Permit Denied !!!!!

[slowtwitch]

In another post, I posted that I pulled the trigger and signed paper work for a new 30'x32' pole barn. Well, I received the "Permit Denied" letter from the township

They say that my accessory building can not exceed 25% of the principle building. Meaning, I can't build over 325 sq. ft. That's about the size I currently have.

Anyway, I filed an appeal today with the zoning board. The board wants to know my hardship for going bigger, i claimed the lack of storage. that I can't store my Skag mower and roto tiller and other lawn implements in the garage with the car parked in it. Everything has to be stored outside under tarps.

I'm hoping that the size of my lot will make a difference. The lot is 100'x 130'. The set backs for the new building would be 21' in the rear and 35' on both sides. With both the garage and house sq footage combined, there will still be a little better than 80% of open space to mow.

Now I just sit and wait......

 

[Bull]

Damn. Where are you located? Is the town pretty strict?

 

[slowtwitch]

Damn. Where are you located? Is the town pretty strict?

Bensalem, PA

 

[jay50]

time 2 move

 

[tdkkart]

Take them to court for discrimination. You are being discriminated against based on the size of your chosen home, 325sqft because you chose to a have a 1300sqft home, while your neighbor can have 750sqft if he chose to build a 3000sqft home.

Or, attach it to your house, then it would be part of your principle structure.

 

[Scout Driver]

Tell the zoning board that they can either look at your nice garage and uncluttered yard, or they can look at all your lawn equipment parked under a multi-color array of tarps.

Is there any way to apply for a variance from the regular zoning ordinance? Check into it. Also, what's your neighborhoods' opinion of your potential garage? Maybe get a petition going to present to the zoning board. I work as a zoning admin. for my county. Seeing someone that has support of their neighbors can go a long way towards making the impossible, possible.

Good luck to you and let us know how this issue turns out.

Scott

 

[slowtwitch]

Tell the zoning board that they can either look at your nice garage and uncluttered yard, or they can look at all your lawn equipment parked under a multi-color array of tarps.

Scott

I filed for a variance with the board. Here is one of the exhibits showing my tarp situation. Notice how the previous owner extended the garage...

 

[metal1313]

im dealing with the same issues, although i am only in the planning stages. i am dealing with set backs, and height issues. i have talked to my neighbors and no one has a problem, several have signed papers saying they would approve of the structure and design of the building. the rear set back isnt an issues, only need 6ft, but the side is an issue, i want to build 4ft from a block wall thats been in the yard for 50+years. the neighbor who owns it is actually my architect and has no issue there. i basicalyl want to push my existing garage back 80ft, and scale it up to 16x28.

th height issue comes from 10ft walls and a decent pitch on the roof(to match the old) that alone puts me over the height limit of 16ft or so, and i want a cuppola as well.

 

[gumbudah]

Thats a raw deal... Our ordinances say you can't build larger than 30% of your "back lot" which is from the back of the house to the back property line. When I told them I wanted to build 30x52 they crapped their pants and said I'd need to talk to the planning board. I talked to the planning board, and they said noo the rule is 30% you are clearly under that. But 25% of the square footage of the house *****. that's tiny. how can a guy get anything done in that small of a gruj, especially when the national "average" for new houses is somewhere between 2 and 3 stalls!!! even a normal 2 stall, 24x24 would be well over the 25% rule. Good choice in appealing. Might also do you some good to spearhead an effort to get that 25% changed to 100 or 150%!!!!
good luck

 

[slowtwitch]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope to make the next zoning board meeting, which would be in Oct. I just missed the Sept. meeting date. It seems like you always have to take 10 steps backward before you can move forward ...lol


pete

 

[kornjulio]

Eh, I have the same sized lot and the biggest outbuilding permitted is 12'X14'....

 

[PassnThru]

I'm hoping that the size of my lot will make a difference. The lot is 100'x 130'. The set backs for the new building would be 21' in the rear and 35' on both sides. With both the garage and house sq footage combined, there will still be a little better than 80% of open space to mow.

Now I just sit and wait......

So - you are putting it square in the middle of the yard????
Set backs here are 10'. Much more reasonable. My lot is 100 X 250 and my garage is 24 X 32. Not sure I would build bigger and lose more of my back yard. Of course, with kids you need more free space. Honestly, I wouldn't even build a pole barn that big if i had to put it square in the middle of the yard. I would be looking to move. That may not be an option for you - but really, think seriously about having that big of a building sitting in the middle of your back yard.

 

[bobadame]

This is the reason I moved 5 years ago. I've never regretted it.

 

[slowtwitch]

So - you are putting it square in the middle of the yard????

Not really, here's a plot plan. There is still a bunch of ground for the grand kids to play in. As for the setbacks, they are of my choosing. The township ok's 5'. I wanted more room behind the garage.

Moving is not an option, due to a great job.

