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pex,foam???

Dave Maxwell

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OK after reading I have a few direct questions. On a five inch poor after building is up tp temp does it matter if the tubing is on the bottom or middle. Looking at efficiency and such. Should I use 1/2 oxygen barrier? For a fabrication garage and such do I need the 25 or 15 psi foam board? What is the difference in the oxygen barrier tubing over durapex? How far apart do I need to run my lines? 42x72 building.
 
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Dave Maxwell

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I plan to bolt stuff down later on, so having tubing at bottom helps me. Do I put the 2foam inch foamboard two foot down vertically along perimeter?
 

matouse3

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OK after reading I have a few direct questions. On a five inch poor after building is up tp temp does it matter if the tubing is on the bottom or middle. Looking at efficiency and such. Should I use 1/2 oxygen barrier? For a fabrication garage and such do I need the 25 or 15 psi foam board? What is the difference in the oxygen barrier tubing over durapex? How far apart do I need to run my lines? 42x72 building.

You will get conflicting answers on the top/middle question. I stapled mine right to the foam as did many other people/pros on here. I didn't see much of an advantage to hanging on the wire and suspending other than a shorter response time, which didn't matter to me. I also DID NOT want to even risk hitting a line with the saw cuts.

You should use 1/2 inch oxygen barrier pex. Google it if you want details on why, but it mainly has to do with the oxidation of the pumps in your system.

I would use 25psi 2" foam. The cost difference from the 15 is nominal ($1 per sheet) and I felt much better about the strength of the 25 that I put in.

I wouldn't exceed 12" spacing with your 1/2" pex. In my build, I put the outer two lines 6" apart and then moved to 12" spacing for the rest. This is a general plan, you should get a heat load analysis if you want to make sure you are adequately supplying your building with heat.

Good luck.

My build: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152392
 
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Dave Maxwell

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Need to check I to the heat load. I did a free one online but didn't say much about tube placement. Had alot about insulation variables and such though
 

Executive

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There's a new product out now. It's a foam with a hard plastic top that allows you to embed the pex and arrange it in the pattern you want.

Look up RAZ panel. This is the way to go. It includes the foam, vapor barrier, and retaining system for the per.

Chris
 

maxspeed96ct

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yes you want the oxygen barrier. Rest of info is in other threads on here, do some quick searching and see whats specific to your size and etc.
 

matouse3

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Looks like the price for that RAZ panel (looks good by the way) is about $1.5 per sq ft. Compared to 2" foam board (at about $20 per sheet) which runs about .62 per sq ft. I could never justify that kind of price increase for the job.

You can get moisture barrier (10mil poly) for a couple hundred bucks--I think you would have to get this anyway with the RAZ panels and I don't think the joints are moisture tight. Foam board material is a moisture barrier too, but you still should put at least a layer of 6mil poly under it.
You can also rent a stapler and staples for about a hundred. The staples held very well and never popped out and I could put wherever I wanted. Unless I was doing a huge job and money was no object, I just don't think that RAZ is the way to go unless the price comes down.
 

HoosierBuddy

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Regarding the placement of the PEX in the concrete slab, I just don't see how it could matter that much. Polystyrene is a terrible heat conductor so heat loss from the slab will (mostly) go to the air above regardless of the PEX placement. So, the only consideration is maximizing the heat transfer from the pex to the concrete. If the pex is surrounded in concrete, you've probably done all you can do. In other words, you wouldn't want the PEX laying directly on the high density polystyrene, but it would matter very little if it had 1/2" concrete under it or 2 1/2" concrete under it as far as how much heat would flow to the concrete at a given temperature differential.

Phil
 

ShiftedSolutions

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I actually just installed the radiant flooring in my new pole barn. Go to www.blueridgecompany.com they manufacture the pex and sell every possible part needed. Plus, if you buy from them they will send you a diagram with how many runs to put in and how to lay them out according the size and layout of your building...
 

Highbeam

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Don't worry about heat loss calculations and btu mumbo jumbo at this stage. That's for sizing the boiler.

