Panel question

[bluedog225]

This is the main panel for my old 1950s house. I haven’t been in this thing for 30 years.

When I moved in in the early 90s, there was a split phase plug for the oven. My memory is a little hazy, but I recall pulling that up into the attic and dropping it back down into the wet bar for possible installation of a split phase, espresso machine. The stove is gas.

I didn’t end up getting the espresso machine. And looking up above the web bar all I see is a standard 120 V plug. I’m guessing I pulled that big split phase line back up into and capped it. [Edit – this is incorrect. See below.]

It’s hotter than heck. Before I go up there in the attic and start hunting around for a capped split phase line buried in the blown insulation, I wanted to check if there was a way looking at these breakers to guess which one would’ve controlled that circuit.

I thought I’d be able to spot it. But I’m not much of an electrician.

My other alternative is just to shut down the whole house and then go find it. Which is fine, but I’d rather keep the AC on.

Any insight appreciated. Thanks

 

[PCustoms]

What do you mean by split phase?

Are you using the plug?

What are you looking to do?

Plug a loud radio in and go flip a couple breakers....

Btw, a splice burried in insulation is a no-no

 

[mm08822]

Possibly the first red 20a cb has what could have had stove cable connected to it. It looks like it has been repurposed for 120v circuit. The black conductor with red stripes is connected to the neutral.

I can't determine if there is a neutral wire for that cable.

There are other problems in that panel. I'll list separately.

 

[bluedog225]

Spit phase-Line 1, line 2, neutral, and ground. It’s my understanding that’s what would’ve been provided to an oven.

I don’t think I’ve used the plug since then. I may have never used it. And I don’t stand behind any work. I did 30 years ago. I knew even less than that I know now.

I want to reestablish split phase power at the oven location to run an oven/microwave combo unit. Photos below. I believe the plug for the new unit is called NEMA 14–30.

I went ahead and pulled the plug above the web bar. I thought I would find 12 gauge romex from some other circuit. Instead, it’s got a black insulated wire, black insulated wire with a white piece of tape on it, and a ground wire. If I had to guess I’d say it’s 8 or 10 gauge (stranded).

So maybe I didn’t pull the wire back up. Though I can’t quite make sense of a three wire set up providing split phase. Unless it’s 1, line 2, neutral, and neutral with no ground.

And thanks for the reply.

 

[bluedog225]

Possibly the first red 20a cb has what could have had stove cable connected to it. It looks like it has been repurposed for 120v circuit. The black conductor with red stripes is connected to the neutral.

I can't determine if there is a neutral wire for that cable.

There are other problems in that panel. I'll list separately.

I’ve never messed with the panel.

But the previous owner was an electrician. And I have had electricians out here since 1995 trying to figure out some unusual wiring.

It’s entirely possible that one of the electricians out here since 95 made some changes.

 

[mm08822]

Is the white cb rated at 40 amps? What load is connected to it? Conductors look way undersized. Maybe ac unit?

The ground wires need to terminate on a dedicated ground bar because this is a sub panel.

Really time for a panel upgrade.

Can you take a pic of the panel on the right with cover off and how it connects to this one?

 

[mm08822]

There should be a 3 conductor cable going up to the stove. It may be the 2 black and a bare ground wire as the cable or a cable w/black, red, white.

Hopefully, the latter. The 4 wire plug should not be used with a 3-wire feed.

Also, a 3 wire cable with an uninsulated neutral should not be used with a subpanel for a stove or dryer.

Edited based of OP'S recent reply.

 

[yatg]

Zinsco!

 

[bluedog225]

Is the white cb rated at 40 amps? What load is connected to it? Conductors look way undersized. Maybe ac unit?

The ground wires need to terminate on a dedicated ground bar because this is a sub panel.

Really time for a panel upgrade.

Can you take a pic of the panel on the right with cover off and how it connects to this one?

Yes, white cb is 40 amps. Close-ups of the breakers are below.

I don’t know what the white CB powers. It may not be labeled correctly.

I believe this is the main panel as a fed directly by the meter panel. Photo below.

Following the circuit breaker close-ups, and the overview of the meter in this panel, is a picture of a subpanel. I’ve had the subpanel replaced in recent memory. Maybe 10 years ago.

The last photograph is the inside breaker panel. It was also replaced 10 years ago.

It would make sense if someone changed panel I was originally talking about. My memory from back in the day is that turning off the stove circuit was easy and straightforward.

 

[PCustoms]

Possibly the first red 20a cb has what could have had stove cable connected to it. It looks like it has been repurposed for 120v circuit. The black conductor with red stripes is connected to the neutral.

