panel replacement to add welder outlet.

[M0SES]

I'm looking at adding a welder outlet in my garage. From what i can see i have a 20space 24circuit panel in my basement that is full. Can I install a larger panel to get more spaces without upgrading anything else? I clearly have more breakers than the 125A main, so what's the limit on how much more you can have in the panel? I was planning to put NM-B 6/2 on a 50amp breaker for the welder plug in the garage.

Another question, would it be worth my time to pull 6/3 so i could put a sub panel or 4 wire device in at a future date if desired?

i've probably left out many details but i'll try to clarify as necessary.

 

[CNGsaves]

Attached or Detached garage ???

What power demands in garage ?? What power in garage now (if any) ??

Any subpanel in garage now ?? If so, PIC's . . . cover on . . AND . . cover off.

Yes to upgrade house panel if it only has 20 spaces. Price out 40 space 125A main panel.

Post up PIC's of main panel in house. . . . cover on . . . AND . . . cover off.

Distance and difficulties in getting wire from house basement to garage ???

GJ Sparkies will chime in with specific details.

 

[CJ7VFR]

What about using tandem breakers to gain some space in the panel?

If you have some 15 amp or 20 amp breakers next to each other, you can put in two tandem breakers
to gain two open slots to install a double pole breaker for the welder.

Most of the time, there is enough wire going to the regular breakers to be able to move them down a space or two in order to install the tandems.

Jim

 

[sberry]

If you are short of spaces a 3 wire for a new panel is a good idea and a 6 space Homeline is about 20$ As a side note unless you have a 250 mig running all out you really don't need a 6. Every other factory cord model runs from 10.

 

[sberry]

I can so I do but really if I was going to run a 6 from a crowded panel would absolutely put another panel on the other end. You could add an air comp and an outlet for power tools. Leave the original wiring for lights and such and have new dedicated for tool loads.
I did this on a whirlwind house, the main was going to fill fast and I wanted it wired for heating circuits upstairs, it cost a little extra wire and a couple spaces, a new panel for the second floor was easier and cheaper.

 

[Zeke]

I'm looking at adding a welder outlet in my garage. From what i can see i have a 20space 24circuit panel in my basement that is full. Can I install a larger panel to get more spaces without upgrading anything else? I clearly have more breakers than the 125A main, so what's the limit on how much more you can have in the panel? I was planning to put NM-B 6/2 on a 50amp breaker for the welder plug in the garage.

Another question, would it be worth my time to pull 6/3 so i could put a sub panel or 4 wire device in at a future date if desired?

i've probably left out many details but i'll try to clarify as necessary.

To answer the question in bold type, as much as it can handle. The idea of breakers is to protect individual wires, e.g., circuits. If you have too many circuits all drawing current, the main breaks. That's when it's a clear indication you need a bigger main panel.

AFA adding a welding circuit, it won't make any difference whether you set a sub panel or not. You still have to have a breaker for the panel in the main. You could do as mentioned above and set a sub panel for a couple circuits but you won't put a 50 amp circuit along with another of any rating fed by a 50 amp breaker. So you lose the ability to have what you started out for.

Maybe take some general lighting circuits and put them into slim breakers freeing up enough space for the welding circuit.

If I were you, I'd start putting money away in the piggy bank for a service upgrade.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

What brand is the existing panel?

 

[M0SES]

Ok, Picture time.

so first up meter base and outside panel. 125A going inside and 40A for the AC.

Next is SE wire coming in, it looks like AL 0-0-0-2 which is right on for the 125A main outside.

in the panel.

When we ran a dedicated 20A line for my computer closet we tried to put in another tandem breaker but it wouldn't fit on any but the bottom four slots, the upper breakers lug is slightly different.


so you can fill a panel to the brim with the number of slots just so long the source line is protected at it's rated capacity?


as far as power in the garage, it has lights and 2 outlets,(one is a garage door opener) I planned to pull at least 2 20A outlet circuits along with the welder if i can make space in the main.

Is there any reason i couldn't install something like this as long as the main is still protected at 125A?
Homeline 200A 40 Space 80 Circuit

The garage is attached, the pull would be up through an interior wall and across the attic.

what is the best practice to putting breakers in a box? all the big ones in the top? smaller on down?

Sorry if this is a jumble, Just trying to answer all the questions.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO replace some of the 15 and 20 amp single beakers with those 2 in1 breakers to gain some slots for your welder and other new breakers.

