Pex question

[sti491]

I am purchasing a 1987 house that has already had the Quest plumbing for the entire house replaced with Pex. The house has an awesome garage about 35 ft from the house crawl space where the Pex water shut off is.

Garage already has 100amp service, but no water for a hose or cable for TV or internet. It's a bit too far with the metal siding for WIFI to make it from the house. I want to run both H20 and cable to garage.

In central NC the frost line is only 6", and I am going over my septic system so I can't go very deep. The elec service is in conduit in the same place. I intend to put this run pretty close to it. If I go about 6', do I need to insulate the buried outdoor Pex piping? What about sleeving it with PVC or smaller diameter black flex pipe that is sort of like french drain Pipe?

I have so much to buy to equip my Garage and get the house set up I want to do this as inexpensively as possible. I will do the job myself. I am not too worried about protecting the burred Pex from future puncture like aerating the lawn or whatever, as I am the one doing all that and will know where it is.

If I do have to sleve it in some type of conduit for freeze protection, I know it is NG to put water pipes and electric in the same conduit. Is it OK to put the TV cable in with Pex Pipe?

For ease of install and lowest cost I prefer to just bury the TV cable and Pex 6", cover it with dirt, grass seed and call it a day. I figure if it ever does leak in the future it will be easier to tell where that way. But, I don't want to finish the job only to have it burst with the first hard freeze. House is in Greensboro, NC area.

What do you guys think?

 

[yeldogt]

Finding the code for the depth should be easy -- are you in an area with inspections?

I'm rebuilding a house ......All of my services are in the same trench -- I think they are at 40". The house is in PA .. so you don't need 6'

 

[hefnerconstructionlc]

Well I would think about the same depth the waterline feeding your house is set at. If that is also 6 inches and works fine, then theoretically it should be fine. PEX is designed to expand and contract to many times it's original size, so it's pretty durable stuff even if you get a freeze. I would be more concerned with the brass fittings on the ends that will pull the heat in during the winter time and cause problems. The PEX itself is an insulator so it should not pull much heat from the ground. You could also think about doing a tiny drip every so often to keep water moving inside the piping if you get worried about extreme cold and freezing.

As an explanation when I say heat in the ground,what that really means is the lack of heat in the ground and it's getting colder and freezing. It's the piping material serving as a conduit and pulling whatever temperature is in the ground into the piping itself.

I would just look at historical records and see what the average soil conditions are in the wintertime and go from there. If 6 inches is not deep enough, then you're gonna have to go just a little deeper. I would also suggest flagging it off should you have to excavate down the road for repairs. Flagging tape will help you know you're getting close. Good luck.

 

[tjdux]

Mayby just go 12 inches down and then you likely dont need to worry about freezing. I wouldn't worry about putting pex in conduit and the data line should be fine anywhere really. If your worried put it an inch or 2 above the water when filling the trench.

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[finn]

Water should be below the frost line. Here, that's 48".

Other utilities should be 18", if I remember correctly, although our internet and Satellite TV providers put their cables just below the surface, unless crossing a driveway.

Per isn't normally used for direct burial. They use the black poly water pipe for that, usually in a larger diameter than pex to minimize pressure drops in long runs.

 

[59 wagon man]

me personally would go a minimum of 12" deep (even in fla with no chance of frost it is 12" of clean fill above a waterline. I would run either 3/4 or preferably 1" pvc sch 40 . pex will limit the volume of water due to internal restrictions

 

[sti491]

Finding the code for the depth should be easy -- are you in an area with inspections?

I'm rebuilding a house ......All of my services are in the same trench -- I think they are at 40". The house is in PA .. so you don't need 6'

The frost line here is only 6" per web search. It will not be inspected by anyone but me. Thanks!

 

[sti491]

Well I would think about the same depth the waterline feeding your house is set at. If that is also 6 inches and works fine, then theoretically it should be fine. PEX is designed to expand and contract to many times it's original size, so it's pretty durable stuff even if you get a freeze. I would be more concerned with the brass fittings on the ends that will pull the heat in during the winter time and cause problems. The PEX itself is an insulator so it should not pull much heat from the ground. You could also think about doing a tiny drip every so often to keep water moving inside the piping if you get worried about extreme cold and freezing.

As an explanation when I say heat in the ground,what that really means is the lack of heat in the ground and it's getting colder and freezing. It's the piping material serving as a conduit and pulling whatever temperature is in the ground into the piping itself.

I would just look at historical records and see what the average soil conditions are in the wintertime and go from there. If 6 inches is not deep enough, then you're gonna have to go just a little deeper. I would also suggest flagging it off should you have to excavate down the road for repairs. Flagging tape will help you know you're getting close. Good luck.

Good advice. Thanks!

 

[sti491]

me personally would go a minimum of 12" deep (even in fla with no chance of frost it is 12" of clean fill above a waterline. I would run either 3/4 or preferably 1" pvc sch 40 . pex will limit the volume of water due to internal restrictions

Thanks for the input.

