Permitting for Dummies

[pgray007]

I'm about to start finishing my 24 x 24 detached garage. It's currently bare studs with electrical and water, with a sink and lights in the garage area, and a single bulb upstairs and one large space.

I plan to frame a bathroom upstairs, rough plumbing, electrical, and HVAC, and then insulate and drywall the garage area, followed by insulation, drywall, and finishing upstairs.

I'd like to act as "general contractor" and do some of the work myself, sending plumbing and drywall (and possibly insulation and electrical) to contractors. However I'm a bit confused on permitting, and the county (York County, SC) just requires "A sketch plan showing the size and dimension, all heated, unheated, porches , decks, bonus rooms, basement areas, all square footage should be indicated on the sketch plan, wall section detail, roof section detail, floor section detail, foundation section detail. " and some fees and paperwork.

I'd also like to do this project over the next 6-18 months, as time and money allows.

So I'm trying to figure out:

1) Do I pull a building permit, and then let subs (plumbing/electrical/mechanical) pull separate permits as the work is required, or do I need to have my subs lined up when I pull the building permit and do I simultaneously apply for the others?

2) Is the requisite plan a simple floorplan with dimensions for each space, or would I need a framing plan or something more complex?

3) Are there generally time limits to permits, or can you pull one and finish the project in your own good time.

4) Do I need anything related to the existing state of the building, like photographs or original construction plans?

5) Anything I should have prepared or know about before seeking a permit? Any "lessons learned" for first timers?

Thanks for your help!!!

 

[ilovevocs]

Generic answer that you truly were not looking for....

Honestly the best approach would be to contact your building department and ask them those specific questions. Introduce yourself, get a point of contact, have firm answers to move forward.

Some building departments play things loose and others are very stringent from my experience. At the end of the day the inspector has to be the one to approve the work so its best to develop a working relationship with these guys.

 

[matt_i]

Personally, for interior work, I'd line up the contractors as you need them and use them one at a time, since the structure is already built and a finished shell. Recall that the permit process is also to ensure the locality is maximizing the bounds of their property taxation rights. Im not openly suggesting subversion but breaking ground on a new permanent structure and finishing interior garage space are different animals as far as my mind works. Also, take advice from your skilled trades, electrician and pipefitter. If they advise pull their individual trade permits, I would go along with that.

My other advice is "repurposing" an attic space in a single pitch gable roof garage, no matter how steep the pitch is going to get very very hot in summer and very very cold in winter, unless you have made specific arrangements like having a second story already built, or a roof structure like a SIP.

Unfortunately, in my locality my inspector is pretty snappy in answering questions and doesn't have very good people skills, maybe its a lack of focus on customer service, I don't know. I don't take it personally because I'm not trying to do anything wrong, exactly the opposite. So I try to make my question a quick one, boil down to a couple of key points and try to derive what I need from that.

My locality gives 6 months on the original permit, start to final inspection. After that there is some type of extension fee. I've got about a month left and not going to make it

 

[bczygan]

No way I'd pull permits for that. It's all inside work.

Get your subcontractors to come in unmarked vehicles. Bring your materials inside and unload with the doors closed. Don't make too much noise. Do the work to code. Take lots of photos.

Do as much of the work as you can, yourself.

Bill (Builder, Architectural Designer)

 

[pgray007]

Having suffered the wrath of being on "the wrong side of the law" I want to make sure I do this right, especially if there's an insurance-related problem down the line or something like that.

I also understand that the proper answer is "go call the inspector," I want to make sure I'm prepared and not missing something obvious, kind of like "You should brush your teeth before you go to the dentist" or the equivalent.

 

[DekeT]

Your locality has rules all its own. You are the one who lives there, do your homework with the locals.

 

[engineer2]

We never get permits for inside work. Makes your taxes go sky high.

 

[hh76]

Every building department is different. I've had some permits that were handed out without any paperwork at the part-time inspector's home, and some require 7 copies of engineered plan sets.

No way anyone unfamiliar with your exact building department could really advise you, only feed you with random stories about their experience.

 

[Keel]

ecck,
if the building is already built, I'd let your Electrician pull his permit for that work, and the plumber do the same..
I don't think I'd pull one for insulation or drywall work.. unless there is codes for that, and I don't think a garage has any for insulation or drywall,
drywall would if it is attached to a living quarters as it needs a fire stop(most times 5/8 fire stop dry wall on connecting walls)
The bathroom upstairs, why? make it to fancy and the inspector, might question if it's going to be living quarters..
I don't like drywall in a garage, to easy to damage, paint..
the 4x8 plastic sheets at least for the lower part of the walls, as water won't harm it, and you can unscrew it from the wall, if you need to get to an air line or wiring.. no need to mud seams..
if you insulate with sprayed in foam, make damn sure everything you want run(electrical/air/data/etc) is as it ***** running anything after the fact..

