Permit Issue?

[mousebob]

I would like to hear other's experience with what I am concerned may become a complicated permitting issue. I have a friend who is going to apply for a building permit to have a garage built on his property.

However, the main house on his property may have never been correctly permitted. County records show that an initial building permit was pulled in the early 80s, but none of the necessary inspections took place and the permit expired. Despite this the house has been occupied for the last 40+ years without issue. It has power from the utility company. The correct square footage is listed with the county assessor's office. This house sits is on 10+ acres.

What should she expect if she tries to pull a permit to build a detached garage? Is this a nightmare/headache waiting to happen or has it been too long since the house was constructed to worry?

I would like to hear others thoughts, opinions, and experiences if you have ever been in a similar situation.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

I think too much depends on the particular AHJ for anyone here to offer relevant experience. When I built my new garage, the health department was concerned because they had no records of the septic system on my property- but they told me they didn’t have such records for many properties in the area.

About 30 years ago in our town, a guy built a new house on property he bought, without ever obtaining a building permit. It caught up to him when he tried to get electricity hooked up, and the POCO wouldn’t do it without the town’s building inspector’s blessing. The guy lived in the house for several years, with threats from the town of ordering the house demolished. It eventually got resolved, and he got his electricity. Details of agreements made and lawyers’ fees, etc. weere never made public.

 

[The Cobbler]

Well, whatever he chooses to do , the fact that there is an issue will never go away. I would rectify any issues now over waiting until he tries to sell it.

 

[Bucko]

Is she the original owner? If not it may be something to look at with her Title insurance company with and see if a record search was done. They may or may not be of assistance in resolving the issue. You pay for title insurance once when you buy the home and are supposed to be covered for things missed by the title company for the duration that you own your home. I don't know if permits are covered with title insurance but it can't hurt to try.

 

[ycgoat]

I have done a few projects here where I never got the final inspection, and did not have any issues pulling a permit for the next project. But my neighbor did that in the 80s then had a fire a few years ago and the county office gave him a lot of trouble; I do not know the details of what they made him do

 

[Toomanytools?]

I see you are in Washington , if said person is also WA. counties can be a pain for such things. If it is a detached garage and has no connection to current building it "may' not even come up. The septic or utilities might. If she bought the property and old permits never came up then it again may never be an issue. Once you start "the can of worms" looking into old permits then she most likely will need to apply for a retroactive building permit. The building will then need to meet current codes not building code from 1980's. I'm not totally sure on this but from what I have experienced that is the way it went.

 

[PoorUB]

I kind of doubt anything will happen. I don't believe most cities will verify that earlier permits were pulled or closed out.
Most cities will look at the existing property, make sure set backs and lot coverage is followed.

I wouldn't expect something from 40 years ago to get dug up, but you never know!

 

[DGersic]

I would like to hear other's experience with what I am concerned may become a complicated permitting issue. I have a friend who is going to apply for a building permit to have a garage built on his property.

However, the main house on his property may have never been correctly permitted. County records show that an initial building permit was pulled in the early 80s, but none of the necessary inspections took place and the permit expired. Despite this the house has been occupied for the last 40+ years without issue. It has power from the utility company. The correct square footage is listed with the county assessor's office. This house sits is on 10+ acres.

What should she expect if she tries to pull a permit to build a detached garage? Is this a nightmare/headache waiting to happen or has it been too long since the house was constructed to worry?

I would like to hear others thoughts, opinions, and experiences if you have ever been in a similar situation.

My parents house was built in the late 1960s. They’ve lived in it since ‘72. A couple years ago, dad went to get a permit to replace the concrete driveway that was cracked and sunken because they poured it over a few stray rocks and some dirt.

Office girl commented that it’ll be nice to finally have a driveway. That kicked off a rather puzzling conversation revealing that the builder had never applied for a permit for concrete, and their records indicated that the house had no driveway. Since it didn’t have one, he couldn’t apply for a permit to replace it.

It took a bit more discussion to get them to accept the idea that the house did indeed have a driveway. Also that dad hadn’t put the driveway in without a permit.

Never underestimate the power of bureaucracy.

 

[egdede]

A similar problem I have had was that the JX would issue these complex forms for inspectors to sign off on every F'n detail. The inspector shows up ans scrawls initials in one place or, worse, says 'I'll tell them at the office it's good' (maybe 'checking on something about *** before I close it'). Then later, even if the permit is closed the city can raise the craziest issues.

