Passed my electrical inspection

[ct03911]

Not being an electrician I have been a bit nervous about today's inspection in my detached 26x28. Passed with no problem.

This all started last fall when I hired an electrician to mount the panel and run two circuits. He did such sloppy work I pulled it all out and did the job myself.

It took me a while but I now have 100amp on a recessed panel in the garage, 20 circuits including an LP Hot Dawg heater, 220 for hot water, a 10K lift and an ac unit. Lots of outlets and lots of lights, security, fire alarm etc.

I also ran a small subpanel to the second floor future apartment with 100amp service.

The inspector just walked around the garage and never even opened the panel. Never went upstairs. He just looked at the wire runs, outlet layout and staples etc and said I'm good to go. He did look closely at the wiring on the LP heater.

Plus one for neatness, I assume. I was very careful laying out wire runs to make it all look very neat.

I appreciate all the help of this board. This is a big deal to me and I learned a ton from this forum. Time for insulation.

 

[homebuilt burner]

I still have a picture of the "approved final" sticker from my garage wiring and other inspections.

Feels good doesn't it.

 

[naturalgas]

I applaud you ! [emoji1433]. Nice job


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tim_P]

Always nice to see someone take pride in doing a good job!

 

[pattenp]

Good that you did it yourself but a couple things raise questions.

1. Is the garage main panel fed from another panel?
2. Looks like the strands of one neutral and both grounds on the feeders are split under two screws.
3. Was the feeder to the garage spliced to SER in the LB below the panel?
4. What size wire is the feeder to the garage and second floor subpanel?

I think the inspector may have overlooked somethings.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

In addition to what pattenp questioned it looks like u have a GE main with a different brand of branch breakers.

What brand are the other breakers?

I dont see the GEC for grounding electrodes.

Is the neutral bar isolated?

 

[D. Patina]

I'll be at this stage soon and have a couple questions.

1. What were the first two circuits that you had him run, I would assume lights and a few outlets?

2. What type of permit did you put to do the electrical yourself.

Admire that you did it yourself. Well done!

 

[ct03911]

A few answers:

"1. Is the garage main panel fed from another panel?"
Yes. The house has a 200amp main panel feeding a subpanel in the attached main garage and then that feeds this detached garage panel.

"2. Looks like the strands of one neutral and both grounds on the feeders are split under two screws."
Correct. That was the way the electrician did it so I followed suit.

"3. Was the feeder to the garage spliced to SER in the LB below the panel?"
Not exactly sure what all this means but there is no splice in the conduit.

"4. What size wire is the feeder to the garage and second floor subpanel?"
I don't know the gauge, if that's what you are asking. I went to an electrical supply house nearby and asked for the appropriate wire to run 100amp. The must have mentioned the gauge but I forget.

100amp goes from the main garage to this detached garage and 100amp runs up to the future apt above.

"In addition to what pattenp questioned it looks like u have a GE main with a different brand of branch breakers."
I see that now. The previous electrician had the GE main and Eaton for the branch breakers. For each additional branch I just followed with matching Eaton breakers.

"What brand are the other breakers?"
Eaton

"I dont see the GEC for grounding electrodes."
Not sure what this means.

Is the neutral bar isolated?
Yes.

"1. What were the first two circuits that you had him run, I would assume lights and a few outlets?"
He ran the 100amp main, a garage door branch and and a 20amp outlet.

"2. What type of permit did you put to do the electrical yourself."
I had the electrician pull a permit upon the advice of the town. He was doing the main panel and a few circuits. At that point I was planning on him perhaps doing the whole job. The town told me I could run as much as I wanted.

Basically, I took down his wall mounted panel with two circuits on it, disconnected everything, recessed the panel and put his circuits back in, cleaned up his wiring etc.

I then ran the remaining branches after his silly quote came in and his eyes glazed over as I explained the circuits I wanted.

The inspector never looked at the panel on this visit. He did say he had "seen it before", and he did when he came out for the framing inspection. At that time it was mounted on a piece of plywood with two circuits. His comment at that time was about the two wire runs but he said "I'm not here for the wiring, but you might want your electrician to fix those wires..."