 

[Motown 454]

I just went through that to get my variance. Mine will be 22x26 . The inspector said If It was free standing I wouldn't need a variance, but because it was attached I needed it. If I would have put 6" between the house and garage I would have been fine. I got my abutters to sign saying they were fine with the build. The neighborhood associasion had 32 people againnst and I still got it because of the abutters signed. Like Scott said it carries a lotr of weight in your favor.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A big part of getting a variance is doing your homework...do everything they ask for, get neighbor's signatures, provide clear and easy to read plans, explain clearly why you think you deserve the variance, when you appear before the variance board wear nice clothes and comb your hair and so on.

I had to get a variance for the height of my garage (it was higher than normal), and went to the board meeting I was surprised at how ill-prepared most of the other people were - they didn't have all the information they were asked to bring, they couldn't provide a compelling reason for the variance, and frankly some of them looked like they had just crawled out of a hole somewhere. They all got shot down, but my request was approved with little fanfare.

 

[Scout Driver]

Listen to Stuart in MN. He made some very good points.

Scott

 

[930dreamer]

I hope it works out for you. I lease a building outside the city limits just so I don't have to deal with the city zoning issues.

 

[Mike in Ohio]

Where I live the outbuilding cannot be more sqare footage than your house. When I built my house the permit fee was based on the square footage of the house. They included the unfinished basement and attached garage in the footage. When I went for the permit for my shop the basement and garage were not added in for those calculations. I asked the zoning guy about this and he couldn't explain it, just the way it is.

Good luck with appeal
Mike

 

[srmofo]

I went through that last year, did the variance thing.

The city manager was busy for the 2 months :rollseyes: before the meeting. I got the denial letter 2 days before the meeting. I didnt get a chance to talk to him and work out a compromise beforehand, but I showed up with new blueprints for a smaller size anyways. (they wanted 12 copies btw).

He was the only person sitting on that board that was familiar with Roberts rules and how the variance process even worked. He was also the only person that was able to decipher a blueprint (not hard,iknow).

Giving the fact that I was giving so little time to prepare, the fact that I wasnt giving any face time with the city manager, and the fact I was willing to compromise on the size it should have been tabled until the next meeting but those morons at city hall just declined it, even though i asked for a continuance.

Luckily I went back and checked the sqft of my home. The size for the tax figures were wrong. I gained about 200 sqft on my home just by double checking their math. Im also allowed 50% of my house.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

Man, I feel for ya. It's something how things can be so different in the same country. Here if I wanted to build another 40 x 50 I'd be doing it by the afternoon if I had the funds. So naturally me being where I am and all used to that kind of thing, I'd say hold up your middle finger and go from there. That's a bunch of ****!

 

[HemiRambler]

Don't ask me how I pulled it off (luck) but my garage is bigger than my house. I went the variance route.

I will say this - I went there loaded for BEAR. Meaning that I had ALL my ducks in a row - I was extremely organized - and had done my homework to the point of documenting every OVERSIZE garage in the city. I had drawings of the entire block with all additions to houses etc all labeled and highlighted. I had multiple copies - and a full set of construction drawings - I consulted a civil engineer friend of mine and took his advice to heart. BE PREPARED!!!!!! Walking in and looking like a schmuck - is the easiest reason to shoot you down. Still with all that went on I feel a certain amount of luck was involved. The zoning board of appeals was the first hurdle - surprisingly down hill from there!!! Good Luck!!!

 

[e-tek]

Just chiming in on the "I can't believe it" side. I really feel for ya man! We have some city rules, but nothing that strict. Ours can't be larger than the house and cover not more than 1/2 the lot. My lot is 75x150, so I got a 24x40 approved.

If I HAD to do what you do, I'd take my cues from HemiRambler!!

 

[cletus66]

Screw 'em and move. Buy enough land to do what you want. It can be tough, but if you put your mind to it, you can pull it off.

 

[Mattlt]

Do what Stuart suggests. Have all your ducks in a row when you go before the variance people.

And, I'm going to be brutally honest here: Put a coat of paint on the building you've already got. The way it looks now may sway the board's opinions. Make sure the grass is cut and the weeds/brush are taken care of as well.

 

[cheap bastard]

Do any neighbors in your immediate area have a larger garage. If they do, discrimination can be claimed for they have more enjoyment and use of their property than you do. I have achieved variances in the past with that reasoning even when neighbors objected to my plans.

 

[Rudyjr]

I needed two variances to build my current garage. I went around to all of my neighbors before the meeting with the plans for my proposed garage and they were all very supportive. At the meeting the only person against it was from the planning commission. After he gave his speech about the cons of allowing me to build it due to excessive rain runoff, and the fact that I could potentially run a business out of it I had my turn. I informed him I had the support of all of my neighbors (letters to back it up). And that he could explain to them why all of my stuff would be sitting outside in my driveway in plain view with blue tarps covering it up if they disallowed my building. The zoning board granted both of my requests one for setback and one for size.