When they inspected 10 circuits I pulled to replace the single fused circuit that served the kitchen, they never checked the box re: the dish washer. 4 years later I'm at the counter about a foundation replacement and some clerk says 'they never closed your dishwasher permit'. That's what I F'n get for asking for a permit to add a GD dishwasher! (I wanted to do everything 'right' as I was a new homeowner.) I replied: WTF? He was there, he walked through, asked a couple of questions and left. He said I was 'good to go' before he left. The c;lerk shrugged. I live in fear they are going to come lock my dishwasher out : )

 

[brownbagg]

here, its pay your $200 and go build it. most times they dont even look up from the newspaper

 

[pcmeiners]

"What should she expect if she tries to pull a permit to build a detached garage?"

I had the same issue as you last month. My house had several "open tickets", as found via a title search company. With any unresolved issues, forget about getting a permit for new work, such as a garage build, and more than likely forget a buyer getting a mortgage for a house with the above issues. All my open tickets involved un-filed forms and an electrical inspection for completed work on my house 15 years ago; a contractor was supposed to take care of this, but as typical, he took off before finishing the work.

A couple un-filed forms was taken care of by an Architect for $300, and I lucked out with the inspection by the building department, completed 2 days after visiting the building department, with no added cost. Luckily the inspector was a nice guy, he was not looking to add to my financial or work load or pad the cities monetary fund; I was dreading the inspection for weeks beforehand.

Now if you have money the easy way to do this is get an expediter. For a hefty fee, they take care of all the paper work and arrange for inspections. In many cases it is worth the money, as dealing with building department bureaucracy can be daunting and time consuming.
Good luck

"I live in fear they are going to come lock my dishwasher out "

No they would NEVER do that, they would just pad lock your house doors, and use "DO NOT CROSS by order of the building department" yellow tape across the doors.

 

[Mikeske]

I live in Washington state also and I had got a permit for a new detached garage and the county only asked for a drawing of the home on the property, the well location, where the septic system is located on the drawing and noting where the proposed building was to be located. The drawing can be hand drawn. Nothing on the permit status of the home was mentioned in the instructions on the permit.

I would just pull the permit and if the county has a issue they will inform the home owner then it can be resolved at that time. I do not think the county will really care as the permit for the home was so old. I do know that if you used the county website to see what permits are that the majority of the old permits were sometimes scanned in and a lot of the permits were not. I do think that it is possible the expired permit was scanned but maybe a follow on permit was not scanned but are in paper records at the county.

 

[Trapps]

In my community non conforming homes built before codes were enacted are 'grandfathered' and do not require updates as is. As soon as a modification happens, then certain elements become subject to new/current codes.

In the OP's case, the garage, as a separate and new structure, will have to be compliant on all counts. As long as it meets all requirements and is not connected to the house (electrical? plumbing?) then the permit would be for the garage only. The home should be grandfathered and unless it's being modified, there should be no requirements there.

In my experience, developing a relationship with your building authority (Inspector) can be a huge benefit. Not because he/she will let things slide, but because you can have honest discussions about expectations.

 

[mousebob]

Thanks, everyone! I appreciate the input

 

[acer66]

In my community non conforming homes built before codes were enacted are 'grandfathered' and do not require updates as is. As soon as a modification happens, then certain elements become subject to new/current codes.


In my experience, developing a relationship with your building authority (Inspector) can be a huge benefit. Not because he/she will let things slide, but because you can have honest discussions about expectations.

Around here you get mostly grandfathered in with the caveat that had to up to code at one point.
When doing an addition the inspector looked at a deck which was build in a way that it would have never passed code so I had to add some reinforcement.

Spot on on having a good relationship with the inspector and the office.
Same inspector who faulted me for the deck is known to be a stickler but once he saw that I wanted to do things right he was very easy to work with.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

What makes them think the house was never correctly permitted? BTW: I would not ever mention to anyone that I had any such thing ever mentioned to me or even thought about it.

 

[billspit]

Where I live they do not go poking around old structures if you are permitting a new one. I guess if they saw something really stupid and dangerous it could be an issue.

 

[FredWanaker]

Today many municipalities close the permits themselves. Back in the 1980's some required that the final be filed with the county after being signed off. I'd start by looking thru his paperwork to see if he has the old permit showing it was signed off. Also, in some parts of the country I have seen permits where multiple homes were on the same permit in a tract, and the county just made a mistake by either missing one on the list, or just listing the permit under the first house on the permit. Does sound like your friend's was a custom home however.

 

[billconner]

I think building codes won't be a problem. Zoning code violations are different. Saw a 2 yr old very upscale house demoed because it was built too close to lake.

 

[chevy3100truck]

I know someone who had a similar issue in my area (BC Canada). They had never passed final inspection on a barn built in the mid 1990s, in 2020 they tried to pull a permit to construct a shop on the same property and got nailed for the previous issue. They had to get the barn inspected & ended up needing to upgrade the electrical to 2020 code standards. Giant headache, but realistically 100% their own fault, they would have passed with no problems back when the barn was built....