It was his comment, and the quote to finish, that made me decide to take this on. The inspector may have assumed the electrician finished it all. It never came up in conversation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The strands of the neutrals and grounds should be under one hole each. If they dont all fit together then u need a drop in lug.

SER is a type of jacketed cable and u have that in the subpanel. Since theres no splices between the inside and outside that means this runs underground which is NOT permitted. The bare ground will turn into a pastey substance. This wire needs to be replaced.

If the panel is a GE, then the Eaton BR breakers need to be replaced with GE breakers. If the brand is Eaton BR, then the GE main needs to be replaced with an Eaton BR main.

The GEC is the wire that connects grounding electrodes to the panel. I dont see one. Do u have grounding electrodes? If not u need to add them.

This is some bad hack work and if an "electrician" did this work, he needs to fix it. Its not up to code and the inspector was lazy and missed quite a bit!

 

[pattenp]

Wylie hit on my concerns with his responses. The stranded wire should not be split between two connection points on the bar. The ground is not as big of an issue but current carrying conductors such as the neutral being split can set up the potential for arcing. The splice question was because I see SER cable going into conduit that I assume goes back to the attached garage and as Wylie said SER is not allowed below grade, even in conduit. I assumed you had spliced the SER to other wire approved to be underground. This is all assuming the feed is underground from the attached garage to the detached garage. The last thing was the size of the feeder wire size being used. From my eye the feeder looks like #2 Al and as a branch feeder is good to a max of 90 amps, not 100 amps.

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to rain on your parade.





*

 

[lakeroadster]

... The inspector may have assumed the electrician finished it all....

Inspectors are there to do their assigned job and not make assumptions..... the guy didn't even pull the cover on the breaker box? Totally incompetent.

This *****.. and you're left picking up the pieces and paying the price for rework.

I know your pain, I went through a similar experience recently. The good news is Wylie and Pattenp can help you do this right. We're lucky to have them here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Basically, I took down his wall mounted panel with two circuits on it, disconnected everything, recessed the panel and put his circuits back in, cleaned up his wiring etc.

i then ran the remaining branches after his silly quote came in and his eyes glazed over as I explained the circuits I wanted.

The inspector never looked at the panel on this visit. He did say he had "seen it before", and he did when he came out for the framing inspection. At that time it was mounted on a piece of plywood with two circuits. His comment at that time was about the two wire runs but he said "I'm not here for the wiring, but you might want your electrician to fix those wires..."

It was his comment, and the quote to finish, that made me decide to take this on. The inspector may have assumed the electrician finished it all. It never came up in conversation.

I skipped over this last part last time i read it. Your "electrician" is a hack and it definitely sounds like the inspector didnt do his job. All this stuff wouldve been very obvious to an inspector that knows electrical in less than 3 minutes of looking things over.

The problem youre gonna have now is that your "electrician" will say I dont need to fix it because it passed inspection, even though it shouldnt have. Sadly, work like this is suppose to be caught through the permit process. Thats the whole purpose for it. The system has failed you!

U should definitely fix all this mess.

 

[jeffmoss26]

Yikes...

 

[pattenp]

ct03911 is being rather quiet. He's probably wishing he hadn't made this post.

 

[bullnerd]

Or, he's enjoying his newly powered up shop.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not for long.

A Lightning strike or water in the conduit will ruin it quick

 

[Homebody]

The OP did all this work himself, electrician isn't on the hook for anything other than his initial hack job - which the OP then cleaned up but still copied the original hack job but with more circuits.
The inspector should be fired.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The OP did all this work himself, electrician isn't on the hook for anything other than his initial hack job - which the OP then cleaned up but still copied the original hack job but with more circuits.
The inspector should be fired.

We dont know if the OP or his "electrician" was the one who ran the feeder wire or who forgot the electrodes...

 

[sberry]

It needs things fixed. The last one I did the guy was thorough.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . . how long is distance of buried feed between buildings ??

Also, how far is distance on the power feed up to 2nd floor apartment ??

Really need 100A for electrical loads ??

