PE vs PVC for water supply from well.

[Simplytodd]

I am getting ready to run the water line from my well to my new shop. The distance from the pressure tank at the well head to the shop is a run of 260'. For the most part it is a fairly straight shot with only a long arc over the length of the run. I have access to a backhoe so it will be buried 2'-3' underground.

Special considerations for my situation are about 150' of the run is along a fence line that will most likely have some serious root growth from both hard and softwood trees as well as some bamboo.

At some point in the future I will be needing to tee-off of the line to the shop to supply the future house that will be built adding another 300'-350' of line.

I will be driving a tractor over the buried line that weighs 5000+lbs.

As I see it if I went with schedule 40 bell mouth pvc I will have 16+ fittings just for the run to the shop. Lots of possibilities for future leaks. If I went with 160 psi PE in a 300' roll I will only have three. Less opportunity for joint failure.


What's yall's thoughts on the matter. Thanks in advance

 

[ssdave]

Use NSF approved High Density PE pipe, the heavier the better. I'd use at least 200 psi. Use a single 300 foot roll, and use compression fittings with insert support sleeves at the ends, not barbed fittings. Make sure that the fitting size you get (IPS, CPS) is the same as the pipe material you buy. There's more than one size. HDPE is cheap insurance that you will never have a leak.

 

[joe_padavano]

They sell black 1" polyethylene pipe specifically for this purpose in rolls up to 1000 ft long at any home improvement or plumbing supply store. It's been used for decades. Why reinvent this?

 

[larry4406]

Continuous roll of PE as stated by others. All we use in new construction.

 

[Simplytodd]

Thanks for the info guys. I had never heard of PE till I started to research for my needs on pipe sizing. I'm not in the industry but I would say around here I have seen pvc used almost exclusively. Just wanted to get someone else's thoughts on it.

 

[ssdave]

Make sure you get HDPE. They sell identical looking pipe that is ldpe, and it's about half the price. You want to make sure it is NSF approved, potable water service HDPE. The difference in durability and longevity is about 10 fold. Same with good fittings. Expensive, but you won't be digging them up and repairing in 3 years either.

 

[Allenw]

They sell black 1" polyethylene pipe specifically for this purpose in rolls up to 1000 ft long at any home improvement or plumbing supply store. It's been used for decades. Why reinvent this?

because I'm sick and tired of patching the stuff, gophers. kinks from mishandling, split seams.

 

[btdobie]

It must be nice being able to bury water that shallow .

 

[southalabama]

Less joints less potential problems and quicker.

Easy decision

 

[Simplytodd]

Thanks for the info SSDAVE pricey stuff compared to the 20' joints of pvc but I'm trying to avoid the hassle of repairing later. I don't mind the upfront cost to do it right the first time.

 

[Simplytodd]

It must be nice being able to bury water that shallow .

Yeah hard freeze here tonight 22-27F. It's getting almost as much coverage on the local news as the shooting in Florida. It's even better not having to have some city engineer inspect my work.

 

[rburke65]

PE in one continuse roll....no joints. Maybe a hydrant near the location of future shop. This will obviously, let ya know where to dig for the tap in and, at 260' from he house, you will want a water feed down there. I'm about the same distance from my house and I use the hydrant to hose off the mower, tractor, UTV. It's a good idea.

 

[Firebrick43]

PVC work hardens and will eventually shatter. But it does much better with sharp rock in some localities. HDPE can last 50 plus years if there are no sharp stones against it not 4' digging gophers.

 

[toyotadriver]

For my well the well company ran 1 inch schedule 80 PVC underground. Seems fine but time will tell.

 

[John in OH]

All underground water piping at our power plants was always continuous run HDPE.

 

[59 wagon man]

use pvc ,less restriction internally, will be harder for roots to crush, jmho

 

[ssdave]

use pvc ,less restriction internally, will be harder for roots to crush, jmho

Glad you put jmho on that. It's exactly that, not factual at all. In fact, plain backasswards. It's easy to research it, I'm putting in one link that discusses PVC vs HDPE quite well, although in the context of golf course irrigation, not house water supply. The principles and conclusions are the same, though.

http://www.hydrogold.org/jgp/pdf/hb0082_20120105_hdpe_vs_pvc_pipe.pdf

The primary problem with HDPE is cost, particularly of fittings. They are expensive if done right. For a run without branches, HDPE wins every time in cost and features comparison, because the extra cost is not that great. If there's a lot of fittings, cost becomes much more of an issue, and PVC's cheap fittings become a real advantage; balancing out the HDPE advantages.

