PB Swiss or Hazet Allen/Hex Key Sockets?

[redge]

Hi,

I need to buy some 3/8" drive Allen/Hex Key sockets for use principally with a 3/8" drive torque wrench (Warren & Brown 321500) and occasionally with a 3/8" drive ratchet (Snap-On).

I had planned to get Hazet Allen/Hex Key sockets (I'm about to purchase a number of Hazet tools), but am considering PB Swiss's V10.210 line because I have, and like, a number of their Phillips screwdrivers (8190 line) and cross-handle Allen/Hex Keys (207 line).

Can anyone comment on the quality of the PB Swiss sockets in general and, if anyone is in a position to compare, vis a vis Hazet's?

Thanks

 

[M6erfan]

I was just looking at the Bondhus socket bits, you may want to add those to your list to consider...

https://www.amazon.com/Bondhus-30845-Socket-Sockets-Piece/dp/B00QGSD1LA/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1473802593&sr=8-12&keywords=bondhus+bits+socket

Both PB and Hazet are somewhat expensive compared to others here in the U.S. What's your location?

 

[redge]

Hi M6erfan,

I've arranged to purchase the Hazet tools in Germany ex-VAT. PB Swiss would be sourced from either Tool Lady in Washington State or Count On Tools in Georgia; as you suggest, not the cheapest sources, but I do like the PB Swiss screwdrivers and cross-handle hex keys quite a lot.

 

[T45]

There is very litte info on those PB sockets. The Hazets are a safe bet. So are snap on Gold bits. PB should be cheaper if buying them new from the factory.

I think they are basically a toss up in quality, none of them are as good as the PB swiss L-shaped hex-stock or 1/4 bits from what I understand.

The Hazet and the Snappy you can replace, the snappy have real/warranty lifetime if you buy new. But the New price is so high its double or treble the Hazet on sale. So pick your poison.

Lastly, consider the bit length you want. they are not always the same and sometimes the sizes are better or worse for your application.

 

[bob15]

If you break a PB, how do you replace it? And if you need it ASAP, then what?

the Hazet bits i believe are stepped. there again, if you break it, you're in trouble.

Buy a bit set that can be made by cutting "L" keys into straight bits. Skip the reduced/stepped bits like you are looking at. they aren't worth it.

 

[M6erfan]

Ok, well, I don't have any PB Swiss bit sockets and only one Hazet 17mm hex socket. The Hazet is typical overbuilt beast that will probably survive a nuclear strike. I like it a lot. The socket bits I do have are Wiha and I like those an aweful lot too.

 

[Strouty]

I just ordered a lot of the bondhus pro hold bits. They can be bought with or without a socket. I bought them without so I can use any drive size I want. They are lifetime warranty and made in the USA.

 

[redge]

There is very litte info on those PB sockets.

Yes, that's why I've asked the question.

Lastly, consider the bit length you want.

Yes, good point, and one I'm considering.

 

[M6erfan]

I just ordered a lot of the bondhus pro hold bits. They can be bought with or without a socket. I bought them without so I can use any drive size I want. They are lifetime warranty and made in the USA.

Me too Strouty, just ordered the pro hold metric set with case (no sockets). I like the fact that I can choose the drive size

 

[walrus]

I just ordered a lot of the bondhus pro hold bits. They can be bought with or without a socket. I bought them without so I can use any drive size I want. They are lifetime warranty and made in the USA.

I have these also.

 

[Dave455]

I have both!

In my opinion you have picked the top two manufacturers out there!

They are both tough, really tough, and I doubt you will have problems with either!

Generally, if PB make a tool, it's the best out there. That applies to screwdrivers, screwdriver bits, allen keys, punches, the lot! How do I know, well, I've spent a good number of years doing repetitive assembly tasks, and I know how well the PB stuff lasts!

PB ball hex bits will set 100's of screws in a situation where Wera's will snap after 15! PB Punches will still be punching pins long after others have had to be reground, and my 25 year old PB drivers are still in daily use and still unmarked!