GJ Sparky's can set you straight if you provide all the details. Good luck.

 

[bczygan]

Hope the OP comes back.

Lot of unfinished business.

Bill

 

[ct03911]

Every freakin time I write a reply, this board logs me out and I lose it before I post it.
One more very shortened response.

I changed the breakers out to GE. I replaced the split wires with lugs.

The electrical supply house swears this SER wire is all they sell in 100amp and the electrician says it is all he uses. Oh, and he is now out of business. Great. The inspector looked at it twice, during the framing inspection and, admittedly, pretty casually during this electrical inspection.

I called Southwire who makes the Alumaflex cable. They verified it is NOT rated for underground. So much for the electrician, supply house and inspector.

Ok, so I originally wanted 200amp anyways. That is another contractor fail story where the conduit that was run back when the garage foundation was poured is only suitable for 100amp. Pissed me off but I moved on.

Now I'm thinking:

Run new 200amp wire some 75' from the main home existing 200amp panel, thru my basement and up to a new 200amp panel in my garage.

Dig a ditch 40' from the main garage to the new detached garage. Drop 200amp service wire in there and a new 200amp subpanel in the detached garage.

Either keep the 100amp running some 50' to the future apartment above or consider other options there.

My basement is unfinished and both my garages are as well, so far. Now is probably the time if I'm going to have to run new service, to just do it right and move to 200amp.

thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[sberry]

These boards are great. A lot of guys have learned to do this right from here. I was going to comment to an inspector about learning it from the internet. We often hear,,, wouldn't take someones advice from here, ask in person etc and not always such a reliable idea.
A lot of people do this work, there are a lot of people work in the electrical field as professionals but not every guy that repairs a cord is fluent in code install for service entrance.

 

[James-W]

If it were me I would be looking at getting a new 200 amp electrical service installed. Yes, there will be a monthly meter charge so it will cost more money in the long run, but you will have all the power you need.

 

[brewchief]

Every freakin time I write a reply, this board logs me out and I lose it before I post it.
One more very shortened response.

I changed the breakers out to GE. I replaced the split wires with lugs.

The electrical supply house swears this SER wire is all they sell in 100amp and the electrician says it is all he uses. Oh, and he is now out of business. Great. The inspector looked at it twice, during the framing inspection and, admittedly, pretty casually during this electrical inspection.

I called Southwire who makes the Alumaflex cable. They verified it is NOT rated for underground. So much for the electrician, supply house and inspector.

Ok, so I originally wanted 200amp anyways. That is another contractor fail story where the conduit that was run back when the garage foundation was poured is only suitable for 100amp. Pissed me off but I moved on.

Now I'm thinking:

Run new 200amp wire some 75' from the main home existing 200amp panel, thru my basement and up to a new 200amp panel in my garage.

Dig a ditch 40' from the main garage to the new detached garage. Drop 200amp service wire in there and a new 200amp subpanel in the detached garage.

Either keep the 100amp running some 50' to the future apartment above or consider other options there.

My basement is unfinished and both my garages are as well, so far. Now is probably the time if I'm going to have to run new service, to just do it right and move to 200amp.

thanks for the feedback guys.

Before you make a bunch of changes decide if you really need 200 amps at either garage, very few folks would. What do you have for power needs? What equipment?
Is the SER wire in conduit the entire underground run? You might get lucky and be able to pull it out and replace with 2-2-2-4 MHF wire instead and be good.

 

[ct03911]

My needs in this detached garage consist of:

220 window AC unit or Hot Dawg LP heater running
40 gal hot water heater
220 auto lift
dehumidifier
compressor
significant amount of lighting
possible electric car charger

In addition, the second floor is suitable for a future apartment so it could have all the various requirements of one, oven, fridge, heat, lighting etc.

I always figured 200amp would cover me and maybe someone else for resale who might have a more robust shop, welder, renter apartment, whatever. I was hoping the 100amp would suffice after the conduit was sized wrong but now that the 100amp SER has to come out I need to re-consider setting up with 200amp.

 

[ct03911]

.

