Pay for a working machine vs. rebuilding it?

[Packard V8]

Over the past fifty years, I've rebuilt dozens of table saws, radial arm saws, drill presses, jointers, planers, tool and cutter grinders, tappet grinders, rod boring machines, lathes, power hand tools and the like.

In the bad old days, the used parts market was uneven and sometimes it took months or years to find the needed parts. Today's internet and of course, eBay has made it immeasurably easier to find parts. However, the asking prices I'm seeing today are just insane.

For example, on our local craigslist for $50, I bought a Delta 17" drill press missing a spindle and the table raising mechanism. This was both a bargain and a money pit. These classic DPs are selling for from $400 to $1200, depending on condition, motor, table and tooling.

When I started looking for the missing parts, I found both spindles, #2MT and JT33, relatively easily and somewhat affordably. Those two, plus some misc fasteners, plus shipping and there went another $100. The table raising rack is going to be at least $50, a new belt $10.

So, I'm into this bargain DP $210, plus a full day's labor stripping, cleaning, painting, reassembly and parts chasing. It still needs the cover raising and locking mechanism fabricated. By the time I'm done, I figure it is worth at least $500, so at most a $250 savings.

The nutso thing is if one takes eBay asking prices as market value, I could have parted it out for $500 profit. But no easy money there, as there is considerable labor in photographing, writing and posting listings, answering numbnuts questions, packaging, shipping and dealing with numbnuts buyer complaints.

I guess I've answered my own question. I enjoy the rebuilding more than retail on-line parts re-selling. Your opinions and results may vary.

The other part of the equation - I've seldom-to-never bought a used machine, even those complete and operating, which didn't need some work on the bearings, belts, switches, wiring and always the general de-crudding.

jack vines

 

[Packard V8]

My observations, experiences, opinions and results closely parallel yours. . . .For example, in my area, there are many old table saws. I won't pick one up unless there's an uncommon option or accessory and it's very inexpensive. I won't recondition a TS or RAS.

What's strange is while the eBay parts prices have gone sky-high, the local demand for the complete machines has gone in the toilet.

Agree, there is zero demand for table or radial saws and very little for drill presses, wood lathes, jointers and other woodworking machinery. Forty years ago, when I reconned one, I'd run a classified ad in the Saturday newspaper and there'd be guys in the driveway fighting over who got there first to buy it. Recently, there was no one locally who wanted them at very fair prices, so several complete working Delta machines went to an African buyer.

jack vines

 

[jywilli69]

I think if you put effort in rehabbing a machine, you should get what you think is a fair price. I saw a Delta/Jointer combo for sale in our area. From looks of the picture, it looked like a clean up, replace bearings. Guy who had it, gave it to me. I went to pick it up, it turned out to be a parts saw. I have a couple pieces to the jointer that I will try to get fixed. Pieces that was salvageable, the stand, motor and majority of the jointer. I have a Delta 1160 Table Saw and stand. I will try to fix the jointer on that stand, so I can have a combo. We just have to be patient and let the right buyer come to us. I sold a Craftsman Table Saw, with original fence, blade guard, motor and stand. I never got to replace the bearings and clean it up. It ran great and I sold it for $200. The guy knew he would have to replace the belt, bearings and clean up the cast iron table top. I look at machines on what it would cost me to replace it. Motors aren't cheap, so if I get a saw with motor for less than $100, I am happy. I have fun collecting old machines, not in it for a business. I have a Delta 860 table saw that I am stripping down, because I can't afford to fix due to to much pot metal broken. A tleast someone will be able to use some of the parts.

 

[Packard V8]

I think if you put effort in rehabbing a machine, you should get what you think is a fair price. . . . We just have to be patient and let the right buyer come to us.

Agree, but local conditions have convinced me otherwise. I'm out of the fix-and-resell business. For whatever reason, few young guys today are at all interested in woodworking or home remodeling.

jack vines

 

[jywilli69]

Agree, but local conditions have convinced me otherwise. I'm out of the fix-and-resell business. For whatever reason, few young guys today are at all interested in woodworking or home remodeling.

jack vines

Jack, I have been into old machines less than 2 yrs. I do the old machines as a substitution to doing wood work. I want to learn how to fix the old machines. I can have the following machines.