 

[oldmachinenut]

here, its pay your $200 and go build it. most times they dont even look up from the newspaper

This

 

[rayra]

With a detached garage structure they may only look into the electrical system they are tying in to. And depends on the inspector as much as the dept / district.
Her trouble may also be proportional to how long she has been in the property, if anyone digs into it. The worst will likely be a demand for inspection and rectifying anything that is not up to safety codes.
Typically a follo-on owner only needs to upgrade the systems they modify. THings are usually fine as is, but if you change anything in a circuit it has to be brought up to current code.

Please let us know what happens.

 

[FredWanaker]

here it is pay double the cost of the permit and meet code. But, the OP's friend really needs to dig to see if the house was finaled. If not for this time but for next.

 

[Pluribus]

Requirements in Washington depend on the AHJ, which is city administered or county administered in unincorporated areas. In Skagit County, it doesn't matter if your house is unpermitted at all. You do still have to have a critical areas study done, but it's not very onerous. As long as you're not trying to make the 2nd building an ADU that the property doesn't qualify for, and you're not disturbing more area than allowed, no problem. Can't speak with authority on other places, but I do know that there are a whole lot of houses in every county in the state that were built without permits. Maybe they raise a stink for areas an unpermitted house was built after permits were required, or maybe they don't. In Skagit, they don't.

For a house 40-ish years old, doubt they're going to condemn it, and it's not like they can put a stop work order on its construction. Might be worth talking to some garage or barn building companies in your/your friend's jurisdiction to ask them about any potential issues there may be.

 

[mousebob]

Thanks again everyone for the advice.

 

[jkeyser14]

If she isn't the original owner she needs to get her title insurance involved.

 

[Sumboodie]

here, its pay your $200 and go build it. most times they dont even look up from the newspaper

Here it's "do whatever you want, it's your land"

Only permits are for driveways.
The driveway one mostly so drainage for borough land is done.

 

[Briancapecoral]

I had to pull a permit for a shed. I was told I couldn’t because of an open permit from having the screened walls of a lanai replaced with acrylic sliding doors 5 years earlier. They wanted the contractor to apply, he wanted more money. I went into office and implied I was the contractor, scheduled the inspection, and everything was fine. The funny thing is we had an enclosed pool installed between the lanai work and shed, and nothing came up about the open permit.

 

[mousebob]

Should this definitely have been caught by the title insurance company?

 

[egdede]

They are looking to see if the seller actually has legitimate ownership (title).

 

[mousebob]

They are looking to see if the seller actually has legitimate ownership (title).

Would the include a closed out permit or occupancy certificate?

 

[egdede]

Not on the title search for my home.

 

[FredWanaker]

it would not be a search of the title company, but the appraiser would probably be in hot water. Even in the 1980's they were supposed to search permits. My guess is that the title co lawyer would look at it, and the blanket coverage in that state, and the type of policy, then make a determination. As I indicated earlier, in years past many locales required the holder of the permit file the final with the county. Some counties did not close the permit unless the owner brought it in. Same in many problems like paid off home loans, the recon was mailed to the owner and it was their responsibility to file it. Otherwise the loan still shows open. First thing I would tell the owner is dig thru your purchase paperwork and see what is in there, then take a look around the garage to see if there is an old permit stapled to the wall.

 

[mousebob]

Thanks, all! I'll update this thread when I have more information.

 

[dcg9381]

However, the main house on his property may have never been correctly permitted. County records show that an initial building permit was pulled in the early 80s, but none of the necessary inspections took place and the permit expired. Despite this the house has been occupied for the last 40+ years without issue. It has power from the utility company. The correct square footage is listed with the county assessor's office. This house sits is on 10+ acres.

What should she expect if she tries to pull a permit to build a detached garage? Is this a nightmare/headache waiting to happen or has it been too long since the house was constructed to worry?

I think there is going to be a ton of variation in answers. Here, they would give zero craps, nor would they look at the house at all.
We only need two types of permits: General development (structure) and septic. I'm sure there are a ton of general development permits in the area that never got closed and if they haven't bugged anyone about the home in 40 years, I'm not sure I'd worry about it.

There are really two types of permits here:
1) "Taxation" - these are permits that are opened and closed without an inspection (general development). They're just a requirement for a plan that shows that you're compliant and they're basically a tax.. No one checks.
2) The real deal - permits that are opened and require assessment during construction or AFTER completion to be finalized.

 

[KJ in VT]

Damn I'm glad I live where I am still free to build and live in my own squallor.