I was thinking to use the same size Pex that's used for the main water shutuff in the crawl space. I am not there, but my guess is it's 3/4", and some of the red and blue lines throughout the house may be 1/2". I am not sure without being there. The house was recently completely re-plumbed by a licensed plumber, and my home inspector liked the quality of the job. The flow and pressure thru-out the house is good, normal. There is a pressure regulator in the crawl space.

The distance those new Pex lines run throughout the house is about the same as it is to and within the garage. That led me to think that using the same size Pex to the garage would be fine from a volume/pressure standpoint (?).



 

[EnduroRdr]

You said you have to cross the septic - what does that mean?
If you are just crossing a sewer drain pipe, then find the pipe first, mark it, then stop when close (if using a trenching machine) and dig the part at the sewer pipe by hand so you can go under it.
This way you can trench down deeper than the 6" - I'd probably go at least 12" deep and in NC.

If you mean you have to cross the septic tank itself or the gravel drain bed - then I'd just go around all that. Even if you have to go another 50' or even 100' out of the way to go around - the Pex and cable are cheap, fixing sewer is not cheap.


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[Kaizen]

If you are limited on funds i'd bury pipe as a sleeve for the pex. Bury it deep don't get lazy. Then when you get money to buy the pex pull it in. Pex will freeze and return to normal at some point. The fittings will split. I ran sprinkler pipe out to a corner of my yard with a hose faucet on the end. before winter I blow it out like my sprinkler system. If yours is at an incline or decline you can just add an underground valve to open and let it drain out at the lowest point.

 

[JerryB]

As to your WiFi: My shop/office is about 150' from my house. The wired internet connection and WiFi router are in my office. While I could put a WiFi router in the house, the supplier charges extra for the drop, even if I supply the router.

Instead, I use a WiFi range extender. It cost about $50 at Best Buy. Only needs to be plugged into a power outlet, and works great. No wiring or additional router involved and no added supplier charges. I got mine at Best Buy, but they are available everywhere.

Just saw a couple from Amazon and Walmart for $20 & $40 respectively.

 

[sti491]

You said you have to cross the septic - what does that mean?
If you are just crossing a sewer drain pipe, then find the pipe first, mark it, then stop when close (if using a trenching machine) and dig the part at the sewer pipe by hand so you can go under it.
This way you can trench down deeper than the 6" - I'd probably go at least 12" deep and in NC.

If you mean you have to cross the septic tank itself or the gravel drain bed - then I'd just go around all that. Even if you have to go another 50' or even 100' out of the way to go around - the Pex and cable are cheap, fixing sewer is not cheap.


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I have to figure that out. I know the existing electrical wires in conduit runs from the house to the garage "over the septic" about 6" deep and has been that way successfully for 7 years. My thought is to make a trench (by hand shovel or by Spectrum Cable trencher) parallel to it maybe a foot over or so, to be sure I don't hit it and become a crispy critter.

 

[sti491]

As to your WiFi: My shop/office is about 150' from my house. The wired internet connection and WiFi router are in my office. While I could put a WiFi router in the house, the supplier charges extra for the drop, even if I supply the router.

Instead, I use a WiFi range extender. It cost about $50 at Best Buy. Only needs to be plugged into a power outlet, and works great. No wiring or additional router involved and no added supplier charges. I got mine at Best Buy, but they are available everywhere.

Just saw a couple from Amazon and Walmart for $20 & $40 respectively.

I might try that. The current owner parks a huge RV in the workshop. He uses an extender to get WIFI from the house. He said that works well in his RV when parked in the workshop driveway, but not parked inside the workshop due to the metal walls (?). I need a cable in the workshop for TV regardless. My results may be different from his once we move in.

 

[sti491]

If you are limited on funds i'd bury pipe as a sleeve for the pex. Bury it deep don't get lazy. Then when you get money to buy the pex pull it in. Pex will freeze and return to normal at some point. The fittings will split. I ran sprinkler pipe out to a corner of my yard with a hose faucet on the end. before winter I blow it out like my sprinkler system. If yours is at an incline or decline you can just add an underground valve to open and let it drain out at the lowest point.

Good point on the connections failing before the pex pipe. I believe I can run one length of Pex with no connection fittings except under the crawl space and inside the workshop, or right near it. That may help things. Good to know. I did not realize Pex pipe itself could completely freeze and return to normal afterwards without splitting... but I need running water either way!

 

[Kaizen]

Good point on the connections failing before the pex pipe. I believe I can run one length of Pex with no connection fittings except under the crawl space and inside the workshop, or right near it. That may help things. Good to know. I did not realize Pex pipe itself could completely freeze and return to normal afterwards without splitting... but I need running water either way!