1936 Craftsman 8" Bench Saw 471 $45
1937 Delta 1160 10" Circular Saw $25
1949 Craftsman Jointer Traded for
1935 Delta 412" Jointer free
2- Vintage Delta Stands
3-Craftsman Stands
1930's Craftsman Table Saw, which I am waiting to pick up. Free
1950 Craftsman Bench Top Drill Press $50

I have plenty of time to restore them, just not enough $$$. I am enjoying picking up these nice finds and look forward to fix everyone of them up. I paid $50 or less for each piece. I will get all machines rehabbed and either keep them or sell them if I can upgrade them.

 

[Packard V8]

I have plenty of time to restore them, just not enough $$$. I am enjoying picking up these nice finds and look forward to fix everyone of them

Doing well by a well-built machine is its own reward. I've occasionally restored one and gifted it to a deserving person or sold it for the cost of parts I put in it just to keep it out of the scrap yard.

jack vines

 

[Maui]

I've found that restoring metal working equipment such as 9" or 10" lathes and vertical milling machines can be financially rewarding if you can pick them up for the right price. Replacement parts can usually be procured for a reasonable amount of money if the make of machine is a popular one, such as a South Bend lathe or a Bridgeport milling machine. The woodworking equipment is a different story.

Maui

 

[jywilli69]

Doing well by a well-built machine is its own reward. I've occasionally restored one and gifted it to a deserving person or sold it for the cost of parts I put in it just to keep it out of the scrap yard.

jack vines

That is awsome I have to say. Here is my 1st experience that I encountered this year. I picked up a Delta 1160 Circular Saw, which had the stand and a Craftsman Motor. I gave $25 for it. I was visiting with the guy, and it turns out he was a member of OWWM. He said he wasn't thinking and he decided the next time I was up, I could just have a Late 30's Craftsman Table Saw. Well with that and the Delta Combo I picked up free, I decided to give back to someone else who was wanting to start wood working. I had a 1949 Craftsman Scroll Saw and a 1952 Craftsman Band Saw for sale. A guy emailed me and said he was looking for a Band saw, so he and his son's could do some wood working. His boys wants to learn how to work with wood. I sold him the Band Saw for $25 and gifted the following tools.

!949 Craftsman Scroll Saw
Craftsman Lathe
Craftsman Belt/Disc Sander
Craftsman Router
1952 Craftsman 8" Table Saw
Sears Roebuck Every Ready Pump Motor

I told him he would have to make some repairs and get motors when he could, then him and his boys would have a good start of a small work shop. The guy who gave me the Delta Combo threw in the Sander, lathe, and router. They were from the 90's, but they were free to me. The man emailed me later because his son's helped him all day in the garage setting thing up and he was a very proud PAPA. He will have a lot of great memories to come with his sons. I can honestly say, I felt good after helping him out. When I get a tool, I appreciate what I find. Sure beats spending buying tons of tools that are foreign made. Wife and I are thinking about moving back home closer to family, so my tools will have to do, till be get back on track. I will restore what I have and continue once we get re-established back home. I am Medically Retired, so the old tools will give me plenty to do and yes enjoyment.

 

[Dave455]

Refurbed quite a few machines over the years too!

Here in the U.K. there are big differences in the prices for functioning, as opposed to non functioning, machines. If I can get a non working one, fix it, and sell it as a runner, then that's usually worth the trouble!

Any other reconditioning and you get back the money you paid out, and something for labour, but not a lot more, so I don't bother now. This especially applies to repainting, which I only do if I'm keeping the machine!

One of the factors that has changed things here is the demand from China. Not that many years back you could pick up decent, but old and scruffy, British made machines for not much money. A bit of re grinding and a coat of enamel could add a four figure sum to the right machine! Now, even the old scruffy machines have a much higher residual value!

 

[bubinga]

I like doing it too.
and for me, the cheaper I can put it together, (properly of course) The more fun I have.

 

[Roberts210]

I've never bought a machine to fix and flip, although I've rescued a few tools that I restored and sold later. That said I've sure bought a lot of beat-to-**** machinery and restored it for my own use.

Last one was this--I needed a tile wet saw, and good ones are selling for $300 to $500. I found a SuperiorBilt wet saw, badly abused, on the local CL and got it for $80. I rebuilt the elec. motor, put new bearings in the arbor and now I need to plug the leaks in the irrigating part. But it's a great saw now.