Now, I know at this point someone will say something like "Yamakhazi brand hex keys take .023 pound inches more torque in 17/64 size according to Yamakhazi User magazine! WHO GIVES A F**K! If you're an average user, not straining his tools to breaking point, the PB outlast the rest

I don't have many of the 3/8 drive bits (most of mine are 1/4 drive) and those I do have live in the road bag I used in a previous life! I can only say that I didn't break one in about 8 to 10 years of on site servicing, and I believe them to be as good as any other PB tool!

The downside with PB is that they offer a very limited range of these. If what they offer is what you need, then fine, but if you need a greater range of sizes, or inch sizes, or half inch drive, you will have to look elsewhere!

Hazet, by contrast, make about the biggest range of these things out there! In half inch drive they even offer a choice of a one piece design (some of which I own and seem to be mega tough) or a two piece design (which are mega tough as well). In 3/8 drive they offer metric and inch sizes (and torx, and spline etc) and two different lengths!

I started using the Hazet when I twisted a Stahlwille two piece torx, but found out they wouldn't supply the inserts separately, which make the two piece design pointless I reckon! I have no complaints. I reckon they are as tough as they get!

Which should you get? To be honest, it depends what you do! If it's cleanish light engineering, assembly work, or electromechanical, then I'd go with the PB. That's the environment they were designed for. I'd buy the rest of the catalogue too.

If it's general automotive work, I'd probably get the Hazet. They're not flashy (though the current gold coating looks good and wears even better) but they'll work and work, and you can add to them as and when you need to!

I'll add some pics if I get time!

 

[M6erfan]

Also agree with Dave455, PB for 'clean' work, Hazet for Auto/Industrial

 

[redge]

Hi Dave455,

I'm really grateful for your generously detailed response. It tells me everything that I need to know to make a decision.

I got a kick out of your comment about the breadth of the Hazet range. I found that I had to go through their catalogue methodically (not a criticism!) to figure out what's what.

I'll be going with PB Swiss for hex key sockets (they offer the sizes that I need) and Hazet for the "regular" hex sockets and combination wrenches that I need.

Your response was so helpful.

Thank you.

 

[Strouty]

Me too Strouty, just ordered the pro hold metric set with case (no sockets). I like the fact that I can choose the drive size

I have these also.

I am looking forward to getting mine, but I will be out of town when they arrive, so I will have to wait a while.

 

[Olafur]

Actually there is a way to test them and it has been done by the Japanese magazine (tool store) "Factory Gear"

The table near the top in the picture is pretty much self explanatory regarding the results.
The ultimate torque displayed in the test is as follows:
Nepros (Japan) 55,5Nm
Koken Zeal (Japan) 50,8Nm
Koken (Japan) 50,8Nm
Snap On (USA) 47,6Nm
Deen (Japan?-Taiwan) 47,3Nm
PB Sviss (Sviss) 42,8Nm
Hazet (Germany) 38,7Nm
KTC (Japan) 37,7Nm

 

[redge]

Actually there is a way to test them and it has been done by the Japanese magazine (tool store) "Factory Gear"

The table near the top in the picture is pretty much self explanatory regarding the results.
The ultimate torque displayed in the test is as follows:
Nepros (Japan) 55,5Nm
Koken Zeal (Japan) 50,8Nm
Koken (Japan) 50,8Nm
Snap On (USA) 47,6Nm
Deen (Japan?-Taiwan) 47,3Nm
PB Sviss (Sviss) 42,8Nm
Hazet (Germany) 38,7Nm
KTC (Japan) 37,7Nm

Hi Olafur,

Very interesting that the top three brands in this test are all Japanese, with an out-of-medal finish for Snap-On followed by another Japanese brand. Apparently, of the top five brands, four of them are Japanese.

Am I right that Factory Gear is a Japanese retailer of tools, with about 13 stores, and that it is the owner, publisher and editor of this publication and pays the people who work on it?

Is this publication, as an internet search would seem to suggest, a Factory Gear sales publication, published once a year (according to some sources, their annual sales catalogue), which would suggest that calling it a magazine would be to use the term rather loosely?

 

[Olafur]

Yes Factory Gear is Japanese retailer. I actually don't know much about their publications.

A respected member here on G.J posted several tests from this magazine (or whatever it is) Needless to say I don't know about accurate or fair these tests are.