Kind of looks like it, especially given this:

I went ahead and pulled the plug above the web bar. I thought I would find 12 gauge romex from some other circuit. Instead, it’s got a black insulated wire, black insulated wire with a white piece of tape on it, and a ground wire. If I had to guess I’d say it’s 8 or 10 gauge (stranded).

Really does seem like it's time for an upgrade, probably an electrician

 

[PCustoms]

I believe this is the main panel as a fed directly by the meter panel. Photo below.

Yeah, this one needs an electrician, as you have no main disconnect...

 

[PCustoms]

Hopefully, the latter. The 4 wire plug should not have been used with a 3-wire feed.

I took that pic as his new plug, that's he's trying to figure out how to install

 

[bluedog225]

I’ve pulled the plug above the wet bar.

One black wire, one black wire with a white stripe, one ground wire. I will note that much of the house is ungrounded from the 50s.

White to black 120 V
black ground 120 V
White to ground zero V

 

[mm08822]

Haha, yes, that panel exceeds 6 throws of hand so changing it out to non-Zinsco with main cb is needed.

OP posted the 4wire cord as I was replying.

 

[bluedog225]

I took that pic as his new plug, that's he's trying to figure out how to install

Yes. That plug is the new plug on the new appliance. The appliance I’m now thinking of selling. Because upgrading the main panel will be a **** show. I suspect. I was hoping to die or move before that was necessary.

 

[mm08822]

I’ve pulled the plug above the wet bar.

One black wire, one black wire with a white stripe, one ground wire. I will note that much of the house is ungrounded from the 50s.

White to black 120 V
black ground 120 V
White to ground zero V

Pic of that cable possible?

The ac unit appears to be on the 40A.

Could that cable come out the subpanel with the spare 30a?

 

[PCustoms]

I’ve pulled the plug above the wet bar.

One black wire, one black wire with a white stripe, one ground wire. I will note that much of the house is ungrounded from the 50s.

White to black 120 V
black ground 120 V
White to ground zero V

I went ahead and pulled the plug above the web bar. I thought I would find 12 gauge romex from some other circuit. Instead, it’s got a black insulated wire, black insulated wire with a white piece of tape on it, and a ground wire. If I had to guess I’d say it’s 8 or 10 gauge (stranded).

Well which is it?

Post a pic...

 

[mm08822]

Disregard my comment about neutral and grounds needing to be seperated. I didn't realize that is your main panel ( with 9 throws of hand!)

 

[PCustoms]

....main panel ( with 9 throws of hand!)

Was that ever allowed? Seems nuts...

 

[bluedog225]

Well which is it?

Post a pic...

Standby. It’s two black wires. One of the black wires has a white piece of tape around it.

What’s nine throws of hand?

 

[mm08822]

Was that ever allowed? Seems nuts...

No.

 

[mm08822]

Standby. It’s two black wires. One of the black wires has a white piece of tape around it.

What’s nine throws of hand?

The white tape may be covering the red dashes if it's the same cable.

Your panel has 9 independent cbs that need to be turned off to isolate the house. 6 is the limit, and 1 is preferred.

 

[bluedog225]

The white tape may be covering the red dashes if it's the same cable.

Your panel has 9 independent cbs that need to be turned off to isolate the house. 6 is the limit, and 1 is preferred.

Got it. Thanks.

I don’t see any red stripe on either black cable.

I’m guessing if I pull a permit, I’m opening up a whole can of worms with a city inspection. As in the possibility of having to rewire the entire house.

Am I thinking correctly?

Is there an opportunity to pull split phase from one of those spares in the subpanel?


Or just abandon ship? Pretty sure I can sell this microwave/convection oven and I picked up a Restore for a profit.

 

[PCustoms]

Got it. Thanks.

I don’t see any red stripe on either black cable.

I’m guessing if I pull a permit, I’m opening up a whole can of worms with a city inspection. As in the possibility of having to rewire the entire house.

Am I thinking correctly?

Is there an opportunity to pull split phase from one of those spares in the subpanel?


Or just abandon ship? Pretty sure I can sell this microwave/convection oven and I picked up a Restore for a profit.

That's not fed from the panel you opened as far as I can tell.

Are you able/comfortable taking the cover off the sub panel?

Or, as I said before, plug a loud radio in and go flip a few breakers

 

[PCustoms]

Also did you just put that yellow nut on there?

 

[mm08822]

Not sure that is the same cable.

Open up the sub panels.

Do the appliance instructions have an option for a 3-wire cord? And you just chose the 4wire?

 

[bluedog225]

Edit

That black wire with the white tape on it does have a red stripe.