 

[larry_g]

I have been on both sides of this and find that for me its better to buy a good machine that I know is within skills to fix. Broken castings are not for me. Worn bushings and bearings, shafts and the sort are ok as I can make those. I have made step pulleys and banjo brackets for a lathe, but prefer not to. So each machine is evaluated for completeness by me and the necessary repairs.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Bob-B]

I used to buy, repair/refurbish and flip used small metalworking machinery for years. It funded my shop. I stopped about 5-10 years ago. I learned this from my father, who did it back in the 1960's. Long Island has become a tough market to resell in, too many sellers, too few buyers. I know some guys who still buy here, but actually sell it off the island, mostly in Pa.

Years ago, a co-worker and I sold a reconditioned, fully tooled, 10" Logan lathe to a guy from Cape Cod. He came across the sound on the ferry to avoid the city. The last machine I sold was a #6 Van Norman mill to a guy from somewhere in the mid-west. All he talked about while loading up was the traffic thru the city, the tolls, and the price of gas.

I still repair machinery for others, but today, I only buy and flip parts and accessories that can be easily shipped.

 

[Packard V8]

Long Island has become a tough market to resell in, too many sellers, too few buyers.

Same everywhere. The old guys who got their hands dirty making things on machines are dying off and the younger guys mostly only use their thumbs and nothing dirtier than a smartphone.

jack vines

 

[Bob-B]

Jack,

Young guys (my 23 year old mechanical engineer son) use 3d printing, CNC, and software, instead of my 60 year South Bend, Bridgeport, and pencils/T-squares....

Hell, my father laughed when he once said that I may have learned the trade back in 1972 on the same manual machines he once ran back in 1939.

Not a complaint mind you, merely an observation.

Ironically, Jr. still uses my and his tool-maker grandfather's hand and precision tools.

 

[Roberts210]

........The old guys who got their hands dirty making things on machines are dying off and the younger guys mostly only use their thumbs and nothing dirtier than a smartphone.

jack vines

Well said Jack!!

 

[87quest]

Just under thirty and would love to learn. Just with deployments and moves it's hard to get larger machinery and space in rentals. But who knows, I remember lots of time before smart phones, but they are so convenient.

quest

 

[Roberts210]

Wanting to learn is what it takes to learn. Thank goodness there are young guys like you Quest, who want to learn. Are you Army?

 

[87quest]

Yep. Artillery. About five years in, won't be doing twenty, but don't regret it. And true, desire to learn is hard to come by, but I haven't found too many people interested in teaching or showing. Dabble in woodworking, maintain and 'update' three cars, and trying to teach myself to weld (have flux/mig Lincoln but haven't done any mig)

Currently there is a radial arm saw on cl local, but I have no space for it, regardless of desire.

Quest

edit to fix phone typing.

 

[Packard V8]

Yep. Artillery. About five years in, won't be doing twenty, but don't regret it.

The first five are the hardest, the next fifteen are cake. Talk to all the guys you know who've gotten out recently. There are worse places to be.

Do most large bases still have a wood shop and a garage/hobby shop?

jack vines

 

[555]

Timely post. I found an old scroll saw on craigslist today. Has a Dunlop motor and a nice stand. It's very rusty and would take a lot of work. It will also take up a lot of space. I can get a nice newer unit for $15 more. I highly doubt I can clean this one up and get it operating for $15. But I'm not desperate for a scroll saw and it boils down to the enjoyment and satisfaction of making something useful. So time and money shouldn't be a factor.

 

[87quest]

Jack,

More or less. Most have an auto shop, though not overnight and the safety classes required are only offered during work hours. Haha. Wood shop I saw at Riley. An unfortunate almost forty minute drive from my house to take advantage of the nice finishing room. Love taking advantage of opportunities, but it's inconvenient if you don't live on base.

If anyone is in central Florida, UCF has a machine and CNC lab that you can go and use with some professional help in there just waiting to help.

quest

 

[Roberts210]

I spent a couple of years on an all-expenses paid vacation paid by my Uncle Sam in 1970-71---U.S. Army Sgt. It gets better as you get into it.