 

[pgray007]

Good tips. Plan for the room above is workout/movie room/man cave and emergency guest room. I would have been fine with a urinal and beer fridge, but the wife wants a shower, so there we go. Will condition the upstairs space as well.

I called the county and they said I can pull a permit as the owner and engage trades as needed. Can also keep permit open indefinitely as long as I inspect at least once a year. Docs required are a floorplan and cost estimates for electrical, plumbing, and mechanical. I assume these estimates drive the permit costs? Would one generally include labor when DIY?

Good call on the plastic sheets. Ideally if I could blast out messes with a power washer without damaging the drywall that would be nice.


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[Cyberbear]

With your natural reluctance to be "on the wrong side of the law" you'll need to evaluate your options. Personally, nothing that can't be seen from the street is fair game for DIY projects. No one these days has the nerve to demand proof of jurisdiction before volunteering to accept administrative rules on your own private property. Perhaps playing it safe is the best way to go and keep believing we are all still free to live as we wish in Amerika.

 

[mikegt4]

I'd also like to do this project over the next 6-18 months, as time and money allows.

My experience has been that some jurisdictions allow open ended permits but most have a time limit. My last build (a house) had a 6 month limit. Once the time ran out new permits had to be bought (essentially you started over). They readily admitted that it was all about the money, either through more permits or raised property taxes.

 

[justanengineer]

We never get permits for inside work. Makes your taxes go sky high.

We don't get permits unless we hire contractors or alter structure, the best we get is a signed/scribbled "no permit needed, homeowner maintenance" note. My neighbors who hired everything done were pissed when we did a complete reno on a free note bc they jumped through serious hoops.

 

[engineer2]

At least our village is polite and you just get a note on the door asking to "please come to village hall and get a permit". I go down, play dumb and there is no fine. Luckily our town has no building inspector on staff and uses a hired inspector as needed. Next town over is full of low-lifes and immigrants and they keep 5 full-time inspectors busy.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Homeowner's guides for permitting requirements in Mecklenburg County / Charlotte area:

http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/cou...ment/tools/homeowners/documents/prmtbrchr.pdf

http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/cou...t/tools/homeowners/documents/permitsguide.pdf

edit: I just noticed you're actually in South Carolina, but chances are the county there has similar guides. Check here: https://www.yorkcountygov.com/DevelopmentCoordinatingCenter

 

[pgray007]

That NC guide was helpful (I've been to the SC site you referenced several times). My project is checking several boxes in the "get a permit if you do ***" list (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc). I'm going to DIY most of the project, but will try to find local contractors willing to "check my work" for a few bucks so I can make sure I'm doing it right.

In terms of "the right side of the law," without going deep into a political discussion I'm what I'd term a "pragmatic libertarian." I agree in principle with many of the comments here, but realized in my advancing years that "the man" has way more lawyers, guns, and money than I'll ever have, so I pick my battles. SC is also fairly reasonable on this kind of stuff, so if I can be a good lad and dance to the proper tune without undue nonsense or taxation, all the better.

Homeowner's guides for permitting requirements in Mecklenburg County / Charlotte area:

http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/cou...ment/tools/homeowners/documents/prmtbrchr.pdf

http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/cou...t/tools/homeowners/documents/permitsguide.pdf

edit: I just noticed you're actually in South Carolina, but chances are the county there has similar guides. Check here: https://www.yorkcountygov.com/DevelopmentCoordinatingCenter

 

[ScottsGT]

If you are DIYing it yourself, just price the materials for permit costs. It's all about property taxes and them sending out someone to reappraise it at a higher value. Throw a high price tag and expect a visit. And don't email them. You'll never get an answer. I'm down the road in Richland County and sent an email about pulling a permit for gas lines. Never heard back and actually had my A/C guy pull them for me and he checked my work, made corrections and then called the inspector to come out.
We didn't pull permits for the new appliances, paint and counter tops or the changes in electrical I did myself. If it's inside, just do what you can yourself. Not sure how the insurance company would look at things if something were to happen. So you might be good to CYA on that issue.
SCE&G required permits and the ok from the inspector before they installed the gas meter.

 

[gtae07]

We didn't pull permits for the new appliances, paint and counter tops

Why would those require a permit?

My local authorities were easy to deal with and even publish a "residential inspection guide" that highlights most of the stuff they're looking for. It's not an all-inclusive list (i.e. you still need to build to code) but it points out most of the big things, what they look for at each inspection, what inspections are required, and the local city/county code requirements. I even got away with running two weeks over the time limit and not having to pay the reinspection fee (I had an open ground on final inspection; 2 minute fix), I think because they knew I was doing the work myself. The fees here are very reasonable for "accessory structures" and fences.