"The GEC is the wire that connects grounding electrodes to the panel. I dont see one. Do u have grounding electrodes? If not u need to add them."

wyliediesels, can you explain this piece a bit more? I can't seem to find information on this very well.

The subpanel is as the electrician set it up. All I did was remove it and re-install it flush and add more branches.

If it needs "grounding electrodes" I am not clear on that.

One more thing: remember, my home has a main 200amp panel. That panel is grounded by two copper rods driven into the earth outside the home.

From that runs a 100amp feed to my main garage and a 100amp panel there.

From all that is the questionable underground feed to this detached garage's 100amp panel.

Thanks.

 

[Cmreschke]

If your feed is to an attached garage then rods not required. If your feed is to a detached garage then you still need to put ground rods in. It is a seperate outbuilding? If so then it doesn't matter what you have at the house you will need the ground rods here as well as at the house. Just drive 2 rods at least 6 ft apart and run a 6 to the rods from your sub panel.

 

[ct03911]

Cmreschke, I appreciate the feedback.

Do you have any reference I can look at and quote?

I am just blown away that my electrician and the inspector would both miss this.

Yes, it is a very detached garage. It is 40' from my house.

If the main home is grounded I'm having trouble seeing why this isn't grounded to that as it is wired, but again, I'm not an electrician.

Can you help me with a reference?

 

[pattenp]

cmreschke, i appreciate the feedback.

do you have any reference i can look at and quote?
i am just blown away that my electrician and the inspector would both miss this.

Yes, it is a very detached garage. It is 40' from my house.

If the main home is grounded i'm having trouble seeing why this isn't grounded to that as it is wired, but again, i'm not an electrician.

Can you help me with a reference?

2014 nec 250.32

 

[ct03911]

Thanks for the reference. You know what, I'm not an electrician. Reading NEC code is actually not helpful to me right now because it is laden with electrical nomenclature and really beyond where I am at. I tried reading it. I appreciate the direction.

I called three electrical contractors today. I'm hoping one will call me back, that's about my odds.

If I can get a guy here I have some idea of the issues in my system and I'll see what they suggest.

Again, my worst case scenario is I need a new line from my main panel to my garage subpanel and from there via a new ditch, to my detached garage subpanel. I'll need two new 200amp panels too.

I'll worry about the apartment future needs later. It might actually be ok.

I'll need these grounds or bonding wires or whatever addressed. Probably not a big deal aside from me not being able to learn the electrical code lingo about it tonight.

Maybe my next contractor will have actually passed the test to be licensed and get it right. At some point my inspector will have to come back because I'm not going to do all this and not have him look at it. Even though he also missed stuff, if my garage burns down he'll probably be at the front of the line of folks asking why I changed stuff without his approval.

*Edit* Looking back through this...it was the electrician who ran the feeder wire and did not install grounding electrodes. Saw some questions about that.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My needs in this detached garage consist of:

220 window AC unit or Hot Dawg LP heater running
40 gal hot water heater
220 auto lift
dehumidifier
compressor
significant amount of lighting
possible electric car charger

In addition, the second floor is suitable for a future apartment so it could have all the various requirements of one, oven, fridge, heat, lighting etc.

I always figured 200amp would cover me and maybe someone else for resale who might have a more robust shop, welder, renter apartment, whatever. I was hoping the 100amp would suffice after the conduit was sized wrong but now that the 100amp SER has to come out I need to re-consider setting up with 200amp.

I would go with the 200a because of the apartment, compressor, amd AC.

wyliediesels, can you explain this piece a bit more? I can't seem to find information on this very well.

The subpanel is as the electrician set it up. All I did was remove it and re-install it flush and add more branches.

If it needs "grounding electrodes" I am not clear on that.

One more thing: remember, my home has a main 200amp panel. That panel is grounded by two copper rods driven into the earth outside the home.

From that runs a 100amp feed to my main garage and a 100amp panel there.

From all that is the questionable underground feed to this detached garage's 100amp panel.

Thanks.

Detached structures are REQUIRED to have grounding electrodes. These are for grounding lightning strikes. The house main service panel needs them and so does the subpanel in your garage.