However, since Factory Gear sells most, if not all of these brands they are testing it's not clear why they would cheat on the results in a Japanese magazine obviously intended for the local market. That doesn't quite make sense to me. And indeed the Japanese brands do not always score so well. Snap On for example excelled in their ratchet tests.

 

[redge]

Yes Factory Gear is Japanese retailer. I actually don't know much about their publications.

A respected member here on G.J posted several tests from this magazine (or whatever it is) Needless to say I don't know about accurate or fair these tests are.

However, since Factory Gear sells most, if not all of these brands they are testing it's not clear why they would cheat on the results in a Japanese magazine obviously intended for the local market. That doesn't quite make sense to me. And indeed the Japanese brands do not always score so well. Snap On for example excelled in their ratchet tests.

You can't think of a reason why a Japanese retailer, with 12 stores in Japan, would favour Japanese manufacturers, to the point where it says that four of the five best brands are Japanese, in its efforts to sell to Japanese consumers.

OK

Re your comment "I actually don't know much about their publications." It doesn't take much to figure out the purpose of Factory Gear's publications. They are sales tools. In this case, apparently part of an annual sales catalogue. it is certainly not a magazine, at least as that term is normally understood.

In my respectful view, if people are posting Factory Gear sales literature on this site as evidence of quality, it is unfortunate.

 

[Olafur]

You can't think of a reason why a Japanese retailer, with 12 stores in Japan, would favour Japanese manufacturers, to the point where it says that four of the five best brands are Japanese, in its efforts to sell to Japanese consumers.

OK

I don't pretend to know anything about the Japanese tool market.

But faking test results to push Japanese brands seem counter productive since Factory Gear stores stock plenty of Snap On, Hazet, PB Swiss, Wera, Knipex and Bahco. On top of that they have their own tool brand "Deen" that is primarily made in Taiwan as far as I know.

And no, this is not the general picture appearing from the tests either. I suspect the purpose of the tests might rather be to show the performance of their own "Deen" compared to some of the best.

Lastly it is no surprise to me some Japanese tool brands are among the best - for example Koken - I have been using for over 30 years.

 

[Olafur]

It doesn't take much to figure out the purpose of Factory Gear's publications. They are sales tools. In this case, apparently part of an annual sales catalogue. it is certainly not a magazine, at least as that term is normally understood.

In my respectful view, if people are posting Factory Gear sales literature on this site as evidence of quality, it is unfortunate.

And I assume you have taken the time to view all the test results carefully before reaching this conclusion?

 

[redge]

But faking test results to push Japanese brands seem counter productive since Factory Gear stores stock plenty of Snap On, Hazet, PB Swiss, Wera, Knipex and Bahco.

I can think of two reasons, right off the top of my head.

The margins are better on Japanese product (and Asian product generally) than product made in, and imported from, Europe and the U.S.

The second reason? How many times have you seen posts in this essentially American forum - there is at least one in this very thread - that recommend one brand over another because "it's made in America".

I suspect the purpose of the tests might rather be to show the performance of their own "Deen" compared to some of the best.

Bingo!

Isn't it interesting that even Factory Gear's house brand, presumably "value-priced", is better than Hazet and PB Swiss.

Look, if you want to take seriously Factory Gear sales literature, and the bumpf in that literature that is allegedly based on "objective tests" that Factory Gear pays for and controls, go ahead.

 

[Olafur]

Margins on Snap On ratchets and combination wrenches seem to be very good for Factory Gear, and also on Wera and PB hex keys.

But go right ahead and ignore these test results as well. After all you didn't ask for help regarding tool decisions - or did you?

 

[redge]

After all you didn't ask for help regarding tool decisions - did you?

I did indeed ask for help. And I got it. From someone who has first-hand knowledge of the tools that I'm considering.

That said, I do appreciate your posts, even if you have no knowledge of the Hazet and PB Swiss tools in question, apart from what you've inferred from a table in a publication that you say you don't know anything about, and presumably can't read, and that turns out to be sales literature from a Japanese chain store operation.

One reason that I appreciate your posts is that the next time I come across assertions based on a Factory Gear "test", I'll know straight away that it's rubbish instead of wasting time on the internet finding that out.

