2020al box and I can swap the cover so it will say QT breakers. If not, I'm assuming at least the knockouts will be the same. At this point I only have 4 EMT conduits coming in and 2 NM circuits. No worry about short wires.

 

[mm08822]

I always do copper unless out of stock and I'm jammed up for time. I've never had or seen a problem with copper stabs.

 

[reader2580]

I also spend the extra for copper bus bars. The new Siemens PN load centers now have tinned copper instead of the raw copper of the PL series. I’ve probably spent an extra $200 on copper bus bars across six load centers. (Got some good deals on open box load centers never used.)