 

[engineer2]

Why would those require a permit?

Our building department told me you are required to get a permit for ANY type of repair work no matter how minor. It's all about tax revenue. They charge you for the permit and then your property taxes go up. To that I say FU!

For example:
The previous owner of my house built a deck for $2000 in 1995, permitted and inspected.
It caused the property taxes to go up about $100 a year.
The $100 goes up an average of 3.5% every year.
A total of $2800 in property taxes paid on a deck that cost $2000 to build that is pretty much rotted after 20 years.
This is why people around here avoid permits.

 

[DekeT]

Our building department told me you are required to get a permit for ANY type of repair work no matter how minor. It's all about tax revenue. They charge you for the permit and then your property taxes go up. To that I say FU!

For example:
The previous owner of my house built a deck for $2000 in 1995, permitted and inspected.
It caused the property taxes to go up about $100 a year.
The $100 goes up an average of 3.5% every year.
A total of $2800 in property taxes paid on a deck that cost $2000 to build that is pretty much rotted after 20 years.
This is why people around here avoid permits.

No engineer I know would recommend such a reckless take on the a building process.

 

[ilovevocs]

No engineer I know would recommend such a reckless take on the a building process.

How many do you know?

 

[nadogail]

My $00.2 cents worth.
Everything depends on your location and the work being contemplated.
What is the attitude of your local authority having jurisdiction?

If you start with out a permit, is there a neighbor or enemy why will "rat you out".?

My electric utility will not connect to a panel that has not been permitted and inspected.
So when we upgraded our electric service I pulled an Owner/Builder permit for the new panel.

After it was inspected and the inspector left. We powered up and started on the conduit and circuit for the A/C.

After the A/C circuit was pulled in and energized, the A/C contractor pulled a permit for the A/C. After the A/C was inspected and approved we replaced the sub-panel in the house and made the modifications to the house wiring to install the 60 Amp feed for the induction cooktop.

In short, I pull a permit for what I need to to avoid embarrassment or prosecution.

In my opinion, your best source of info will be someone in your local area, who is in the Building or Remodeling field.

 

[engineer2]

^^^Yup.
Depends on what you are comfortable doing, what town you are in, what your contractor friends are experts at, and if it is visible to prying eyes.
I'm not going to get a permit for anything I know how to do the right way. I guess I'm reckless that way.
But I would get a permit and hire an expert for things like roofing, major plumbing projects, new HVAC, pouring concrete, etc.
My point was our property taxes go up forever on depreciable items.

 

[scatkins]

I've never actually had a rational conversation about this issue. It seems the folks who go to the trouble to always comply with their local are indignant that anyone would suggest other than full permitting is reckless. Then there are those who couldn't be bothered.

Personally, if I'm working on my own stuff I wouldn't pull permits unless I was doing something that expanded square footage or would draw the attention of the authorities. I'm also pretty careful if it major structural but it just depends.

I'm very capable of doing any electrical, mechanical etc to code and in general I do everything well above basic code. That said if it is outside and visible to the authorities such as a block wall I'd do permits.

In my case my home was built before my city was even incorporated. I can't even trace what permits were pulled prior to city incorporation and were handled at a county level. I stopped worrying about permits for minor building mods at that point because there is really no way for anyone in the future to figure out exactly what or when things happened.

There are always those who are going to give you horror stories of what happened to them or usually someone they knew. The reality is within reason there is almost no issue as long as you have work that is done to code.

Then again if I'm paying for work, I'd never work with anyone who didn't pull permits.

 

[pgray007]

So I just got a voicemail from the county and my permit is ready to go for a whopping $45. Considering I faxed everything over on Friday this seems fairly reasonable. I'll post with the inspection process and whatnot as I proceed for the other permit "dummies" that are going through this for the first time.


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[pgray007]

As a quick update, I just passed my framing and plumbing inspections. It took about 6 months due to work commitments (probably have 60 hours invested over the course of that time) but I now have a good knowledge of framing and plumbing and the satisfaction of learning something new.

The inspection took all of 5 minutes. I cleaned up the area, made sure I had everything labeled (when water supply was pressurized, when DWV was filled with water, etc.) in the hopes of looking like I knew what I was doing and it was painless.

 

[captain14]

Did you do a build thread or post photos someplace. I see you started some threads about different aspects of the build.

You know we like pictures.

 

[pgray007]

Did you do a build thread or post photos someplace. I see you started some threads about different aspects of the build.