I had to get the iPhone up there and take pictures from behind. It’s coming out of the ceiling and not that easy to get to.

Sorry not to catch that earlier.

It makes more sense that it didn’t just disappear.

 

[bluedog225]

That's not fed from the panel you opened as far as I can tell.

Are you able/comfortable taking the cover off the sub panel?

Or, as I said before, plug a loud radio in and go flip a few breakers

Sorry. Yes. One black wire has a red stripe. I missed it.

Yes, I put the wire nut on there.

It looks like it requires the split phase power. See below. I didn’t choose the plug. I simply looked at what was coming out of the back of the appliance.

 

[bluedog225]

Back to this image. One black wire, one black wire with a red stripe, and one ground wire run from this panel to the plug.

I don’t know why they black wire with the red stripe was taken to the ground bar.

As I mentioned earlier, much of this house is ungrounded. But I have run across bare 12 gauge grounding wire run here and there to a couple of loads like ceiling fans. I think this was done by the previous owner.

I am comfortable, running a wire if I can reestablish the split phase circuit. I’ll have to go out and check tomorrow morning, but I believe the single ground rod is below the subpanel. [edit-ground rod at main where it should be] But it won’t be that big a project to run something through the attic and join up with this three wire run.

Though I’lll admit to being confused about the neutral ground connection location and how it works in this situation.

And yes, I can open the subpanel and photograph in the morning. [see below]

And many thanks to you all.

 

[bluedog225]

oops. Deleted duplicate.

And edited previous post.

Here’s the sub panel.

 

[mm08822]

SMH!

 

[mm08822]

Sorry. Yes. One black wire has a red stripe. I missed it.

Yes, I put the wire nut on there.

It looks like it requires the split phase power. See below. I didn’t choose the plug. I simply looked at what was coming out of the back of the appliance.

The voltage spec reads as though it is straight 240v, no 120 needed. Not common.
Then mfr pre-wired with an L14-30P.

I'm not sure what you need.

Take pic of nameplate.

 

[mm08822]

Back to this image. One black wire, one black wire with a red stripe, and one ground wire run from this panel to the plug.

I don’t know why they black wire with the red stripe was taken to the ground bar.

As I mentioned earlier, much of this house is ungrounded. But I have run across bare 12 gauge grounding wire run here and there to a couple of loads like ceiling fans. I think this was done by the previous owner.

I am comfortable, running a wire if I can reestablish the split phase circuit. I’ll have to go out and check tomorrow morning, but I believe the single ground rod is below the subpanel. [edit-ground rod at main where it should be] But it won’t be that big a project to run something through the attic and join up with this three wire run.

Though I’lll admit to being confused about the neutral ground connection location and how it works in this situation.

And yes, I can open the subpanel and photograph in the morning. [see below]

And many thanks to you all.

Forget the idea of a separate conductor. It has to be contained in the same cable.

Big red flag, is you discussing grd rods for this branch circuit.

Call a sparky.

 

[bluedog225]

The voltage spec reads as though it is straight 240v, no 120 needed. Not common.
Then mfr pre-wired with an L14-30P.

I'm not sure what you need.

Take pic of nameplate.

Here it is. I may have pulled European version of the manual.

 

[bluedog225]

Forget the idea of a separate conductor. It has to be contained in the same cable.

Big red flag, is you discussing grd rods for this branch circuit.

Call a sparky.

Mentioned the ground rod location. For some reason, I thought it was at the subpanel. Which I thought was inappropriate. But I was mistaken.

 

[yatg]

Here’s the sub panel.

That's a 3-phase panel with the black feeding two bus bars,
Center lug probably not good for 2 wires.
Props for "creative recycling".

 

[mm08822]

Here it is. I may have pulled European version of the manual.

You need a 4wire cable.

 

[bluedog225]

The guy who did that subpanel said he was the chief electrical inspector at one time. Though probably in the 70s.

I could pull a wire from the appliance location to the attic, get an electrician to re land the red striped wire, and make the final connection.

But if I need a 4 wire, pulling the wire from the panel is going to be way more trouble than this appliance is worth.

I’ll try to sell it.

Thank you all for the assist. I thought it was going to be an easier fix.

 

[PCustoms]

That's a 3-phase panel with the black feeding two bus bars,
Center lug probably not good for 2 wires.
Props for "creative recycling".

Thanks for explaining that.

I saw the jumper and had a WTF moment.


OP really needs to get these panels swapped out. The main panel, being outside, will be pretty quick, but require an electrician because the meter needs to be pulled.

 

[yatg]

WTF moment.

my reaction too.
It'll work, obviously. Breaker placement is important for 240 circuits and MWBCs.