 

[T45]

Ya'll need to take stuff with a grain of salt.

- hex bits ultimate strength is nearly meaningless
- hardness (resistance to distortion)
- precision tolerances (resistance to sloppy fit)
- batch quality (relavance to the tested sample to your purchase)

etc all matter much more.

The PB shatters before others, because its 10% harder than the other bits. But some tradeoffs are made because the bit may fit better and distorts less and nobody is putting 42nm on a 5mm hex key with any regularity, and if they are they should be using something that is replaceble bit style like snap on etc.

Also, in the USA non of that japanese stuff is cost effective to warranty unless they send you product without having to mail in the part. So snap on is probably a better bet because you will get a new bit serviced much easier. even if its not the absolute best at any test in practice it works out better for most people, etc.

 

[walrus]

I have both!

In my opinion you have picked the top two manufacturers out there!

They are both tough, really tough, and I doubt you will have problems with either!

Generally, if PB make a tool, it's the best out there. That applies to screwdrivers, screwdriver bits, allen keys, punches, the lot! How do I know, well, I've spent a good number of years doing repetitive assembly tasks, and I know how well the PB stuff lasts!

PB ball hex bits will set 100's of screws in a situation where Wera's will snap after 15! PB Punches will still be punching pins long after others have had to be reground, and my 25 year old PB drivers are still in daily use and still unmarked!

Now, I know at this point someone will say something like "Yamakhazi brand hex keys take .023 pound inches more torque in 17/64 size according to Yamakhazi User magazine! WHO GIVES A F**K! If you're an average user, not straining his tools to breaking point, the PB outlast the rest

I don't have many of the 3/8 drive bits (most of mine are 1/4 drive) and those I do have live in the road bag I used in a previous life! I can only say that I didn't break one in about 8 to 10 years of on site servicing, and I believe them to be as good as any other PB tool!

The downside with PB is that they offer a very limited range of these. If what they offer is what you need, then fine, but if you need a greater range of sizes, or inch sizes, or half inch drive, you will have to look elsewhere!

Hazet, by contrast, make about the biggest range of these things out there! In half inch drive they even offer a choice of a one piece design (some of which I own and seem to be mega tough) or a two piece design (which are mega tough as well). In 3/8 drive they offer metric and inch sizes (and torx, and spline etc) and two different lengths!

I started using the Hazet when I twisted a Stahlwille two piece torx, but found out they wouldn't supply the inserts separately, which make the two piece design pointless I reckon! I have no complaints. I reckon they are as tough as they get!

Which should you get? To be honest, it depends what you do! If it's cleanish light engineering, assembly work, or electromechanical, then I'd go with the PB. That's the environment they were designed for. I'd buy the rest of the catalogue too.

If it's general automotive work, I'd probably get the Hazet. They're not flashy (though the current gold coating looks good and wears even better) but they'll work and work, and you can add to them as and when you need to!

I'll add some pics if I get time!

I broke pb bits doing electrical work. The fit and finish is great but in my experience pb bits ****. I also bought pick set from pb, they didn't take it either. I would never buy bits from them again

 

[lazer50]

The man asked if anyone has an opinion from experience on 2 brands.if he asked what i thought was best i would chime in but since i dont use those brands i didn't.

 

[Superbec]

I love PBswiss, I like Hazet ... I would buy what's easier to get and not stupid expensive.

Sorry I don't have first hand exp with the exact tools under question

 

[Olafur]

Ya'll need to take stuff with a grain of salt.

- hex bits ultimate strength is nearly meaningless
- hardness (resistance to distortion)
- precision tolerances (resistance to sloppy fit)
- batch quality (relavance to the tested sample to your purchase)

etc all matter much more.

The PB shatters before others, because its 10% harder than the other bits. But some tradeoffs are made because the bit may fit better and distorts less and nobody is putting 42nm on a 5mm hex key with any regularity, and if they are they should be using something that is replaceble bit style like snap on etc.

Also, in the USA non of that japanese stuff is cost effective to warranty unless they send you product without having to mail in the part. So snap on is probably a better bet because you will get a new bit serviced much easier. even if its not the absolute best at any test in practice it works out better for most people, etc.