You know we like pictures.

Once it gets too hot to actually work in the thing I'll start a thread! It's been a very slow process that started in 2012, but due to a fluid work situation things are finally moving along well.

 

[finn]

On the last three real estate transactions I completed (Il., Mi., and Fl.), the paperwork had a place for me to certify with my signature that no unpermitted construction work had been performed on the properties.


Just something to consider, as eventually all property changes hands.

 

[engineer2]

Must be something new on the forms.

 

[Rock knocker]

Must be something new on the forms.

Common in many states for close to 25 years. Maybe you just might not be too aware of these things writ large.

https://www.arhouse.com/pdfs/seller.pdf

 

[alberto]

Anyone that gives advice to not get building permits or inspections where they are required, is giving terrible advice. At some point the piper will have to be paid. I for one am very leery of buying property that has work done without permits. There are way too many people with more ambition than talent trying to do construction work that they've never done to trust them not to need an adult look at their work to approve it.

So, well done to pgray who didn't fall prey to bad advice and actually got permits, did the work himself, got it inspected and passed with flying colors. Congrats!

 

[Marctrees]

Having suffered the wrath of being on "the wrong side of the law" I want to make sure I do this right, especially if there's an insurance-related problem down the line or something like that.

I also understand that the proper answer is "go call the inspector," I want to make sure I'm prepared and not missing something obvious, kind of like "You should brush your teeth before you go to the dentist" or the equivalent.

Change your underwear and scrub yer **** before going to visit the Building office.

Otherwise, listen to the guys here.

Oh, AND brush yer teeth also ya.

But mostly the **** cause that's where they're gonna go. Marc

 

[engineer2]

Maybe you just might not be too aware of these things

No need for insults, I just haven't seen it on contracts in Illinois, but I see it was revised 01/06. I don't know where you are from, but Illinois is not like California where unpermitted work is scrutinized. In Illinois, the government doesn't get involved in that, but some municipalities or counties might be more strict. Around here it's all about avoiding the tax man.

 

[MushCreek]

As much as I believe you should be able to do what you want on your own property, I am an advocate of permits. Why? My BIL's finished basement was flooded due to a bad sump pump, and the insurance company refused to pay because the work was never permitted. Not that big a deal, but what if the house had burned down due to faulty wiring, instead? I'd like to be able to build a shack in the woods, not insure it, and just get on with life, but you can't get away with that in 99.9% of the country these days.

I've been through a LOT of this stuff recently, having spent the last 4 years building my house and barn, all duly permitted and inspected. At least the permits here in SC were cheap, and the inspections very light. They didn't even do a final on the barn electrical, signing off on it without even coming out here! By comparison, I had a friend build a house in CT, and the fees, permits, variances, etc., came to $66,000! I'd be much more tempted to cheat in an environment like that.

Same goes for taxes- some areas tax you to death on everything, other places (like here) are much more reasonable. My barn didn't change my assessment at all. If I were to turn it into true living space, it would be a different story.

 

[engineer2]

and the insurance company refused to pay because the work was never permitted.

Did the policy specifically state unpermitted work is excluded? Perhaps if varies by location? The few insurance claims I filed, such questions never came up.

 

[Norcal]

A lot of States have real estate disclosure laws, failure to disclose defects when a property is sold, like unpermitted work, buried tanks, and so on & the buyer is able to prove the seller knew about it, means a lawsuit could end up costing the seller a lot of money.

 

[MushCreek]

The insurance company didn't pay because there was no record of a finished basement.

 

[Rock knocker]

Maybe you just might not be too aware of these things

No need for insults, I just haven't seen it on contracts in Illinois

Kind of funny, I slightly question you knowledge about some very common forms, and you cry about insults. Yet here we have you insult a whole town because you think they're low-lifes and (worse yet!!!) immigrants (I assume by that they have not made the mistake of being pastie white like you).

Next town over is full of low-lifes and immigrants and they keep 5 full-time inspectors busy.

 

[jetnow1]

There are bad inspectors and there are great inspectors, just like any other job. As a small contractor I find that most are reasonable as long as you follow the rules. I have worked in one town where the inspector was such a jerk that all the subs charged a 20%
additional tax due to dealing with him, but much more often I have found the inspectors
willing to offer advise and suggestions to make my projects better.
Yes it is an expense but it also protects you and makes the insurance company pay if there is a problem down the road, and here I know realtors check with the building department to see if permits have been pulled, so you pay up front or lose on resale.
That said I often get told by clients not to pull permits as they don't want their taxes to go up. If it is a small non structural job with no new plumbing , heat or electric I will
go along with it but if it involves structural changes or new mechanicals I want it inspected to cover myself.