There is absolutely no question that HDPE wins in durability. And, because of the lack of fittings/joints, it has LESS internal friction/restriction, although on paper the HDPE is slightly rougher. In pipe networks, we calculate it as exactly the same friction coefficient, because the lack of fittings gives it a slight edge that balances out the extra roughness. Being able to make slight bends with it instead of angle fittings further lowers the friction losses. Crushing strength and abrasion resistance is where HDPE really shines. Roots and rocks and such, it will be there years after PVC has failed.

A lot of the misconceptions on HDPE comes from people that have seen cheap black plastic pipe that homeowners that are looking for the lowest price material have installed. That LDPE material crushes, splits, cracks, etc. The pipes look the same, but have entirely different characteristics. That's why I've been very particular in my recommendation to get 200 psi or greater NSF approved HDPE. Not, the cheap, homeowner grade black plastic pipe. Difference in cost on 1" is about from $.25 for LDPE to about $1 for HDPE a foot. Difference in value is between $0 and $1 per foot. The LDPE is absolutely worthless for anything other than a cheap and easily repaired temporary line.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

Great thread. Does the choice between HDPE and PCV influence how deep it need to be buried?

I'm thinking in Southern Indiana frost line here.

 

[Firebrick43]

Great thread. Does the choice between HDPE and PCV influence how deep it need to be buried?

I'm thinking in Southern Indiana frost line here.

Yes. I can be difficult to work with PVC in deep trenches if there are corners and such. Many times with hdpe you never have to enter the trench meaning it's safer. Make sure with hdpe you don't run it straight and tight but lay it in a lazy s to allow for thermal shrinkage.

I have two 300' hoses for watering horses in my pasture. They are 250 psi rated and been laying exposed and moved weekly for 5 years now. Drive over them with the tractor and horses walk on them withs no splits or damage yet. .62$ a foot at Menards here(special order for the 250psi).

 

[Radix2]

All municiple water lines are run with hdpe around here for many years. That's hundreds of thousands if not millions of homes. Never heard of any failing unless dug up.

 

[ssdave]

HDPE is very forgiving of freezing, as LONG AS THERE ARE NO FITTINGS in the frozen section. Fittings break with freezing. PVC is absolutely not resistant to freezing, it breaks. HDPE is also really forgiving of changes in grade in the trench. If you have rocks and such, or have to go up and down to match surface terrain, it flexes with that. You can also bend it around obstructions, don't have to install it straight. As noted before, you don't have to get down in the trench to place it. With PVC, you need to get the bottom absolutely flat and straight, so that the pipe is laid without stresses and deflections. Sand or fine gravel bedding is preferred. To do that effectively, the trench needs to be wide enough for you to stand in it and work. HDPE can be trenched in with a 4" wide trencher, and laid with minimal bedding or prep work. Just make sure that there's no rocks or abrupt changes in grade, and then backfill the first few inches with finer soil without rocks. For a homeowner, the savings in being able to rent a trencher, put it in themselves without having to get a backhoe to dig the trench (or spends days digging by hand) is a huge savings in effort and cost. You can buy a 4" wide trench shovel to clean out the trench; they're widely available from places that carry irrigation supplies for lawn sprinkler installation.

All that said, I'd still install HDPE below projected frost level. There's no reason to install a pipe where it can freeze if you have the ability to not do that. Plus extra depth helps with burrowing animals, driving over it, etc.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

HDPE is very forgiving of freezing, as LONG AS THERE ARE NO FITTINGS in the frozen section. Fittings break with freezing. PVC is absolutely not resistant to freezing, it breaks. HDPE is also really forgiving of changes in grade in the trench. If you have rocks and such, or have to go up and down to match surface terrain, it flexes with that. You can also bend it around obstructions, don't have to install it straight. As noted before, you don't have to get down in the trench to place it. With PVC, you need to get the bottom absolutely flat and straight, so that the pipe is laid without stresses and deflections. Sand or fine gravel bedding is preferred. To do that effectively, the trench needs to be wide enough for you to stand in it and work. HDPE can be trenched in with a 4" wide trencher, and laid with minimal bedding or prep work. Just make sure that there's no rocks or abrupt changes in grade, and then backfill the first few inches with finer soil without rocks. For a homeowner, the savings in being able to rent a trencher, put it in themselves without having to get a backhoe to dig the trench (or spends days digging by hand) is a huge savings in effort and cost. You can buy a 4" wide trench shovel to clean out the trench; they're widely available from places that carry irrigation supplies for lawn sprinkler installation.

All that said, I'd still install HDPE below projected frost level. There's no reason to install a pipe where it can freeze if you have the ability to not do that. Plus extra depth helps with burrowing animals, driving over it, etc.

Great info, thank you!

 

[Simplytodd]

No rocks here just gray exspansive clay. Lots of good info I didn't think about. HDPE it is.