As stated earlier, use 1/2" barrier pex, 12" spacing and at the bottom of the pour is fine. What wasn't mentioned is that you need to keep the runs close to 300 feet in total length and within 10% of other runs. Respect the minimum bending radius of the pex which in my case was 6", you don't want to kink it. You can and should buy the pex in the handy 330 foot rolls which conveniently provide you with a 300 foot loop plus some scrap for the ends.

I like 25psi foam, it is plenty strong and available, a 6" thick slab only weighs 0.5 psi so you have many many more psi of strength for your interior loads. I chose the cheaper expanded polystyrene (EPS) rated for underslab installs. I also installed 6 mil vapor barrier under the foam. I then layed down the wire mesh with 6" squares and used zip ties to fasten the pex to the wire. Honestly, as with all pours, that mesh and the pex mostly ended up on the bottom of the slab.

Vertical insulation is not needed in my climate since we don't get frozen ground but I did insulate the edges with 2" XPS.
 
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Dave Maxwell

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When my cement is only 5 inch and I have two inch foam under for a total of 7 inches why do I need yo go 2 foot down in sides? What is the Owens Corning foamular? Eps. Xps?
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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"Don't worry about heat loss calculations and btu mumbo jumbo at this stage. That's for sizing the boiler."

This creates a lot of work for us, but we prefer to do a heat load upfront as this is and has been the accepted practice for a hundred years or so.

We have installed truck loads of barrier PEX tubing. Non-barrier has its place but not in this forum. That does lead us back to the heat load however, as the heat source often dictates whether an oxygen barrier PEX is appropriate or not. The heat source - presumably a boiler - sized for the heat load.

Generally, 12" on center spacing will do the job, but the heat load will also dictate tube spacing, as more tube generally lowers the design water temperature. The lower the temperature the lower the operating cost especially if your design will benefit from lower design temperatures such as condensing boilers, ground source heat pumps and even properly controlled wood boilers.

Suspending the PEX in the slab will also lower the heat load, increase potential output and response time, but we still don't do it in most applications, following the principle of diminishing returns.

Variable tube spacing is hardly ever necessary and should not be followed as a rule of thumb. When we do use tighter tube spacing, it is for comfort (in residential spaces near large windows) or to overcome an unusually high load (such as a large garage door).

In the typical garage found in this forum, no variable tube spacing is needed or even beneficial, I am much more interested in the pattern of tube and the flow therein.

A proper heat load performed on dedicated software will produce accurate data for PEX tube size, length, pattern and boiler output.

Even loop lengths are desirable if you have an open floor plan and especially is you are using an inexpensive copper manifold without the benefit of flow control/balancing, but you hardly "need" to keep lengths at a certain length if for instance, you have an office to cover with 100' loop. In space heating applications where people are not sitting or even present tube loop length and space may vary considerably for a variety of reasons.

We generally use 25# XPS, stapling 1/2" barrier PEX on top and wire or bar on top of all to finish. The heat load and application dictate the details.

Perimeter insulation is the most important, but whether it goes down, out or in, is irrelevant. If you think of the frost line (normally thought of as down) you get a good idea of where the insulation needs to be. Better to double the insulation at the perimeter than to over-insulate the middle of the slab floor instance. Sometimes the the insulation is run down the inside or outside to "protect" the foundation from frost, but it is by design sitting below the line.

We prefer shallow frost protected foundations that answer most of the concerns for heat loss, radiant performance and foundation integrity.
 

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Highbeam

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When I read through all that, I got: 12" spacing, 1/2" barrier pex, 2" 25 psi foam, and even pipe lengths. The heat load calc adds little or nothing at this stage.
 
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Dave Maxwell

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I am puting the foam board down the inside of the 2x8 splash board that Morton put up. Or am I suppose to put the foam board on the outside of the 2x8. I planned on puting dirt against the outside and foam board on the inside. Then but the floor foam board against it and tape
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Design a lot of radiant floor systems there in the "Sound" High Beam? Does it get cold there?

Heat loads are discounted by people in-the-trade, every day, but the novice is usually not so bold. Kudos for courage...or wait, it's not your building, your trade, or skin off your nose. I tell all my clients to choose their contractor by his heat load. This requirement eliminates 9 of 10 candidates...all the unqualified and maybe a couple good guessers.