Within limits of course. I have some in my basement and only downside is if you can reach the frozen part you can't thaw it easy like copper with a torch. And it takes longer to thaw on its own because it doesn't conduct heat like coppper. If you do get a break you're screwed if it's not in pvc underground


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[johnnyradiant]

I'd be interested in sleeving for abrasion sake when it is only 6" deep. 35' of pipe for a sleeve is not going to make a world of difference to the overall budget of making the house work. Here in Canada where everything is cheaper I'd be into the sleeve for less than $35. Heatguns work on Pex. A kink can be fixed by heating the pex till it is crystal clear then let it cool down and you're good to go.

 

[Bill_b]

For the Internet. Why it run a length of cat5 at the same time? That way you can just put a router out in the garage.

 

[Firebrick43]

Dig the whole thing by hand and go under the septic line. I dug a 50~ ft trench several years ago 4' deep in less than 6 hours with plenty of breaks. It's really not that hard.

 

[sti491]

I'd be interested in sleeving for abrasion sake when it is only 6" deep. 35' of pipe for a sleeve is not going to make a world of difference to the overall budget of making the house work. Here in Canada where everything is cheaper I'd be into the sleeve for less than $35. Heatguns work on Pex. A kink can be fixed by heating the pex till it is crystal clear then let it cool down and you're good to go.

I am thinking this is the direction I am going. Thx.

 

[sti491]

Dig the whole thing by hand and go under the septic line. I dug a 50~ ft trench several years ago 4' deep in less than 6 hours with plenty of breaks. It's really not that hard.

I think you are right.

 

[sti491]

For the Internet. Why it run a length of cat5 at the same time? That way you can just put a router out in the garage.

Yes. To have cable TV and Internet/wifi in workshop I believe I will need to run cat5 from the house modem to a second router in the garage AND TV cable from a splitter in the house, probably with a small amp/signal booster (that Spectrum will supply), to the garage.

So 3 things to burry underground to the workshop: Cat5, TV cable, and Pex water pipe probably sleeved in PVC or something else as deep as I can hand dig carefully not to hit any part of my septic avoiding the already buried conduit sleeved electrical lines so I don't die doing the project.

The frost line there is 6". I'll drill a hole through the crawlspace block at whatever depth I can get to, seal it with caulk so it's buried all the way to the workshop. The workshop is Pole Building with a 6" slab that I do not want to mess with. For a few inches it will come out of the ground right at the workshop exterior wall, to go through the aluminum siding to the inside, which is insulated. I will insulate that part of the water line heavily. The two hose bibs for the workshop will be inside the garage not outside it for added freeze protection. If there is ever a 10 year freeze or a crazy arctic blast I can alway let the water line drip a bit to keep some flow going during the worst of it.

That's where I am at after thinking about it with all the great input here.

Thanks everyone. Look forward to sharing and getting more good input as my son & I equip the shop and decide on a layout!

 

[CJ7VFR]

Dig the whole thing by hand and go under the septic line. I dug a 50~ ft trench several years ago 4' deep in less than 6 hours with plenty of breaks. It's really not that hard.

Depends on where you live and the type of soil/ground you have!

Where I live in the central part of New Jersey, you can only dig about 14 to 18 inches down before you hit hard clay and red shale.

There is no way in hell you could dig a 4 foot deep trench, 50 feet long, by hand! Even using power equipment can take hours to do that.

I wish my ground was more like yours. Just to plant a tree or whatever, that requires a two foot deep hole, 3 feet in diameter, can take an hour as you try to bust your way thru that shale. And then when your done, you have to put new top soil in the hole so your trees will at least have some actual dirt to start growing in.

Jim

 

[fourjeepin]

You probably know this, but be sure to put in a shutoff valve in your crawl space for this new line. I agree that 3/4" should be sufficient. Disagree 100% on the ability to dig a 4'x50' trench in a day. At that depth, I probably couldn't get 5 ft long with the clay and rocks I have here.

 

[johnnyradiant]

p.s. to my first comment. Prices in Canada are generally no where near close to the same, they are more. I was thinking one thing and 'writing' another.

 

[Tmart86]

just remember to add surge protection on both sides of your Cable and Cat5e line to be safe.

 

[Falcon67]

For the Internet. Why it run a length of cat5 at the same time? That way you can just put a router out in the garage.

This - just pull some Cat5 cable with the coax. The limit on a run is - technically - 330'. Plug another wifi router into the far end. You'll likely be glad you did later when you decide that cable is BS and you just stream things, or switch to an OTA DVR type setup for local TV.

 

[JRC3]

I would run an extra data cable. I'm currently in the same boat and gonna do an extra for surveillance cameras. Cameras on the garage pointed down the drive and at the house give you a greater perspective. You just need some Cat5/Cat6 to BNC Coaxial Connectors, they are cheap. Either way wire is also cheap and a little redundancy with an extra run can't hurt.