As far as arrangement, I am not aware of any preferred practice regarding the placement of branch circuit breakers, just make sure they are labeled.

 

[FordTruckWench]

When we ran a dedicated 20A line for my computer closet we tried to put in another tandem breaker but it wouldn't fit on any but the bottom four slots, the upper breakers lug is slightly different.

IMHO replace some of the 15 and 20 amp single beakers with those 2 in1 breakers to gain some slots for your welder and other new breakers.

The OP can't add any more tandem breakers - the panel is not rated for it / physically does not allow it.

Is there any reason i couldn't install something like this as long as the main is still protected at 125A?
Homeline 200A 40 Space 80 Circuit

Since you already have a Square-D QO panel, stick with the QO type. It is better than Homeline - besides, you already have a bunch of QO breakers.

 

[Norcal]

The OP can't add any more tandem breakers - the panel is not rated for it / physically does not allow it.




Since you already have a Square-D QO panel, stick with the QO type. It is better than Homeline - besides, you already have a bunch of QO breakers.

Not a QO, it's a SQ D HOMO line panel but would be a easy swap to a 40 space model.

 

[bczygan]

Not a QO, it's a SQ D HOMO line panel but would be a easy swap to a 40 space model.

It may not be politically correct....but I never use those HOMO panels!

 

[grizz_660]

You can install a 200A rated panel, even though you only have a 100A service. Nothing wrong with that. Or you can install a pony panel off your current panel.

 

[Zeke]

You can install a 200A rated panel, even though you only have a 100A service. Nothing wrong with that. Or you can install a pony panel off your current panel.

The 2nd statement does not address the lack of space for a breaker for that panel. To do this, some circuits would have to be moved over to that panel. I just went through this.

what is the best practice to putting breakers in a box? all the big ones in the top? smaller on down?

Not a bad design but more importantly is to more or less balance the load between the 2 legs. You would need a clamp on amp meter and some history before you could know how to arrange your circuits.

 

[ForceFed70]

If you can't add more double-density breakers, what I'd recommend you do is put a subpanel right beside/near your existing panel. Remove a couple of circuits from the main panel, replace with a breaker/circuit for a subpanel and then re-connect those circuits you removed from the main panel into your new subpanel.

Way easier than doing a complete panel upgrade/swap. Full panel upgrades are often challenging as you inevitably end up with some circuits that are too short to fit in the new panel.

My brother and father are both electricians and own their own electrical companies. They've both told me that more often than not - when they do a panel upgrade for a homeowner (and it's not part of a major reno) they end up keeping the old panel in place and use it as a glorified junction box to get around the problem mentioned above (some existing wires too short). It's ugly, but it works. I wouldn't go down that route tho unless you have one of those panels that are known to be a fire hazard.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You can install a 200A rated panel, even though you only have a 100A service. Nothing wrong with that. Or you can install a pony panel off your current panel.

Thats not a 100a service.

 

[FordTruckWench]

Not a QO, it's a SQ D HOMO line panel but would be a easy swap to a 40 space model.

Damn! Your right. (Note to self - don't post after a long tiring day.)

It looks like all the wire comes in from the top...

Looking at a SQD catalog, the existing 20 space panel is probably in a "box 8" housing. 30 space panels use a "box 10" and 40 space panels use "box 12". Presumably, the panel internals on the bigger boxes may be mounted just as close to the top as "box 8". Thus all the wires should be long enough to reach inside a bigger panel.

 

[M0SES]

Thanks guys, this is what i needed to know!

When installing the welder wire to the garage, it needs to be stapled going through the attic and unfinished garage but not in the stud bay since i'd be fishing it right?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The sq-d homeline single pole breakers are designed so you can double tap the wires on them legally.
Take 4 lightly loaded circuits and double them up on 2 beakers,That will give you room for an extra 2pole breaker.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Or you can install a pony panel off your current panel.

To do this, some circuits would have to be moved over to that panel.

If there is space immediately below or to the side of that panel a "pony" panel is the cheapest and easiest solution. Something like a main lug 6 space, 12 circuit.

Remove 2 (full sized) breakers and install a 2 pole breaker for the second panel. Connect the 2 panels with a short piece of conduit. Make sure it is large enough for all the wires. You will have to splice the 2 hots you just removed and corresponding neutrals and grounds and run them to a tandem in the new box as well as the wire from the new 2 pole breaker you installed.


Much cheaper and quicker than a whole new panel !