So, I am humbled by your astute conclusions. Thanks for reading.
 
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Dave Maxwell

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Should I put plastic on top of the foam board. My plan as of now is the 2 inch Owens 25psi foamular under slab with staggered seams and same material on sides. Encasing the cement in foamboard. The foam will go 19 inches below the slab on the sides. Getting a kit from blue ridge I think. Are there blueprints any good
 
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Dave Maxwell

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2012-07-09_19-49-06_243.jpg
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Nice job on the perimeter insulation, if I could only insulate one thing, this would be it. In fact we designed many commercial buildings using just this sort of method and perhaps a little thicker depending on the climate.

The plastic goes on the crushed rock, insulation, tube and concrete. Dan does alright, not as good as me, but alright ;-).

All online distributors are limited by their inventory...as I was, when running a radiant floor distribution company back in the 90's.

By the way. Hydronic radiant floor heating is the best way to heat most slab-on-grade buildings. Congrats!
 
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Dave Maxwell

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I got to cut strips for the post yet. Since I'm on 9 foot centers with 8 foot sheets. What do I seam them together with. Some type of special tape?
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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We don't unless you are having trouble keeping in place. If hand shoveling, I don't think you can go wrong. You just want it in place until the cement is in.
 

Highbeam

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No Badger, I'm not a professional radiant heat guy. I am a professional engineer though with a stamp, often having to cut through the **** of the trades to get to the real meat and potatoes of what needs to be done instead of what some trade wants to do to try and squeeze me for extra money.

We agree on most everything except for this heat load calc that is absoulutely not necessary until you size your boiler. You keep pushing it for the sake of your business. Must be a real cash cow eh?

You surely must be educated, a licensed engineer yourself?
 
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Dave Maxwell

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Do I put plastic between foam and outside dirt. On the vertical. Plan on puting it under floor for sure. Just not site about the vertical. Guess I could wrap it and leave it long to tuck under later. Have 6 inches more fill to bring in after walls are done
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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I make a fair living.

If you are a professional engineer, you won't mind if I give people free professional engineering advice (without the benefit of a PE). My daughter is a mechanical engineer and I have hired and fired several. If you need a stamp I can help.

I still don't see the advantage of skipping the heat load, as it should be done and qualifies the vendor or installer by any consumer.

I am an advocate for heat loads. I am also a licensed mechanical contractor, licensed master plumber, master of steam and hot water in Minneapolis and St. Paul. I was a certified radiant designer before RPA went to IAPMO (I think the code officials and PE are intimidated by people with real experience in the field on occasion).

Your a smart guy too, but what's your point? If you need a heat load, do it first. If you don't think you need a heat load, or you think and tankless water heater is a good substitute for a boiler, there is no help for you.

Get it cheap, get-r-done, is not a professional strategy.

And hey, thanks for asking.
 
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Dave Maxwell

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What plastic do you guys recommend. Going to wrap the foamboards in it on the vertical pieces. Then under the floor after I get more fill brought in
 

Highbeam

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If you are a professional engineer, you won't mind if I give people free professional engineering advice (without the benefit of a PE).

That's the thing, you aren't an engineer. You may have stayed at a holiday inn last night though. Some of us have earned that title.

I still don't see the advantage of skipping the heat load, as it should be done and qualifies the vendor or installer by any consumer. I am an advocate for heat loads.

So the deal is that you make your living selling these heat loads. You are biased then to think that everybody needs a heat load all the time. Since you are no longer a valid source for recommending whether a heat load is needed or not, we must use our own brains to decide if a heat load calc is needed.

Lots of people come here looking for help at the pipe laying stage and there is no reason at all to do the heat load calc at that stage. That is unless you are pushing your product. At what point does this become spam?

I do agree that a heat load calc is helpful at the time of boiler sizing to optimize the boiler. Even then, well, most people don't do it and they get along just fine. As we have seen here on this site, the heat load calcs can return varying results anyway so it is an approximate guess anyways right?

Stick to giving good advice about how to do things. Avoid spamming your service out and rather than attack me, (yes- you started it) try and answer my question about why somebody should be wasting time with a heat load calc when all they want to do is get the floor ready.
 
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