 

[Strouty]

You will not win with the hardship route, you created the hardship yourself by owning the extra equipment. I know it sounds crappy, but hardships are for extreme circumstances. You will definitely need to go through the Variance process and as many have said, do your homework and have all your ducks in a row. Try and get support from your neighbors, get them to the meetings if possible. Just don't get mad at the ZBA (Zoning Board of Appeals) or you could end your fight before it begins. Some members will make your life hell. I build cellular towers for a living and we get permits for our own towers, it can take years to get those permits. Get a copy of the local zoning book, or go online and find it. You may want to sit in on a few meetings of the ZBA and see what goes on. Also there will usually be lawyers there that specialize in that type of situation. You may be able to get a consult with them. I have seen people bring in the lawyer they always used and unless they have experience, it will make you look foolish and a lot poorer. Just my 2cents.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

You seem well spoken. I would take the positive suggestions here and move forward. It does appear as if you are not really encroaching on anyone, as the diagram shows.
Point out that your intention is to improve your property and your neighborhood without encroaching. Tell the board and the building inspector that you want to do things the right way, and that any help or consideration they can give you will be very much appreciated.

 

[slowtwitch]

I just came back from passing out papers, as well as talking with all my neighbors, concerning the variance issue. In the packet I handed out, I included the plot plan and a photo of the proposed garage. I also stated the reasons for the variance and gave my phone numbers if they had any concerns. I wanted to let them know beforehand that they may be receiving a certified letter stating the hearing and the reason for it.

So far everyone has been very supportive and couldn't believe that I even needed a variance. Also, a few have even said they would appear in front of the zoning board, in support of my new garage

more to come....



pete

 

[Scout Driver]

You are going about this the right way, Pete. If the zoning board has sense at all, you should easily get your variance.

Scott

 

[Packard V8]

FWIW, ask around at the Planning Commission and find the builder/developer/attorney who handles a lot of requests/presentations. Pay him whatever he asks and you will get your variance. Yes, it *****. Yes, it is crooked. Yes, it's just the way any city works.

BTDT and it is just the way the system works. The city was paving the street behind my house and sent me a bill for $21,000. I decided while they were digging, I'd pay extra to have gas, water and sewer stubs as well as driveway curb cuts installed to each of the three lots which make up the back yard. That way, if I ever decided to sell the lots, the new street wouldn't have to be dug up. Basically, being responsible and doing eveyone a favor at my expense.

When I went down myself, I was told, "No way you can sub-divide." I found a local developer who was wired in. I promised him if I ever decided to sell, he could have first refusal on the lots. During his regular Monday morning rounds, he got the sub-division of the three lots done without questions.


jack vines

 

[RetroJim55]

I live in Abbottstown , pa . and we need 10' from the sides and rear property lines and can't built past our homes in the front for set backs . Other than that I had no problem with anything . I only have a 24' x 24' due to no more room due to the property lines . I am in a cul-da-sack and on the corner lot . I also have 2 cars under tarps next to the garage but the neighbors don't complain at all .

Jim

 

[Aberdale]

I chair the zoning board meetings for our local township. You have gotten some good advice so far, and it sounds like you are moving forward in the right direction by informing your neighbors and anyone else in the vacinity that may be affected or concerned about your project. If they know you will be doing a quality job, and it will make the view from their properties better, they will usually support it, and that is half the battle.

The other issue is justifying why you need a variance in the first place. Work on a positive description that makes your new building make sense to the zoning board when you present it. In your building layout, it looks like your new building will be replacing your old building. Is this true, or is it a 4 lean to's attached to the original structure? A new replacement building will be easier to sell than lean to's.

Our zoning guide is about 75 pages. It was written to provide guidance for about 80% of all new improvements to local properties, but we realize there will be exceptions, and that most of those exceptions are for good reasons. Of course, your zoning board may have a different agenda than ours. Our general goal is orderly expansion and improvements that don't negatively affect public safety, and don't detract, or negatively affect the value of adjacent properties.

Good luck on moving your project forward.

Dale

 

[aqr81]

Pete, I feel you are taking the right approach. It makes a huge difference when you have the support of others who will be supportive and on your side. The process takes time and is very frustrating. It appears that you are taking a balanced and sensible approach and I suspect it will work out for you.

I too have been battling the local issues before I can start work on a new garage/shop. Hopefully in the near future I will be able to open a thread on my journey. Be patient, go about it the right way and it will all work out for you. Best of luck to you Pete.

Larry

 

[sdowney717]

can you build 2 small buildings that would equal the size of the one?
that way each building would be under the size limit

 

[logical]

Many towns have no size restrictions on attached agrages...only on separate structures. Maybe if that is the case where you live you cound build it as an addded attached garage.

 

[srmofo]

And, I'm going to be brutally honest here: Put a coat of paint on the building you've already got.

Thats funny, thats what I did after they denied my variance.

I left it white on the end and painted all the trim in flamingo pink. I love the mis-tint shelf at lowes.

 

[stinkythings.com]

Just a thought here. With November elections just around the corner perhaps you could volunteer to do some political work and make your name known to the powers that be.

 

[bgott]

I'd really look at your codes, in some places you can get away with a lot if you are using a wall of an existing structure.