 

[theoldwizard1]

The sq-d homeline single pole breakers are designed so you can double tap the wires on them legally.

Never seen that. Got a picture ?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I dug one out of the van and looped a jumper wire in to show how it works.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I dug one out of the van and looped a jumper wire in to show how it works.

I guess you have to be pretty careful when you install a second circuit to that in order to not over load the breaker, especially if it was 20 amps.

Is this any different than someone tapping into an existing circuit, and adding on more receptacles and switched items down the line from it? Seems to be the same basic principle. Just an easier way to run a new line to exactly where you need it.

Jim

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I guess you have to be pretty careful when you install a second circuit to that in order to not over load the breaker, especially if it was 20 amps.

Is this any different than someone tapping into an existing circuit, and adding on more receptacles and switched items down the line from it? Seems to be the same basic principle. Just an easier way to run a new line to exactly where you need it.

Jim

This way you can tie together any 2 circuits you want. Thats why I said to tie lightly loaded circuits together.

 

[CJ7VFR]

This way you can tie together any 2 circuits you want. Thats why I said to tie lightly loaded circuits together.

Gotcha! I have a few very lightly loaded circuits in my homes main panel, and this seems like an ideal way to add a few things since my panel is already completely full, and it already has the maximum amount of tandem breakers.

This would work great for running a new line to add a few shop lights in a garage or basement versus trying to find and tap into another line somewhere in the wall.

I could also see doing this to run a line to add a single receptacle outside to hook up a radio on my patio!

Jim

 

[pattenp]

You can do the same with any breaker by pig tailing 2 circuits together within the panel. As said just make sure the 2 circuits don't overload the breaker. Not a best practice but legit.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You can do the same with any breaker by pig tailing 2 circuits together within the panel. As said just make sure the 2 circuits don't overload the breaker. Not a best practice but legit.

ROGER THAT !

And don't think "I'll take two 14 gauge, 15A circuits, hook them to a 12 gauge wire and then hook that to a 20A breaker for some cushion !" That is asking for a major failure !!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

ROGER THAT !

And don't think "I'll take two 14 gauge, 15A circuits, hook them to a 12 gauge wire and then hook that to a 20A breaker for some cushion !" That is asking for a major failure !!

you cant feed the 14s off of a 20a breaker.

 

[M0SES]

So this got a little off topic, I find it odd that my current panel doesn't have a shutoff in it, should it?

Is there any reason i cannot install a larger main panel with a 200A disconnect inside the panel as long as the 125A breaker is maintained upstream? Code references are welcome.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

So this got a little off topic, I find it odd that my current panel doesn't have a shutoff in it, should it?

Is there any reason i cannot install a larger main panel with a 200A disconnect inside the panel as long as the 125A breaker is maintained upstream? Code references are welcome.

You want to install 200a guts into a smaller panel?

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . is that meter and exterior 125A disconnect . . . ONLY . . . for garage ??
If so, that is your disconnect and reason why no "main breaker" in the subpanel. Whoever wired that initially just cheaped out on the subpanel.

Yes if I were you and changing out the subpanel, I'd add one with main breaker disconnect. It could be 200A panel w/ main breaker as that would act as shutoff for the 125A being fed from upstream.

 

[M0SES]

You want to install 200a guts into a smaller panel?

No, Want to pull a small panel out of the basement and replace it to gain additional spaces to pull welder outlet + future proofing.

OP . . . . is that meter and exterior 125A disconnect . . . ONLY . . . for garage ??
If so, that is your disconnect and reason why no "main breaker" in the subpanel. Whoever wired that initially just cheaped out on the subpanel.

Yes if I were you and changing out the subpanel, I'd add one with main breaker disconnect. It could be 200A panel w/ main breaker as that would act as shutoff for the 125A being fed from upstream.

The meter and exterior 125A feed the house panel in the basement.
As far as i know the 20 space panel in the basement is original to the house in 98.

 

[brewchief]

Yes you can use a 200 amp panel, the breaker outside will provide protection for the service wire. You could use either a main lug panel or a main breaker panel, if you use a main breaker panel the breaker is simply acting as a disconnect.


I would use a square D homeline panel since it would allow you to reuse breakers but more importantly the connections at the top of the panel should be very close to the same.

You will need to add a ground bar or two(one on each side can make life much easier) and remove the neutral to ground bond.

I think I would also see what the meter base and service feeding the house are rated at, you may only need a few feet of wire and a new main breaker to upgrade to a true 200 amp service.