Hex bit ultimate strength is not meaningless. Far from it. Both in my line of work and hobbies the ultimate strength of bits is relevant - since sometimes we have to use it. On top of that, higher ultimate strength spells higher fatigue limit for steel in general meaning - it can take more high load cycles.

According to the test results posted (should you choose to believe them) PB's HRC is only marginally higher than for example Koken, (not 10% higher!?) but with considerably lower ultimate strength.

The real problem with this test is they only tested one item of each hence leaving wide margin for error. But since tests are few and far between - I guess this is as good as it gets.

 

[redge]

The real problem with this test is they only tested one item of each hence leaving wide margin for error. But since tests are few and far between - I guess this is as good as it gets.

Actually, the real problem is that you haven't provided us with the text of this article in English. If you can, great. If not, what do you know about this "test", for a fact, as distinct from what you infer from the little box in the image that you posted?

Of course, we're talking about a publication that you first said is a "magazine", then said is some kind of publication that you don't know anything about, and that now appears to be a Japanese chain store retailer's annual sales catalogue.

Which catalogue says, no doubt by coincidence, that of the products under "test", four of the five "best" are made in Japan or in Taiwan (the latter for the chain store retailer as its "house brand"), with European brands Hazet and PB Swiss bringing up the rear.

 

[Olafur]

Actually, the real problem is that you haven't provided us with the text of this article in English. If you can, great. If not, what do you know about this "test", for a fact, as distinct from what you infer from the little box in the image that you posted?

Of course, we're talking about a publication that you first said is a "magazine", then said is some kind of publication that you don't know anything about, and that now appears to be a Japanese chain store retailer's annual sales catalogue. Which by coincidence says that of the products in question, four of the five "best" are Japanese, including the retailer's own "house brand", with European brands Hazet and PB Swiss bringing up the rear.

I don't mind your personal attacks. You are out of ammo trying to tear down the Factory Gear test results.

 

[R_einan]

Might check Proto too. They are much less money than snap-on, and just as good IMO.

 

[redge]

I don't mind your personal attacks. You are out of ammo trying to tear down the Factory Gear test results.

Nothing personal at all.

I just figure that it would be helpful, if you want us to pay attention to this article, if you could tell us what it says, apart from what you infer from the little box in the image that you posted.

I gather, from your response, that you not only didn't know that the article comes from a sales catalogue, but that you can't even read it.

OK

 

[redge]

Might check Proto too. They are much less money than snap-on, and just as good IMO.

Thanks. As the title suggests, I'm considering Hazet and PB Swiss. Proto and Snap-On don't enter into it.

Thanks to some particularly helpful posts, by Dave455 and T45, I've made a decision.

Cheers

 

[superautobacs]

Redge,

If you want to entertain yourself with more propaganda, please take a look at this thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306388&showall=1




I have a mix of PB Swiss sockets, and I have used my shop's Hazet bit sockets as well. If I was given a chance to choose between the two, I would opt for the Hazets.

Here's my PB Swiss in-hex sockets 1/4 drive (4,5,6mm) and 3/8 drive (7,8mm):



I have good eyesight, but the size markings are way too small (no stamping; just laser inscribing)






The material that gets displaced from the cold press is left behind (typical of what vintage sockets often looked like). These are the 1/4 drive ones:





And the 3/8 drive:





I doubt that you'll find these unless you get some NOS ones, but notice that two of my 1/4 drive sockets each have one thru-hole to receive the drive tool's retention ball. The other one is a current one with what you'd expect from all sockets today (grooves machined on all four sides):




I find the tolerances for the female square to be looser than I would prefer, but that's just a peeve of mine. The drive end is fault less and the wear characteristics appear good.

 

[redge]

Thanks superaubacs,

I assumed that Olafur was off on a frolic of his own, until I read your link and discovered that both of you, apparently as a tag team, are pedalling Factory Gear "tests" without either knowing, or disclosing, what Factory Gear is and what its so-called "magazine" is, and without offering an English translation of the articles that you quote.

When can we expect to see an English version of the article that Olafur used earlier in this thread?

Looking forward to it.