Cmreschke, I appreciate the feedback.

Do you have any reference I can look at and quote?

I am just blown away that my electrician and the inspector would both miss this.

Yes, it is a very detached garage. It is 40' from my house.

If the main home is grounded I'm having trouble seeing why this isn't grounded to that as it is wired, but again, I'm not an electrician.

Can you help me with a reference?

EGCs aka grounds and grounding electrodes are 2 different animals. EGCs provide low resistant paths for fault current. Grounding electrodes main function is to ground lightning strikes, limit the voltage to ground, etc. U need both on a subpanel in a detached structure. Many people get confused by this.

Heres an article that should help u:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/articles/the-confusion-of-the-term-grounding/

Also heres a great diagram that should help:

 

[jekquist]

Thanks for all the great info. This will help me when I run my power soon. Sorry you got someone who did crappy work. Was the electrician representing a company, or just himself?

 

[Al G]

I'm not an electrician, but how can a 100 amp panel feed another 100 amp panel?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not an electrician, but how can a 100 amp panel feed another 100 amp panel?

Because its all about the actual load on the panel.

 

[Cmreschke]

I'm not an electrician, but how can a 100 amp panel feed another 100 amp panel?

With a 100 amp breaker?

 

[ct03911]

Thank you to everyone for the feedback. I'm reading all the info and links.

I have two electricians coming over the next two days to look over the situation.
The original guy owned his own company for some 8-9 years in my town.

The inspector has also been around for quite some time. He does every inspection except septic or fire code stuff.

This is a hard way to learn and will be expensive but the alternative is worse.

Thanks again gents.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thank you to everyone for the feedback. I'm reading all the info and links.

I have two electricians coming over the next two days to look over the situation.
The original guy owned his own company for some 8-9 years in my town.

The inspector has also been around for quite some time. He does every inspection except septic or fire code stuff.

This is a hard way to learn and will be expensive but the alternative is worse.

Thanks again gents.

The inspector has no business inspecting electrical if he passes this much faulty hack work!

 

[ct03911]

I hear you wylie. He has a very well known area reputation as being a grump, which is the nicest way I can put it. It's not what most people call him, if you get my drift. He tries to intimidate everyone.

He looked at the panel when he did the framing inspection because he made negative comments about the wire runs for the couple of circuits the electrician had run.

If he had said something then my electrician was still in business and this could have been fixed then. Now it will cost me quite a bit I suspect.

When he came out this last time for the electrical itself, he was in a great mood. I was actually trying to look at him and remember if it was the same guy. Anyways, I didn't want to get into a lot of conversation with him or chit chat about who did what wiring the garage and 'don't you want to look at the panel' kind of stuff.
It really seemed best to just smile and say thank-you.

It's funny, he wanted to know more about my lift than anything. He was also there to inspect that because the town had me pull a permit for that. He was saying I didn't need one. He had no real comment when I said the folks in the office were the ones who told me to pull a permit for it.

You can't buck city hall. I'll have him back when all the issues are resolved and have him re-inspect it. That should be interesting when I tell him what was corrected since his inspection.

 

[ct03911]

Time for an update.
Thank you to all who chimed in.
My wiring service was indeed a mess.
A short recap: I had an electrician pull the feeder wire into the detached garage and do a panel and a couple circuits.
Every freakin thing he did was not to code, according to you guys - and correctly so.
Thanks for the feedback.
So... He is now out of business. I called three other electricians. One showed and quoted the fix.
I now have copper wire vs aluminum appropriate for underground from my home to the detached garage. The breakers are all GE to match the panel. Everything is bonded and a grounding rod is in place.

This contractor pulled a permit too, even for what was understood to be a "fix".
I look forward to the town inspector coming back to inspect what he already approved once.
You walk on thin ice letting a town inspector know he is a...well, *****.
I need him to return for my insulation inspection.
Hey, I'm not going to be a deek to him but his incompetence did cost me seven weeks delay and $700.
Moving on.
I'm sorry I don't have pic's here but I have a properly wired panel now because of you guys.
Thanks very much.
D