P.S. When first questioned about this, Olafur said "A respected member here on G.J posted several tests from this magazine (or whatever it is) Needless to say I don't know about accurate or fair these tests are."

From your link, it's pretty clear that Olafur is being modest in deflecting this off on a "respected member" and is failing to credit his own salesmanship. In any event, would it be fair to assume that you are the anonymous (now not anonymous) "respected member"?

 

[M6erfan]

^^^Dude, pull the stick out of your ***

 

[redge]

^^^Dude, pull the stick out of your ***

These guys have been using Factory Gear sales literature to make assertions on this forum about tools for a long time.

Given the popularity of this forum, I want people who do a Google search to know what Factory Gear is, that these "tests" come from Factory Gear's sales catalogue, and that the people making claims based on this sales literature can't even read it.

What's equally disturbing is that Olafur and Superatobacs don't acknowledge that the source of these "tests/articles" is a chain retailer, and that Olafur claims that he doesn't even know what the publication is that he is pushing.

Cheers

P.S. Superautobacs lives in Vancouver. My brother, who also lives there, just told me that Superautobacs should be able to come up with an English translation of the article in question in short order. Looking forward to it.

 

[redge]

Meanwhile, DT45 said something rather pertinent:

...nobody is putting 42nm on a 5mm hex key with any regularity...

For my application, the torque for M6 fasteners (the ones that take a 5mm hex key) tops out at 10Nm.

Which is normal.

This gives me very little patience for people who want to raise the rooftops with claims that some other socket is better because my 5mm hex key socket will fail at 40Nm and some other will fail at 41Nm.

Meanwhile, for a 5mm hex key socket, I'm at 10Nm.

This is the fundamental reason why the Japan retailer Factory Gear, and its acolytes on this forum, Olafur and Superatobacs and perhaps others, are talking rubbish.

 

[Superbec]

Meanwhile, DT45 said something rather pertinent:



For my application, the torque for M6 fasteners (the ones that take a 5mm hex key) tops out at 10Nm.

Which is normal.

This gives me very little patience for people who want to raise the rooftops with claims that some other socket is better because my 5mm hex key socket will fail at 40Nm and some other will fail at 41Nm.

Meanwhile, for a 5mm hex key socket, I'm at 10Nm.

This is the fundamental reason why the Japan retailer Factory Gear, and its acolytes on this forum, Olafur and Superatobacs and perhaps others, are talking rubbish.

actually it's not ,

tightening torque may be 10nm for one bolt but loosening required torque may be 2-3x or more .

I'm not sure how much a low grade M6 bolt can handle but I can go in the shop and test a few

 

[T45]

Like was said upthread, if you are working on clean hardware you should be focused on having good tolerances and correct hardness. The design issues are pretty trivial and catastrophic failure is remote. Catastrophic failure is a sign the engineers mis-spec'd the fasteners, not that you have a bad allen/hex key. PB swiss tools will be fine for these kinds of uses and may be preferred. But alot of it is ergonomics and feel and not messing up the hardware you are using. Its not some kind of test of destructive force. So trading some hardness (which helps feel) for brittleness is probably tolerable.

For those of you are working on "special situations stuff", like rusty brake caliper bolts or what not, you should probably be using Snap-on, for the ability to replace units easily under warranty. Hazet is probably a good bet here as well as they tend to fit well and not fail prematurely. These tools are likely tougher and less likely to snap, but at the expese of being slightly softer, which means they will tend to surface wear sooner and will need replaceing/upgrading sooner.

These are legit tradeoffs for certain people and folks need to pick tools to suit their work and lifestyle etc.

Also just to add I don't have any issue with the top gear tests as published, I am sure the tests are OK. The issue is more about how to use the data they provide and interpretation. The latter issue can be skewed by marketing and or by folks just maybe looking at the test in an over-simplistic manner. But its not really aimed at the people who link to the test, who are at fault. I've linked to these tests before just because they have information and are useful basis for starting a discussion. But again, with this particular too and some others, the key variables are often times fitment and ergonomics, and most of these tests tend to measure things that are only tangentially related to the most critical variables. But they do show in some ways the limits and tradeoffs of various designs, and they also show when tools are complete ****.